'Writing for yourself' - sub-plots and romance

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 6, 2015

When I have expressed concerns with writing, such as my ideas or characters, I have been told many times to 'write for myself', as in writing what I want to write and what I will enjoy writing.

However as I have progressed in my current WIP I've started to wonder how self-indulgent you can be when writing. For example, say you really want to have a sub-plot of two siblings arguing over someone they both love, but none of them are main characters and their little love triangle will not advance the main plot. You slip in bits and pieces, perhaps the aftermath of an argument where the MC consoles one of the siblings, or gives advice to the poor character they are trying to seduce. But then you start to realise that these scenes aren't needed beyond character development, and you could quite easily remove them without affecting the main plot. They're like side quests if you are familiar with RPGs.

So what is your opinion on these self-indulgent scenes? Do they have a place in the novel as character development, or should they be removed in favour of more story-driven action/conversations?

Edit:

Also, drawing from my example here, how do you feel about romantic sub-plots or romantic pairings in non-romance novels? I have an unfortunate tendency to 'pair up' my characters, but sometimes I feel like if I do that, I'll be restricting the reader's interpretation. I personally like to be told who likes/dislikes who but I know that it can cause problems in the fan base when authors do this.

And just so you know, the sibling thing isn't an example from my own work lol ^^;

2nd Edit:

I'm going to use the sub-plots that my MC interferes in as a way to have other characters tell her that she needs to think about herself (or 'mind her own business' if they're feeling mean), I won't go overboard with getting her involved, but I think they need to be there and will affect the main plot. Thanks for your advice everyone but I think I've got everything straightened out now

krinaphobia · Jul 6, 2015

As a hopeless romantic, I totally fall into the trap of gratuitous romantic subplots, and there's two ways I've found of dealing with them: the first is to make them somehow relevant to the rest of the story, the second is to let them sit in the background and not devote entire scenes to them but certainly hint they're going on.

I think that well developed minor characters add richness to the work as a whole, so don't think it has to be all the MCs all the time. But devoting an entire scene to a romantic subplot that otherwise does not add to the story is going to derail the pacing of the novel. Think of it like salt: adds flavor but a little goes a long way.

Do not worry about the fan base. I live by the phrase "shippers gonna ship." No matter what you write, readers will think what they're going to think. I have explicitly paired off characters to have people be completely convinced that other characters are getting it on between scenes. If you get consistent feedback that two characters have no chemistry, you'll have to rethink things, but otherwise just write the relationships you want to write and don't worry about predicting reactions.

Debbie V · Jul 6, 2015

It's not a bad thing for your secondary characters to have real lives outside of the main plot. This makes them real. However, you do need to make this have impact. If the main character is consoling one, is doing this keeping them from doing something else? Is the clock ticking in the background, but the main character is choosing to be a good friend and hoping somehow the world won't blow up before it can be stopped? Does the main character need to get the side character's input, but the side character has to be consoled first? These add tension and purpose.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Other opinions may vary greatly and rightfully so.

BethS · Jul 6, 2015

BusyHoneyBee said:
When I have expressed concerns with writing, such as my ideas or characters, I have been told many times to 'write for myself', as in writing what I want to write and what I will enjoy writing.

However as I have progressed in my current WIP I've started to wonder how self-indulgent you can be when writing. For example, say you really want to have a sub-plot of two siblings arguing over someone they both love, but none of them are main characters and their little love triangle will not advance the main plot.

You can have sub-plots that have little to do with the main plot (TV shows do this all the time), though it's probably better if it touches the main plot in some way, or is there to be a foil to the main plot. Either way, each sub-plot must have its own story arc. It can't just be a sideshow. So that's your test: is the love triangle its own story, with conflict, climax, and resolution?

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 6, 2015

Krinaphobia - thanks for the advice, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who loves a bit of sub plot romance! It must be annoying to have people go against your pairings, but I think that 'shippers gonna ship' is a good attitude to have and one I will take to heart

Debbie - ah yes that's a really good way to make it seem relevant, I hadn't thought of that before! Thank you

BethS - yeah that's what I'm afraid of; starting something but not resolving it in fear of overtaking the main plot. I'll try to watch out for those arcs that are getting left behind, thanks

Gateway · Jul 6, 2015

BusyHoneyBee said:
So what is your opinion on these self-indulgent scenes?

In my opinion, you need a little discipline. And that comes through sticking with the point of the story.

I mean, if you're writing the WIZARD OF OZ, you're not going to start writing about Dorothy's sister's love life.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 6, 2015

Gateway said:
In my opinion, you need a little discipline. And that comes through sticking with the point of the story.

I mean, if you're writing the WIZARD OF OZ, you're not going to start writing about Dorothy's sister's love life.

I get what you're saying, but what if the side story was about a more prominent character? When I talk about them not involving the main characters, the chars are still frequently involved with the main plot, and by extension they interact with the POV character on a regular basis, so it wouldn't be so much of a diversion as it would with a non-related character

TheCthultist · Jul 6, 2015

While pushing such sub-plots to the background and having them strongly hinted at is probably the best course of action (assuming there's no way to make them relevant to the main flow of the story), there are a few other options.

