• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

Avoiding sexist writing

Status
Not open for further replies.

lpetrich

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
277
Reaction score
37
I'm sure that this issue has come up in the past here, but I must bring it up because of something that I've come across.

UFO contactee George Adamski wrote a book about his alleged travels aboard the spacecraft of his extraterrestrial friends called Inside the Spaceships (1955). They are all humanoid and they can easily pass as human on our planet, sort of like what one sees in some episodes of Star Trek.

This is what I find rather annoyingly sexist. It's a scene in one of GA's ET friends' larger spacecraft:
Then, as I stepped through the doorway into this luxurious lounge, my attention instantly was absorbed by two incredibly lovely young women who arose from one of the divans and came toward us as we entered.

This was indeed a tremendous surprise as, for some reason, I had never visualized women as space travelers. Their very presence and extraordinary beauty, the friendliness that was so apparent as they approached to greet us, together with the luxurious background in the out-of-this-world craft, were overwhelming. ...

I realize that in trying to describe these ladies from other worlds than ours I am attempting the impossible. Perhaps, using my inadequate description as a stepping stone, the reader will search his own imagination for an image of perfect beauty—and then know that it must certainly fall short of the reality.

I recently turned it into
Then I saw getting up from one of the couches two women who seemed dressed for the most expensive formal ballroom event imaginable.
I hope that that isn't very sexist. :(
 

Tazlima

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
3,042
Reaction score
1,494
I'm a bit confused by the wording "I recently turned it into." Are you reprinting the book and editing the content?
 

Gilroy Cullen

Handsome servant of a redhead
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
4,567
Reaction score
677
Location
Deep in the State of Confusion
Website
swordsvspens.blogspot.com
Um, okay...

First, 1955 - different era, different writing style, different world view. Also, written from a man's point of view.

Second, I'm with Tazlima - what do you mean by turned it into? And a Divan is not a couch. Suggest you research what he wrote.

Third - Writing has to go with the character. If you alter it, removing that characterization, you're changing the character...
 

lpetrich

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
277
Reaction score
37
I'm a bit confused by the wording "I recently turned it into." Are you reprinting the book and editing the content?
Not at all. I was imagining what that scene might look like from someone else's point of view.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
Yeah, I don't get it. Even in a modern story, the fact that a male character is struck by the beauty of a pair of female aliens isn't sexist writing. The character may be sexist (hinted at by his being surprised at women space travelers), but if you're reading stories from 1955 and being annoyed by the sexism of men admiring beautiful women, well....
 

lpetrich

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
277
Reaction score
37
Um, okay...

First, 1955 - different era, different writing style, different world view. Also, written from a man's point of view.
True, but other than some character's viewpoint, is it something good to do in one's own writing? This is 2015, not 1955.
 

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
16,441
Reaction score
1,529
Location
between rising apes and falling angels
Website
www.cranehanabooks.com
Your version shows me even less about the women, as they are still walking mannekins for the dresses.

It's a good exercise, but it falls flat. Is it sexist to notice the physical beauty of other individuals, or just human? Too many scientific studies have shown that awareness of beauty and charisma (not the same!) seem hardwired into humanity. Rather than fall back on the 'lovely beyond description' trope, I always like to see the narrator pick elements to describe.
 

Tazlima

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
3,042
Reaction score
1,494
Not at all. I was imagining what that scene might look like from someone else's point of view.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Personally, apart from his expression of surprise at seeing women there, I don't find the original passage particularly sexist. A bit heavy-handed with describing the georgeous ladies, but sexy doesn't always equal sexist.

Even his surprise is logical considering the time period. Playing devil's advocate, let's say this was written today, when female pilots and astronauts are a normal occurrance. What could he see on a spaceship that would surprise him? My first thought is children. Humans wouldn't be inclined to send their offspring on an interstellar journey, so if I got beamed onto a spaceship and saw little aliens running around playing, I'd be surprised.

