Apparently, We Don't Exist.

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Roxxsmom

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But consciously self-identifying as atheist and having that honored and respected does/should come from privilege?

No, I don't think it should stem from privilege, but I think it often does.

As for the so? I was just positing that there may be different paths to atheism and all are equally real or valid. I've always thought of it as a conscious choice people make based on arguments they've heard (or perhaps the ones they haven't heard) in support of a deity or deities and their analysis of the contradictions and inconsistencies inherent in organized religion, as this is where my own doubts about the existence of deities stem from and my contact with atheists have mostly been with people who move in fairly academic circles.

But I was acknowledging that other people might have different experiences, since Richard and Dawnstorm have said things that make it sound like they arrived at their atheism in a different way and for different reasons, and I got the impression I was being a jerk by overstating my own experiences as if I thought they were the only ones that existed.

I think I'm being very offensive and disrespectful of atheism, and this wasn't my intent at all, and I should probably just shut up now.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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I don't see the sharp dichotomy between the innate feeling and the intellectual analysis. The concepts of theism are not obvious ones even though we are culturally immersed in them. The idea of God or gods is an extraordinarily vague one. People are acculturated to religious thought and action and often made to take part in ceremony and prayer and so on. They are taught to speak words to unperceivable beings and often told to take on faith the idea that they are listened to.

Those of theist mind talk about response to this, of direct experience and inner stirrings etc. But for those of us who have no such experience the entire structure becomes intellectual. Examined on purely intellectual grounds and with no inner stirrings in those directions, the theist structure loses a lot of appeal.

The metaphor with asexuality can be made vivid if one considers how just plain odd sex must seem to those who have no erotic feelings.
 

kuwisdelu

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The concepts of theism are not obvious ones even though we are culturally immersed in them.

Hmm. I'm not so sure about that. After all, many children "play pretend" in which "imaginary" beings or situations are treated as real. And in fact, many children treat their imaginary play as real, and are upset when adults don't comply.

I should note that despite my argument, theism did not in fact come naturally to me at first. Though I enjoyed imaginary play, I was an ardently scientific child. In fact, I wouldn't say I was culturally immersed in theistic concepts at all.

I got in trouble many times as a child for my questioning of theist concepts.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Those of theist mind talk about response to this, of direct experience and inner stirrings etc. But for those of us who have no such experience the entire structure becomes intellectual. Examined on purely intellectual grounds and with no inner stirrings in those directions, the theist structure loses a lot of appeal.

The metaphor with asexuality can be made vivid if one considers how just plain odd sex must seem to those who have no erotic feelings.

This is a good analogy, and I can certainly relate to the there's something that seems very important to a lot of people, but I don't seem to feel it the same way" situation. And I've always been good at getting myself into trouble and offending people because I discuss things logically that are emotional for most people.

One thing the asexuality analogy can't explain is the people who have switched from being very religious to being atheists and vice versa. So whatever it is that leads someone to become an atheist might not always be innate in the same way that the trait that makes someone asexual is. My understanding is that asexual people are usually that way all their lives.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Hmm. I'm not so sure about that. After all, many children "play pretend" in which "imaginary" beings or situations are treated as real. And in fact, many children treat their imaginary play as real, and are upset when adults don't comply.

I should note that despite my argument, theism did not in fact come naturally to me at first. Though I enjoyed imaginary play, I was an ardently scientific child. In fact, I wouldn't say I was culturally immersed in theistic concepts at all.

I got in trouble many times as a child for my questioning of theist concepts.

There seems to be some distinction between the theist mindset and having imaginary friends or even conceiving of imaginary worlds and treating them as real. I too did a lot of the latter (not uncommon for future SF and fantasy writers), but it didn't help in accepting theism.

Now, you've got me wondering about this. Hmm. I don't know.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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This is a good analogy, and I can certainly relate to the there's something that seems very important to a lot of people, but I don't seem to feel it the same way" situation. And I've always been good at getting myself into trouble and offending people because I discuss things logically that are emotional for most people.

One thing the asexuality analogy can't explain is the people who have switched from being very religious to being atheists and vice versa. So whatever it is that leads someone to become an atheist might not always be innate in the same way that the trait that makes someone asexual is. My understanding is that asexual people are usually that way all their lives.

I don't think the analogy is perfect for every atheist, but I think it works for many of us. There are clearly some people who give up theism out of a sense that it failed them or a growing awareness that it doesn't fit the facts of their lives or from a crisis of some kind or out of contemplation of the Problem of Evil or some such.

But if you have a look at the threads in this board about why people are atheists you'll see a lot more born this ways than went through dramas.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?100206-Why-am-I-an-atheist
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?108088-When-did-you-become-an-atheist
 
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buz

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I don't see the sharp dichotomy between the innate feeling and the intellectual analysis. The concepts of theism are not obvious ones even though we are culturally immersed in them. The idea of God or gods is an extraordinarily vague one. People are acculturated to religious thought and action and often made to take part in ceremony and prayer and so on. They are taught to speak words to unperceivable beings and often told to take on faith the idea that they are listened to.

I don't know--concepts of gods are and have been quite diverse, and to say that they are vague ideas or that the beings thought of as gods are unperceivable discounts a lot of faiths historical and not and depends on a narrowed view, IMO. Many forms of theism have taken the view that god or gods or even supernatural beings not quite called "gods" is/are quite perceivable and not vague at all.

