Apparently, We Don't Exist.

It just goes to show that having a platform is not the same as having a brain.

It's a variant of a tired argument I often see online: That atheism is just another unprovable belief set, therefore, it's really a religion.

Um, sure, if "not stamp collecting" is really just another hobby.

Some believers seem to have a really visceral reaction to the idea that, no, honestly, some people just don't believe in any gods, or subscribe to any religious beliefs. I guess if I'm a believer in Norse gods, then I can be Just Wrong, but it must not feel like the ultimate repudiation of the Duck Dynasty guy's core beliefs?

I pay no attention to idiots like the Duck Dynasty guy, except where he tries to impose his religious beliefs on the rest of us, particularly through our laws. On the bright side, I've met plenty of believers who accept that atheism is a real thing, and don't seem threatened by it. I'm certainly fine with their beliefs, since they don't try to crowbar them onto me.

veinglory said:

It just goes to show that having a platform is not the same as having a brain.

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Amen to that.

thethinker42 said:

Amen to that.

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Oooh, delicious irony!

Introversion said:

It's a variant of a tired argument I often see online: That atheism is just another unprovable belief set, therefore, it's really a religion.

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For example, this, which for some reason just popped up on FaceBook for me even though it's from a 2006 interview:

Margaret Atwood & Martin Amis on Faith & Reason

Margaret Atwood said:

BILL MOYERS: Not an atheist?

MARGARET ATWOOD: No, atheism-

BILL MOYERS: What’s the difference?

MARGARET ATWOOD: — is a religion.

BILL MOYERS: Atheism is a religion?

MARGARET ATWOOD: Absolutely.

BILL MOYERS: You mean it’s dogmatic?

MARGARET ATWOOD: Absolutely dogmatic.

BILL MOYERS: How so?

MARGARET ATWOOD: Well it makes an absolute stand about something that cannot be proven.

BILL MOYERS: There is no God.

MARGARET ATWOOD: You can’t prove that.

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Oy! <smacks forehead 10 times>

Isn't he going further and saying non-Christians don't exist except possibly for Hellenistic pagans?

RichardGarfinkle said:

And, of course, there are no atheists in fox holes which is apparently the theme of a movie this guy was in.

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I always understood this as: Atheists are far less likely to fall for the old adage "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori." Or pro deus for that matter.

Seems I have been mistaken.

I still like my interpretation better.

kuwisdelu said:

Isn't he going further and saying non-Christians don't exist except possibly for Hellenistic pagans?

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He should. It's the only logical conclusion. If you start with the premise that the Christian calendar (or, more precisely, the year numbering in it) is any kind of guide to deciding who exists or not, then only Christians exist. No Jews, no Muslims, no Buddhists (although they might be okay with it),

I couldn't care less about that Duck guy,, but this is so wrong-headed, it merits its own logic bubble. It's worse than saying Atheism can't be proven, btw. That, one can argue with.

ETA: Okay, couldn't resist but click on that link. So apparently, non-existence only begets you when you use that calendar. Its existence by itself doesn't do that. So I guess the Muslims are safe, as long as they're not living in the West.

veinglory said:

It just goes to show that having a platform is not the same as having a brain.

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No, it doesn't mean that at all. Being witty is not an argument, and has nothing to do with truth or facts.

RichardGarfinkle said:

Ran into this on the Huffington Post.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/si-robertson-atheists_n_7741006.html

It's about one of the Duck Dynasty people saying that there are no atheists. The evidence consists of the fact that we use a calendar that has year numbers based from the birth of Jesus. Of course by that reasoning everyone is really worshiping Roman and Norse gods given the names of the months and the days.

And, of course, there are no atheists in fox holes which is apparently the theme of a movie this guy was in.

Yeesh, what a load of ------- unthinking stereotypes and mindlessly clever bits.

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Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

Jamesaritchie said:

Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

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I thought one of the guidelines of this sub-forum was :

...discussions may be assumed to be secular in nature and the basic validity of A&NT perspective is a starting assumption. Comparison might be made on 'safe rooms' on university campuses that exclude anti-homosexual and sexist conduct of any kind and thus allow members of these groups to relax and get on with their work.

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Jamesaritchie said:

Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

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Poe's law...

Marian Perera said:

I thought one of the guidelines of this sub-forum was :

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These guidelines only apply if there's an actual discussion.