Let's rewrite the scene and substitute children.



Then, as I stepped through the doorway into what appeared to be a schoolroom, my attention instantly was absorbed by two adorable youngsters who bounded up to me as eagerly as a pair of spaniel pups, seized my hands, and started dancing around. I couldn't help but smile at their antics.

This was indeed a tremendous surprise as, for some reason, I had never visualized children as space travelers. They were adorable. Imagine the cutest, cuddliest kids in existence, and they were even cuter than that.

It's standard fantasy fare. 1) Something we don't expect to see. 2) An exaggeration of familiar qualities.
 

VoireyLinger

Angel Wing Fetish
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
127
Location
Southern US
Website
www.voireylinger.com
Sexist writing will present characters (usually women) as objects for sexual titillation or tools to provide plot point motivation, or present one gender as being less capable or having less value strictly because of gender. They aren't given depth or personality beyond what's needed to provide the main (usually male) character with a reason to take an action. Common depictions of these sexist themes include the Bond-girl style character, a woman who has been raped or murdered in the main character's back story, and the helpless damsel in distress. It's also worth noting that many books use the concept of the hero 'getting the girl' in the end, depicting her as a object or prize. Also not a good thing. These sexist themes and tropes can be flipped to be pro-female at the expense of males. This doesn't make them not-sexist, just a different brand.

You first sample was sexist by today's standards not because the main character saw two attractive women, but because he was amazed women were space travelers. As mentioned before, it was a different time and attitudes toward women were very different. When it was written, it would likely have been considered a forward thinking piece for including women in space travel. As Filigree said, the women are still not characters in your modern revision. They haven't had the time to be presented as characters, and it's natural to assess appearance when first seeing someone, so this one sentence doesn't strike me as sexist. If they remain for the entire story as nothing more than pretty objects for the man to look at and enjoy, it becomes sexist.
 
Last edited:

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
I wouldn't say your revision is an improvement. It is closer to a dispassionate journalistic style. It doesn't express the sense of wonder that the original does.

I didn't see a lot of sexism in the original, other than what the author himself admitted as an error, that he had not considered women being space travelers. I find it notably egalitarian for the era that he does refer to the women as space travelers, colleagues and equals of the males, not assume they have some different role such as space stewardesses.

The only other sexism is the preoccupation with their beauty, which he perhaps does not spend so much time on when describing male extraterrestrials. In your version you have not removed that bias.
 
Last edited:

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
the exercise is totally legit, but I'm not sure the original text was inherently sexist.

"I had no idea why the alien visitors might have brought women, until I realized they needed someone to space-vacuum and make their star-goop astro-dinner" would be sexist, he noted they were attractive and that he was shocked by his own preconceptions butting against what he actually saw.

- - - Updated - - -

True, but other than some character's viewpoint, is it something good to do in one's own writing? This is 2015, not 1955.

then that is a different point entirely, but I stay true to character voice. Even when my characters say truly cringe-worthy things.
 
Last edited:

kenpochick

I should be writing, not on AW.:-)
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
602
Reaction score
128
Location
in my head mostly
There's a difference between having a character who is sexist and writing a sexist book. Given the time period referred to the attitude is common. Even today I can still take a sexist character, just as I can take a racist character or a bigoted character. However, if the author is expressing those attitudes then I am out.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
Not at all. I was imagining what that scene might look like from someone else's point of view.

This kind of "sexist writing" avoidance is just silly, and makes no sense. Who cares what this would have read like from the POV of someone who wasn't there? It's written from the POV of someone who WAS there, it's represented as factual, and like the way he thinks or not, it is the way he thought, and so is what should be written.

Why not go back and rewrite some of Thomas Jefferson's writings because you think it might be sexist?