Probably the most freeing of these, though also the least likely prove effective in terms of actually getting such things published, is to write it as its own short story connected to the main story. A kind of "Here's what you didn't see" type thing. A completely separate piece of writing, but one that expands on characters that people will recognize from the main story you have written. Again though, this can run into issues once the initial story has been published and rights to particular characters have been sorted out.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 7, 2015

TheCthultist said:
While pushing such sub-plots to the background and having them strongly hinted at is probably the best course of action (assuming there's no way to make them relevant to the main flow of the story), there are a few other options.

Probably the most freeing of these, though also the least likely prove effective in terms of actually getting such things published, is to write it as its own short story connected to the main story. A kind of "Here's what you didn't see" type thing. A completely separate piece of writing, but one that expands on characters that people will recognize from the main story you have written. Again though, this can run into issues once the initial story has been published and rights to particular characters have been sorted out.

Yeah strongly hinting is about as far as I'm going to go unless either of my POV characters get involved (they will but only briefly). I've considered doing extra pieces and I may well do them eventually, but I don't think I would bother properly publishing them. Maybe I'd have them available online to begin with. What do you mean rights to characters? I created them so don't I have the rights to them?

blacbird · Jul 7, 2015

BusyHoneyBee said:
When I have expressed concerns with writing, such as my ideas or characters, I have been told many times to 'write for myself', as in writing what I want to write and what I will enjoy writing.

However as I have progressed in my current WIP I've started to wonder how self-indulgent you can be when writing;

I always get a little irritated when people fall back on the "write for yourself" meme. These comments are almost always well-intended, but likewise almost always completely unhelpful. Anybody who makes that comment on this site is guilty, to some small extent, of being disingenuous, especially when it comes from those who have managed to have success in getting things published in standard manner.

It's one thing to "write for yourself" ONLY. If that's all you want, why even post here? Go keep a journal.

If, on the other hand, you really mean "Apply your craft to your writing to please yourself first, within the context of aiming it to please other potential readers," that's a different statement. And poses a question only you, individually, can answer, within the context of your goals.

I've been criticized here, more than once, for expressing my desire to get things published. Somehow that's considered by some people to be an artistic sin.

caw

BethS · Jul 7, 2015

I could be getting the wrong idea, but the general trend of advice in this thread seems to be "squash the subplot and stick to the main story." That may be good advice for a short story, but most novels I read have subplots. So there's no need to suppress an interesting subplot, but there is a need to develop it properly, and to make sure it fits, on some level, with the story as a whole.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 7, 2015

BethS said:
I could be getting the wrong idea, but the general trend of advice in this thread seems to be "squash the subplot and stick to the main story." That may be good advice for a short story, but most novels I read have subplots. So there's no need to suppress an interesting subplot, but there is a need to develop it properly, and to make sure it fits, on some level, with the story as a whole.

Yeah I'm getting a bit confused, I don't want to get rid of them completely but I feel like if I scale them back too much, they won't feel like proper sub plots, just random scenes

as for fitting with the story, do you think a scenario where a group are trying to work together after meeting only weeks previously, thus creating new friendships, arguments and romances (aka the sub plots) that weave in and out of the main POV, would count?

BethS · Jul 7, 2015

Sure, why not? You've nothing to lose by trying it.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 7, 2015

BethS said:
Sure, why not? You've nothing to lose by trying it.

Ok thanks

I'm gonna write them in and then see what my test readers say.

Thank you very much to everyone who helped!

chompers · Jul 7, 2015

blacbird said:
I always get a little irritated when people fall back on the "write for yourself" meme. These comments are almost always well-intended, but likewise almost always completely unhelpful. Anybody who makes that comment on this site is guilty, to some small extent, of being disingenuous, especially when it comes from those who have managed to have success in getting things published in standard manner.

It's one thing to "write for yourself" ONLY. If that's all you want, why even post here? Go keep a journal.

If, on the other hand, you really mean "Apply your craft to your writing to please yourself first, within the context of aiming it to please other potential readers," that's a different statement. And poses a question only you, individually, can answer, within the context of your goals.

I've been criticized here, more than once, for expressing my desire to get things published. Somehow that's considered by some people to be an artistic sin.

caw

The part I bolded: That doesn't even make sense. This is a writer's forum. There are hundreds here who are published.

As for the rest, I agree (although without the irritability). I know the statement is meant to be encouraging, but I am willing to bet those people who make it are the ones later cutting out tens of thousands of words. I for one don't want to waste my time like that. But then again, I usually go into each story with the intent of publishing it. So I think of that statement to mean to be bold and think outside the box. Don't let an "unmarketable" idea stop you from telling that story. The caveat is that, like with any book, the scenes have to move the story forward.