There are occasional posters on AW who post their beliefs in a forceful manner as if they were fact, and then never, ever reply to any challenge of those opinions.

This applies not only to religious ideas, but to politics and writing as well. They have not the slightest interest in participating in a discussion about anything; they are desirous only of having a platform to express their own immutable beliefs.

Jamesaritchie said:

Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

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If you disagree with atheists, that's fine.

But telling atheists what they believe? That's not beneficial to discussion.

rugcat said:

There are occasional posters on AW who post their beliefs in a forceful manner as if they were fact, and then never, ever reply to any challenge of those opinions.

This applies not only to religious ideas, but to politics and writing as well. They have not the slightest interest in participating in a discussion about anything; they are desirous only of having a platform to express their own immutable beliefs.

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Of course. I understand now. Thanks for setting me straight, rugcat.

It reminds me of when I went to college and had to pass by the street preachers who held Bibles and screamed at any girls who were wearing pants. The preachers were so strident and clearly uninterested in doing anything but hectoring us that I don't think they saved anyone, but perhaps their performance made them feel a little better.

Jamesaritchie said:

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

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A good friend of mine narrowly escaped a rocket that killed two of his buddies. Then he and the rest of his unit took fire for what he describes as "too fucking long."

He was an atheist before, an atheist during, and remains an atheist today. The only difference is he has two fewer friends, 20% hearing loss, a scar he doesn't like talking about, and serious PTSD.

There are atheists in foxholes. There are atheists on AW. There are atheists everywhere, and I assure you, many of us have thought it through. I for one fought it for a long time before I realized that no matter how much I wanted it to be untrue, there are no gods.

But go ahead and maintain your ideas about what we believe. You're wrong, but who am I to tell you you're wrong about MY beliefs?

I don't believe that Duck Dynasty exists. How could a bunch of guys who don't follow their own holy scriptures be so pedantic and narrow about what those scriptures actually say, and why would anyone give such ignoramuses a platform? And why would anyone watch a show with a bunch of guys who look like ZZ top and aren't even remotely as entertaining?

As for the atheists in foxholes thing, seeing a friend's head explode would pretty much purge me of any lingering belief I might have in a benevolent, caring god.

There is at least one foxhole graduate who is also an atheist.

http://americanhumanist.org/humanism/I_Was_an_Atheist_in_a_Foxhole

The great thing about telling someone else what they believe, though, is that your assertion is completely and utterly non-falsifiable. There is nothing they can say that will convince you that they aren't lying, or deluded. So you can keep making the same argument over and over again, and no matter how many times people tell you that their experiences have been different from yours, you can clamp your hands over your ears, say, "Lalalala," and refuse to acknowledge it.

This brings to mind the comments I made before, in another thread. If you bring it up for discussion...

Sadly, this is too often the "argument" that theists use. Simply assert something again and again and again, with no proof, no logical argument, until your opponents give up in disgust, then declare victory.

James, if your definition of "victory" is that low, go for it. Myself, I prefer actually winning arguments by persuasion, but hey, YMMV.

If you cannot respect the atheist identity, do not comment in this subforum. This is a longstanding rule of the subforum.

Jamesaritchie said:

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

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Assuming this isn't a satirical post, there's, for example, my father and my husband. Also these fine people. And while it wasn't in a foxhole, I've crouched next to people, including children, torn apart by explosions, car accidents, gun shots, structure fires, and never once has my atheism wavered for one second. At this point I feel it's pretty safe to say it's permanent.

I've never understood the "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument.

I mean, what is it supposed to prove? When people are in a calm and rational, they choose atheism, but when they're afraid, they believe in God? People who experience trauma often find comfort in religion? People near death like the idea of an afterlife?

Honestly, it sounds like an argument against religion, not for it.

Jamesaritchie said:

God exists, and this is not my belief

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Sure it is. If it were fact, not belief, we'd have hard verifiable evidence, not scriptures and myths.

The only difference between atheists and Christians (or Mormons, or Muslims) is the former believes in one fewer gods than the latter.

ViridianChick said:

People who experience trauma often find comfort in religion? I have no idea.

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Yeah, isn't it usually the other way around? As in: the stereotypical atheist is someone who suffered a shattering loss, at which point he dropped to his knees, screamed "NOOOOOO!" at the uncaring sky, and was a non-believer from that moment on.