If you see something happen, one "obvious" impulse is to try to explain the cause, I think. I mean, it's not an absolute, but I don't think it's unusual, and I don't think it requires external teaching. How one chooses to explain it can depend on a variety of things: knowledge and beliefs a person already has, other people's knowledge available to the person, sensory input, nebulous innate qualities I don't understand, and, yes, imagination, as a philosopher might use to try to understand how the mind works or how it comes out of the brain or what the self is, or somesuch. I don't think coming up with "force I can't directly see doing these things" is too un-obvious, and I don't think that ascribing a consciousness (of some sort) to that force is too far away, if being a god even requires consciousness. Using your imagination to come up with things you know to be fictional is a bit different, I think, than using your imagination to come up with ideas about things that you don't understand in order to make them more understandable, but it's something that can be used to different ends.

The rituals you are talking about, those require teaching--but I'm not convinced the "idea of god" is all that hard to arrive at, if you strip away other things. Likewise, I don't think the idea of no god is that hard to arrive at either. I think it depends on those variables...

Of course, I can't say for certain, because I don't know anyone who was born in a bubble with no ideas inside to influence them ;) And it's possible you are just talking about the modern world, rather than generalized discussion of theism from all time, and stuff. But it *seems* to me like, in general, theism wouldn't be that hard to arrive at, nor atheism.

As far as asexuality/atheism/privilege...I don't know if privilege is the right word for it. But certainly, before I was aware asexuality was a thing, I just sort of thought it was a symptom of how fucked up and dysfunctional I was. (Which, um, I still can't rule out, but it seems easier and healthier to call myself asexual.) My access to internet, general literacy, and freedom to not get married if I don't wanna allowed me to call myself asexual and live as I want in that respect. Likewise, I do not have to participate in religious rituals or live by theocratic law, and I am not shunned by society and disowned by my family if I say I don't believe in god. I am, however, sort of seen as a negative person by a certain set of society around me, and would be seen as a hellbound weirdo by some extended family members, but eh. I think I get what R is driving at with this, though I don't know if the semantics are correct ;)
 

Cathy C

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I just tend to say I'm agnostic. I live in the hook of the buckle of the bible belt and it makes life a little easier since it leaves open all possibilities. Either that, or I say I was "raised Lutheran", which is absolutely true. It simply leaves out my present views. :ROFL:
 

Max Vaehling

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I can see the point about privilege, from a somewhat Maslowian perspective. It's a luxury topic to think about. Social pressure aside, for a lot of atheists the question of God is not the most important question in the world, after all. It can be a fun intellectual exercise, but not an existential one because from the position of not believing, there's nothing at stake. This, btw, isn't a matter of what religion you're deviating from, it's a matter of how strict and socially binding the religious culture around you is.

Full disclosure: I grew up in Northern Germany where religion just isn't that big a deal. We get the same indoctrinations you get everywhere in Christian societies, but it tends to wear off if you're not actively seeking that kind of fix. Which I didn't and nobody pressured me, so I kinda naturally gravitated towards agnosticism, after about a decade of not thinking much about religion at all. Atheism was more of a conscious, deliberate and, to a degree, political choice, later.
 

buz

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I can see the point about privilege, from a somewhat Maslowian perspective. It's a luxury topic to think about. Social pressure aside, for a lot of atheists the question of God is not the most important question in the world, after all. It can be a fun intellectual exercise, but not an existential one because from the position of not believing, there's nothing at stake.

Social pressure aside, even, I can say this has not been my experience; I have felt something was "at stake." But then, I'm still kinda agnostic, so maybe therein lies the difference...

Or, I'm weird, also. That could have something to do with it :D
 

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I think that article was a stronger statement that there is a great lack of logic in America. Logic should be taught starting in the earliest grades.
 

Manuel Royal

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I'm honestly not sure whether the Duck Dynasty guy is for real. (Guess to be fair we should use his actual name, but I'll have to look it up ... okay, Si Robertson.) I mean, I know they're fake to some extent: until a few years ago they were middle-class suburbanites; rednecks, but polo shirt-wearing, golf-playing rednecks. They created their patriarch-bearded backwoodsmen personas for tv.

So possibly Robertson is just doing a character and doesn't believe the nonsense he spouts. (I've long suspected that about Ann Coulter.)

King Neptune said:
I think that article was a stronger statement that there is a great lack of logic in America. Logic should be taught starting in the earliest grades.
God, yes. ("God" as a figure of speech. I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't express emotion through references to religious concepts I don't believe.)
 

King Neptune

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I'm honestly not sure whether the Duck Dynasty guy is for real. (Guess to be fair we should use his actual name, but I'll have to look it up ... okay, Si Robertson.) I mean, I know they're fake to some extent: until a few years ago they were middle-class suburbanites; rednecks, but polo shirt-wearing, golf-playing rednecks. They created their patriarch-bearded backwoodsmen personas for tv.

So possibly Robertson is just doing a character and doesn't believe the nonsense he spouts. (I've long suspected that about Ann Coulter.)

I have also wondered that about Ann Coulter and a few others who sometimes are mentioned in the news, but I'm not really familiar with the Duck Dynasty, because I seldome watch TV.
 

nighttimer

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Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

Should they wear a tie? :Huh:

Anyone who says with 100 percent complete certainty they know what will happen based upon their religious faith is someone to be regarded skeptically and not taken all that seriously.

I don't believe in Duck Dynasty and I don't believe in Jamesaritchie either. I believe in myself.

Jamesaritchie said:
And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

No, but tell me all about it. I love hearing war stories.
 

JimmyB27

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And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

No, but tell me all about it. I love hearing war stories.
The no atheists in foxholes argument in particularly ridiculous. Even if it is true (which it probably isn't), it says a whole lot about human psychology, but bugger all about the existence of god.
 

veinglory

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Hi guys, as this is circling around one response I am going to close it for a while. I would encourage those who came in to represent their atheism to start new threads in this area about how this identity effects your as a writer or your writing.
 
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