Having said that, it may still be worthwhile to write those extraneous scenes, albeit on the side. It could help you get to know your characters better, or spark some plot ideas.

As for subplots, I personally don't like them. I always walk away feeling as if those were added just to meet word count. Or in the case of a romantic subplot, to add romance, or worse, sex, to the story just for the sake of it. As a reader, many times I skip the bits that concentrate on the subplot(s). As a writer, I personally don't intentionally write subplots either.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 7, 2015

chompers said:
As for subplots, I personally don't like them. I always walk away feeling as if those were added just to meet word count. Or in the case of a romantic subplot, to add romance, or worse, sex, to the story just for the sake of it. As a reader, many times I skip the bits that concentrate on the subplot(s). As a writer, I personally don't intentionally write subplots either.

Oh no believe me I'm not adding them for any of those reasons, I can't help but feel the need to make it seem like not everything revolves around the MC, sure she's heavily involved with the main plot but I don't see why she can't get involved with the other characters' lives too, I mean life doesn't stop just because one thing is happening.

As for skipping them, I too am guilty of glossing over parts in book that seem 'boring' to me but that's just it - they're boring *to me*, someone else might love them, some may be impartial and read them anyway.

Is that the wrong way to look at it?

chompers · Jul 7, 2015

BusyHoneyBee said:
Oh no believe me I'm not adding them for any of those reasons, I can't help but feel the need to make it seem like not everything revolves around the MC, sure she's heavily involved with the main plot but I don't see why she can't get involved with the other characters' lives too, I mean life doesn't stop just because one thing is happening.

As for skipping them, I too am guilty of glossing over parts in book that seem 'boring' to me but that's just it - they're boring *to me*, someone else might love them, some may be impartial and read them anyway.

Is that the wrong way to look at it?

The way I see it is it's okay that the story is centered around the MC. They are the MC, after all. I think of it like if it's me, I won't know what's going on in someone else's life unless I'm a part of it or someone tells me about it. Is it self-centered? No. I'm just not omniscient or omnipresent. Everything has to filter through me.

And that's how I approach my characters. But I don't write omniscient POV.

And it's okay to gloss over parts of a book. It means the author dropped the ball in keeping your attention.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 7, 2015

chompers said:
I think of it like if it's me, I won't know what's going on in someone else's life unless I'm a part of it or someone tells me about it.

So if for example the sub-plot involved characters that the MC needed to work closely with and spend a lot of time around, that would be alright?

Jamesaritchie · Jul 7, 2015

"Write for yourself" should not mean writing anything that pops into your head, or putting something into a story simply because you want to out it in the story. "Write for yourself" should mean "write the kind of novel you would love to read if someone else wrote it".

Would you really enjoy reading the novel you're writing, if someone else wrote it, and you had to shell out beer money to read it? If not, then you aren't writing for yourself, you're just lacking discipline, and being self-deceptive.

Do you really want that sub-plot? The answer is easy. Would you enjoy that sub-plot if you had to pay to read it? If the answer I no, then get rid of it.

Writing whatever you would truly enjoy reading is a good thing, but self-deception is always bad, and this is what "write for yourself" frequently turns into when the writer doesn't understand what it means.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 7, 2015

Jamesaritchie - thanks, that's some good advice. I personally love sub-plots because they give a story depth IMHO, but I'll make sure I keep what you said in mind when writing my own

BethS · Jul 8, 2015

Exactly what JAR said. Would you pay money to read what you're writing? If not, then write something you would pay money to read.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 8, 2015

BusyHoneyBee said:
Jamesaritchie - thanks, that's some good advice. I personally love sub-plots because they give a story depth IMHO, but I'll make sure I keep what you said in mind when writing my own

I don't mean to say that sub-plots are always bad. They aren't. But too many new writers use them for filler, or use them in a way that takes away from the main story, or use too many, or use them in a way that has nothing to do with the story. The best use of a sub-plot is to show that the character is a real person, and has real problems outside whatever the main problem he's facing is.

The first test of a good sub-plot is why it's in the book. Does it matter to the story? More important, does the story matter to it? In one way or another, the story itself, what happens to the character, should resolve the sub-plot. If it doesn't, the sub-plot is probably filler.

Readers care about story and character. All else is there for verisimilitude.

BusyHoneyBee · Jul 8, 2015

Yep I totally agree, all of the sub-plots that I actually put in my story intertwine or are caused by the main plot in some way, and as for making the characters seem real that's the main reason why I put them in

'Writing for yourself' - sub-plots and romance

BusyHoneyBee

krinaphobia

Debbie V

Mentoring Myself and Others

BethS

BusyHoneyBee

Gateway

You Are My Density

BusyHoneyBee

TheCthultist

Kept ya waiting, huh?

BusyHoneyBee

blacbird

BethS

BusyHoneyBee

BethS

BusyHoneyBee

chompers

BusyHoneyBee

chompers

BusyHoneyBee

Jamesaritchie

BusyHoneyBee

BethS

Jamesaritchie

BusyHoneyBee