Not that anything about what you rewrote is sexist. It isn't, though I admit I pretty much stop listening when anyone says "sexist writing" or "misogyny". Both are usually just someone saying they disagree with someone, but the only way they can actually express this is by name calling.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,981
Reaction score
6,933
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
Is it sexist to notice the physical beauty of other individuals, or just human? Too many scientific studies have shown that awareness of beauty and charisma (not the same!) seem hardwired into humanity. Rather than fall back on the 'lovely beyond description' trope, I always like to see the narrator pick elements to describe.

This is an interesting point, because the recent tidal wave of conversation on sexism has almost, at times, seemed to conflate sexism with an enjoyment of looking at pretty people. Standards of beauty are, in large part, fluid, but everybody has always enjoyed looking at pretty people. Objectification is natural and not automatically callous or sinister. It would be too exhausting to contemplate the depth of humanity in each passerby we happen to notice. But the rejection of sexism and the resistance against equating beauty with both virtue and value is desperately important in our becoming a more moral animal. We have to check or behaviors and conclusions, not our innate tendency to appreciate lovely things.

Let's not throw the beauty out with the bathwater, because it's futile to try.
 

lpetrich

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
277
Reaction score
37
I'm sorry that I had expressed myself in such an embarrassing and clumsy manner :(

As to that alternate viewpoint, how someone else might have reacted to it, I intended it to be in the spirit of opening one's front door and finding someone dressed in a toga. I guess that I should have pointed it out. :(

ETA:

As to rewriting Thomas Jefferson's works, I'm sorry that I made it seem that way :( It was more like taking some Big Event that TJ had described and imagining how it would have looked from someone else's perspective.
 
Last edited:

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
no need to apologize, and avoiding "being sexist" is a perfectly noble ideal. granted, not everyone agrees on a definition or standard for sexism, but yeah, there isn't anything wrong with that.

at the same time you seem to be really asking if you should tailor the MC's voice to fit societal standards, and there truly ARE sexist folks out there.....if it fits the character, better to be true to character than make them cardboard to assure they are suitable for mass consumption. That has nothing to do with where the line in the sand may be re: sexism, or prejudice, or any other negatives
 

tinyCirrusCloud

I'm not crazy, I promise.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
971
Reaction score
358
Location
Germany
I agree with quicklime. There are sexist people out there and no one is perfect. Your characters are going to have flaws, and it really is more important to stay in the voice of the character. As long as it's just the character being sexist and not the author, it's perfectly fine. The same applies to other things, like racism and mass murder (maybe a bit of an extreme example, but you get my point)
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,310
I wouldn't give Political Correctness a second thought when writing fiction. It's not a public service announcement and writing that tries to be imo can quickly get an annoying, golly-gee vibe like "here's a lesson on flossing your teeth and eating your vegetables." Show us your imperfect characters stirring things up, don't set a Good Example.
 

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
14,532
Reaction score
24,098
Location
Massachusetts
Website
elizabethbonesteel.com
I'm sorry that I had expressed myself in such an embarrassing and clumsy manner :(

I think you did fine. I can understand why that passage made you stop and wonder, although I tend to agree with the people who don't find it sexist in and of itself.

As others have said, sexism is a character trait, and a sexist character != a sexist author. On the other hand, like Perks, I don't think noticing attractiveness is necessarily sexist at all. I have a POV character who's in love, and when I'm writing his POV, he often notices how she looks. It's not all he notices, but it would be unrealistic for the thoughts not to go through his head at all.
 

Twick

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
3,291
Reaction score
715
Location
Canada
I don't see this as sexist, particularly given the time period. I see it as trying to show how everything in the spacecraft was beyond anything found on Earth. The women are more beautiful. The surroundings are more luxurious. I suspect that if male aliens came on the scene, that he'd mention they are the most manly specimens of manliness he's ever seen. The narrator isn't telling the women to make him a sammich, or simply ogling them.

But don't apologize for noting it. It's a valid debate.
 

