To the LGBTQ Community: I'm sorry

Roger J Carlson · Sep 10, 2015

I've been agonizing over this post for quite some time. There's so much to say, but it comes down to this: As a Christian, I am sorry. Sorry for the hate. Sorry for apathy. And most of all, sorry for the smug superiority that Evangelical Christians have shown the LGBTQ community for – well – forever.

It just isn't right, and it's past time for me to say so. It's past time for Christians everywhere to say so.

My journey from a cluelessly sincere Love-The-Sinner-Hate-The-Sin bigot (let's call it as it is) to a Queer-Ally has been a long one. Mostly it happened here on the boards of AW with the gentle nudging and wholly undeserved friendship of Mac and Lisa. Either of them could have shut me down (rhetorically and literally) any time, but instead treated me with graciousness and kindness, and helped me find my way at my own speed.

That graciousness is what should characterize Evangelical Christianity, but it just doesn’t. And shame on us.

I had hopes earlier this year when the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage. Maybe Christians can begin to move past it since it's the law of the land. By and large, Christians follow the law. But the recent events with Kim Davis, the County Clerk in Kentucky, have dashed those hopes. A disturbingly large number of Christians show a distressing lack of understanding of both US law and God's law.

To my shame, I've been quietly supportive of LGBTQ rights, but I can't be quiet any longer.

So, to the LGBTQ community: I'm sorry. I'm not asking to forgive all the hurts you've been dealt by all Christians everywhere. That's not my right to ask, nor your power to grant. But forgive me – one Christian – for being silent for too long. For not showing God's love as I should. For not caring. For not speaking up.

Maryn · Sep 10, 2015

Roger, do you know how much we love and admire you? Because you should. I wish every person of faith were more like you.

Maryn, with a hug and a trans family member

William Haskins · Sep 10, 2015

what a wonderful post. i have never found you hateful in the least, and i know you have agonized over this for a while.

you're a good man.

KTC · Sep 10, 2015

Thank you. I'm wavering between elation and turmoil at the moment. I'm so incredibly happy that I have decided finally to be myself. The hate thrust upon me by my parents can no longer hurt me. I have incredible support...and this month marks the 1 1/2 year anniversary of my relationship with an incredible man who accepts every single broken and fragile thing about me. And the religious zealots who are spewing hate are causing me to backslide to that place I said I would never allow myself to go to...but the support is just as strong...so I'm balancing on a hot knife edge. Because we DO take it personally...at least those of us who were stomped down and abused and hated in our formative years for being something we had no control over do. I'm sure you can tell by this non-sense post that I am struggling. So to have read your post...well, truly...it means the world to me. I just want happiness. I had moments of happiness in my past. But for the past two years I have been insanely happy...just to finally be who I am. I turn 49 in 3 days. I am so happy I didn't wait too long and miss out at knowing this kind of peace. Sorry for the jumbled up post.

Thank you, Roger.

Kylabelle · Sep 10, 2015

Roger, as little as I really know you, I am still very grateful to be connected with you, and I have tremendous respect for the place you've come to and the road you've traveled. Bless you always, and thank you.

Underdawg47 · Sep 10, 2015

Roger that was a wonder post. I wish there were more Christians in the world like you. As a gay man who was born and raised in Kentucky not far from where Kim Davis is using her religion to deny gay people their rights, it is awesome to hear a Christian stand up against intolerance and hate.

shakeysix · Sep 10, 2015

Not an easy thing for you to write but it goes a long way towards quelling the anger and bitterness I am beginning to feel towards a religion that I grew up embracing.
"As I have loved you so you must love one another." He didn't say should or might or could. He said must and sometimes it is derned hard to love those who cannot fathom love. Thanks, Rodge. I will try to be a better Christian. God knows no one in my family ever hated any one. I can't let myself become a hater. --s6

Alan Yee · Sep 11, 2015

Roger, your post was wholly unnecessary, but I wholly appreciated it. Really, you have nothing to apologize for. People change all the time, whether for better or for worse. Sometimes it takes the perspectives and experiences of others for us to realize how limiting our own perspectives and experiences can be.

As you know, I grew up on this forum, where I met many friends who helped me while I was coming to terms with being gay, long before I was able to confide in anyone offline. It's been almost 10 years since I realized I was gay, but just in that time I've seen attitudes toward the LGBTQ community change rather quickly. Prime example: my mother, whose eyes opened up to the realities of LGBTQ after I came out to her almost 4 years ago when I was 20. Although I did grow up as a church-attending Christian for most of my early childhood, I quickly lost my faith after I discovered my sexual orientation. I have to admit I continue to have a knee-jerk reaction to Christianity because of the attitudes of some of its loudest adherents. However, Christians like you help remind me not to make snap judgments about people of faith and to question my knee-jerk reactions before I say anything that could hurt people who are in fact my allies.

BenPanced · Sep 12, 2015

One more voice in the wilderness is always welcome to hear.

cmhbob · Sep 12, 2015

Well said, Roger. Speaking as the husband of an evangelical holiness pastor, I agree with you, on all counts. Well, the general counts. I can't speak for you personally. But as for Christians? Yeah. You're on target.

DancingMaenid · Sep 12, 2015

I appreciate your post.

I don't think you need to feel ashamed for being a "quiet" ally, but I think it's great that you want to be more outspoken. I'm not a Christian, but I do have respect for a lot of Christian beliefs and Christian people. I think it's a shame any time that hateful, extreme, or exclusionary people decide they can speak on behalf of a faith and control the discourse. People who have more loving, forward thinking beliefs should have a louder voice. I don't think any religious person has a responsibility to single-handedly shut down bigots or extremists, but as a whole, I think a lot of good can be done by religious people standing up for the positive values they believe in.

J.S.F. · Sep 13, 2015

Roger, FWIW, I've never found you hateful in the least. I'm your typical white and cisgender straight dude, and it also took me a long time to understand what the LGBTQ community, specifically the transgender community, has been going through. It was only after I became online friends with a transwoman--who is a totally terrific person--that my eyes were opened...and I'm not religious at all nor have I ever been. That friendship was what prompted me to write a novel about the subject, but more than that, open my mind and heart to the possibilities all people carry within them. We all have that potential to do good in the world and see the good in others. I will try to see that good, and it's posts like yours that have underscored my own personal feelings.

Roxxsmom · Sep 13, 2015

This post is a nice reminder that hearts and minds do change, and that kindness and patience work better than scorn and anger. It's hard, because my inclination when I feel that someone is attacking something about me or someone I love is to attack back, not with meanness as such, but with logic and analysis and data.

I don't think I've ever convinced anyone to rethink their position on anything.

Roger J Carlson · Sep 14, 2015

J.S.F. said:
Roger, FWIW, I've never found you hateful in the least...

Thanks. To you and everyone here. I've never ever intended to be hateful.

But I called my early self a "bigot" for a specific reason. I'm trying to shift my point of view from my own to how others perceive me. I've spent many years here -- even before Mac took ownship -- trying to explain Christians and Christian-thought to people. How when a Christian says: love the sinner, hate the sin, that it means something very different to them than it does to the "sinner" (regardless of what the "sin" might be). How Christians REALLY DO believe they are showing God's love by pointing out the sin. They're not trying to be Holier-than-Thou or gleeful at another's "damnation". Not all certainly, but I think the vast majority of them.

The epiphany I've had is that it just doesn't matter what my intent is. If people perceive it as hate or ignorance, or bigotry, then by God, that's what it is. It's MY responsibility to consider the effect my words have on the audience, rather than expecting the audience to correctly interpret my intent. It's really not that hard. But for some reason, it has slipped the grasp of American Evangelical Christianity, and for far too long, me as well.

So I'm shifting my emphasis away from explaining Christianity to non-Christians*, and toward trying to get Christians to get their heads out of...um...the sand.

*This is code for "people who have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour". What? You don't know what that means either? Nevermind. It's not important.

Chris P · Sep 14, 2015

This is a great thread, Roger. Thanks for your honesty and openness.

I have always thought of myself as a Christian ally, but posts such as yours make me question (in the way it should) if my support has been strong and vocal enough. Two readings come to mind: "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, so you do to me" and Jesus' question to Peter: "Who do you say I am?" Leaving the public support of people I love to others is the same as letting others say who Jesus is to me. Or what faith itself is to me. If Jesus knocked on my door and asked "What have you done for the LGBT of my people?" is my answer of "I read the forums and give internet hugs to people struggling" going to be much of an answer? "I was best man at a lesbian wedding once"? "Some of my best friends..."? Is it, Christopher? Is that the answer you want to give him?