Gilroy Cullen

Handsome servant of a redhead
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
4,567
Reaction score
677
Location
Deep in the State of Confusion
Website
swordsvspens.blogspot.com
True, but other than some character's viewpoint, is it something good to do in one's own writing? This is 2015, not 1955.

To be honest, if that is the way the character is, yes, that is still the way to write it. If that's not the character, then put it in the character's view.
 

lpetrich

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
277
Reaction score
37
I should have stated more clearly that I was thinking about overall narration. :(

I completely agree that characters are another issue, that it's legitimate to make a main character sexist or whatever.
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
generally I think people assume "third or first-person."

if you were writing in Omni, your overall narration belongs to some "other" (note THEY can still be sexist, racist, etc.) but if you're in third, you would still BE in that character's voice. so I am not sure there IS some sterile, magic place you would be narrating from, in most cases.

that said, again, the original passage wasn't automatically sexist. Sexist is NOT "noticing there are boobies," it is making assumptions of a person's mental state, personality, motivations, etc. not because of who they are, but because of said boobies. or penises.
 
Last edited:

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,079
Reaction score
10,775
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I'm sure that this issue has come up in the past here, but I must bring it up because of something that I've come across.

UFO contactee George Adamski wrote a book about his alleged travels aboard the spacecraft of his extraterrestrial friends called Inside the Spaceships (1955). They are all humanoid and they can easily pass as human on our planet, sort of like what one sees in some episodes of Star Trek.

This is what I find rather annoyingly sexist. It's a scene in one of GA's ET friends' larger spacecraft:


I recently turned it into

I hope that that isn't very sexist. :(

I don't understand what you're saying here. You're editing a book published in 1955 for a modern audience? While I deplore sexism, the pov character's reaction to female space travelers does reflect an attitude that was more common in 1955 (when the book was written) than it is today, or will (hopefully) be in the "real" future. Is there a reason for making this book into something it isn't? It seems that very few writers in the 50s anticipated the second (let alone later) wave of feminism that put a dent in traditional gender roles (though even today, they're far from gone). So they wrote futuristic societies that reflected idealized 1950s social norms. Laughable, but it should make us wonder about what assumptions about "the way things are" we might project into our own future societies.

You may want to talk to the author and any other editors working on this project if you're unsure here.

It's also important to consider that an individual character can be sexist (or any other kind of ist) as a reflection of the time and place in which they live, but that doesn't necessarily reflect the views of the author. Some guys do obsess about the appearance of women they meet. When a scene is written in the pov of such a character, it might not be sexist, but just characterization. Read the whole book (or at least a large chunk of it) before you decide that one scene reflects a sexist intent by the author.

For people writing modern SF and F who want to avoid sexism, a couple of things I'd suggest considering.

--Do you have female characters who are well-rounded and with goals and agency of their own?
--Do they talk to one another about things that aren't male characters or men? (the old Bechdel test)
--Do you avoid defaulting to male gaze, unless you actually want the scene to be from the pov of a man who lingers over the physical attributes of every attractive woman he meets?
--Do the women in your stories fall across a spectrum of age and attractiveness in the same way the men do?
--Do you default to worlds and cultures that are limiting for women "just because," or do you have a distinct reason for doing so that isn't underlying assumptions or defaulting to an older style of worldbuilding?

[edit] and as others have pointed out, noticing that an attractive member of the opposite sex is attractive to you isn't sexist in of itself. Most of us do it at least some of the time. Heck, I'm a heterosexual woman, and I have opinions about how other women look sometimes, and I've been known to give attractive men second (and third) looks. Turning that person into a collection of body parts or assuming that attractiveness is an obligation and the only reason the person has for being, however, probably is.
 
Last edited:

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
7,063
Reaction score
1,642
Mostly the excerpt makes me quick to dismiss this as a fabrication rather than any sort of truthful account of alien contact, because of course the women are incredibly, outlandishly beautiful.

It's this guy's fantasy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.