Thanks again, Roger. You've challenged me in a way I needed.

oceansoul · Sep 17, 2015

Roger J Carlson said:
I've been agonizing over this post for quite some time. There's so much to say, but it comes down to this: As a Christian, I am sorry. Sorry for the hate. Sorry for apathy. And most of all, sorry for the smug superiority that Evangelical Christians have shown the LGBTQ community for – well – forever.

It just isn't right, and it's past time for me to say so. It's past time for Christians everywhere to say so.

My journey from a cluelessly sincere Love-The-Sinner-Hate-The-Sin bigot (let's call it as it is) to a Queer-Ally has been a long one. Mostly it happened here on the boards of AW with the gentle nudging and wholly undeserved friendship of Mac and Lisa. Either of them could have shut me down (rhetorically and literally) any time, but instead treated me with graciousness and kindness, and helped me find my way at my own speed.

That graciousness is what should characterize Evangelical Christianity, but it just doesn’t. And shame on us.

I had hopes earlier this year when the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage. Maybe Christians can begin to move past it since it's the law of the land. By and large, Christians follow the law. But the recent events with Kim Davis, the County Clerk in Kentucky, have dashed those hopes. A disturbingly large number of Christians show a distressing lack of understanding of both US law and God's law.

To my shame, I've been quietly supportive of LGBTQ rights, but I can't be quiet any longer.

So, to the LGBTQ community: I'm sorry. I'm not asking to forgive all the hurts you've been dealt by all Christians everywhere. That's not my right to ask, nor your power to grant. But forgive me – one Christian – for being silent for too long. For not showing God's love as I should. For not caring. For not speaking up.

This is a wonderful post and one I sincerely wish some of my very conservative Evangelical family members would read and take to heart.

Roger J Carlson · Sep 17, 2015

oceansoul said:
This is a wonderful post and one I sincerely wish some of my very conservative Evangelical family members would read and take to heart.

Well, you could send them a link to it. http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...BTQ-Community-I-m-sorry&p=9556991#post9556991

But if the reaction of my own conservative Evangelical family members is any guide, they won't understand it. But then, I didn't write it with Christians in mind. I wrote it to the LGBTQ community to admit that I finally understand what they've been trying to tell me for years.

Perks · Sep 17, 2015

Roger, this is a very kind post. I remember a thousand years ago when we first had these discussions and you thought I was a lesbian because of my positions on these topics.

Do you remember?

Anyway, this is terrific and I love your candor. It's inspiring.

Roger J Carlson · Sep 17, 2015

Perks said:
Roger, this is a very kind post. I remember a thousand years ago when we first had these discussions and you thought I was a lesbian because of my positions on these topics. Do you remember?

Anyway, this is terrific and I love your candor. It's inspiring.

WHAT?!?! You're not? :e2thud:

Perks · Sep 17, 2015

Roger J Carlson said:
WHAT?!?! You're not?

Lol! Not at all.

jenndoss · Sep 19, 2015

I, as an Christian woman, have come to see that people are just people who need love. It is not my job to judge anyone for their choices. God does say to love one another and that is what I take as my command. Jesus himself never hated anyone, even when they were doing wrong. He hung out with everyone. Your life is your life. It's not within me to try to change you, (unless you are abusing someone, then I need to attempt to intervene). Live your life and I'll live mine and love you through the process. NO ONE is less of a person or less important because of their choices. God loves every single one of us. Though, I don't promote the LGBTQ lifestyles, I won't judge them either. Great thread Roger!

Perks · Sep 19, 2015

jenndoss said:
NO ONE is less of a person or less important because of their choices. God loves every single one of us.

We are talking about sexual and romantic choices, yes? Because people are necessarily diminished or exalted by their choices in life, just not by their consensual romantic and sexual ones. I believe that LGBTQ people want to be judged with the same yardstick as their hetero neighbors. What we choose to do in life defines what sort of people we are. We can, and must, judge people by their choices.

The trouble, although I believe your tone is conciliatory, is with the fundamental premise that the consensual sexual and romantic inclinations and choices of some people are inherently inferior to others. There is no way to reconcile the statement "I don't promote the LGBTQ lifestyles" and the idea that LGBTQ people are fundamentally the same as heterosexuals.

If we look to start evaluating their other life choices, as wisdom dictates we must to do all people for the good of society, but we evaluate LGBTQ people from one step down because of this insignificant difference, then they will necessarily come out at least one step down from the true sum of the content of their character. It will always be, spoken or un, that however good a person is judged to be, he or she would be just a little better if they were straight. And I think that is grossly unfair.

Latina Bunny · Sep 19, 2015

^Agreed, Perks.

To me, "I won't promote LGBT lifestyles" doesn't sound the most, er, welcoming of phrases. Does that mean one is promoting the hetero relationships, instead? Or sees hetero as the "normal" standard? If so, then that's still judging LGBT relationships in a different way than non-LGBT relationships. "Double standards" is the phrase, as they say?

Underdawg47 · Sep 19, 2015

Roger J Carlson said:
Thanks. To you and everyone here. I've never ever intended to be hateful.

But I called my early self a "bigot" for a specific reason. I'm trying to shift my point of view from my own to how others perceive me. I've spent many years here -- even before Mac took ownship -- trying to explain Christians and Christian-thought to people. How when a Christian says: love the sinner, hate the sin, that it means something very different to them than it does to the "sinner" (regardless of what the "sin" might be). How Christians REALLY DO believe they are showing God's love by pointing out the sin. They're not trying to be Holier-than-Thou or gleeful at another's "damnation". Not all certainly, but I think the vast majority of them.

The epiphany I've had is that it just doesn't matter what my intent is. If people perceive it as hate or ignorance, or bigotry, then by God, that's what it is. It's MY responsibility to consider the effect my words have on the audience, rather than expecting the audience to correctly interpret my intent. It's really not that hard. But for some reason, it has slipped the grasp of American Evangelical Christianity, and for far too long, me as well.

So I'm shifting my emphasis away from explaining Christianity to non-Christians*, and toward trying to get Christians to get their heads out of...um...the sand.

*This is code for "people who have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour". What? You don't know what that means either? Nevermind. It's not important.

I think what Christians have been guilty of is imposing their religious rules upon those who never chose to be a Christian. This is an important fact that rarely gets mentioned. God and Jesus gives people free will to freely come to him or not. Christians were told certain things were sinful in order to police themselves, but they were never given authority by god to impose these beliefs upon others who never chose to be a Christian. This is the thing that tends to make Christians the bad guys. They don't respect the rights or choices of others who are not Christian. Jesus wanted his followers to love their enemies and treat them kindly and with respect. It is hard to get people to want to believe and follow a religion that imposes their rules upon people who believe differently.

Viridian · Sep 19, 2015

jenndoss said:
I, as an Christian woman, have come to see that people are just people who need love. It is not my job to judge anyone for their choices. God does say to love one another and that is what I take as my command. Jesus himself never hated anyone, even when they were doing wrong. He hung out with everyone. Your life is your life. It's not within me to try to change you, (unless you are abusing someone, then I need to attempt to intervene). Live your life and I'll live mine and love you through the process. NO ONE is less of a person or less important because of their choices. God loves every single one of us. Though, I don't promote the LGBTQ lifestyles, I won't judge them either. Great thread Roger!

Look:

I'm sure you think of yourself as a very loving and understanding person. I'm sure you think this is a very understanding and loving post.

But telling someone that you've chosen not to judge them even though you disagree with their lifestyle... that's not a compliment, okay?

Imagine this. Imagine one day you're in church when suddenly someone comes in and gets up on the podium. He announces to everyone there that he doesn't agree with the Christian lifestyle. He thinks being Christian is wrong and he doesn't promote it. However, he's chosen not to judge any of you. After all, everyone makes mistakes, and you're all human.

How would you feel? Would you feel flattered or insulted?

You just walked into an LGBT space and announced that you don't agree with our "lifestyles." Do not expect gratitude. I'm sure you're a lovely person, but I would encourage you to stop. You're not promoting kinship; you are insulting LGBT people in their own house.

To the LGBTQ Community: I'm sorry

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