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Murffy

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That's a great graphic.

I've read where there was a kind of circular dynamic of European immigration in the 19th C. The U.S. was able to produce great quantities of food cheaply and export it to Europe. This undermined the peasant farmer systems in Europe creating bunches of underemployed people who then sought opportunities in the U.S.
 

CWatts

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The whole interview is worth reading, but I thought this comment from The Americans' showrunners could be of interest in how they balance period details (note that the 1980s is not historical...yet):

Weisberg: If you have too much period detail, the viewer feels like you’re trying too hard—it pulls them out of the world. All we want in the whole universe is for the viewer to be lost in the story and feel like it’s real, and not feel what we sometimes call the authorial hand, because that breaks the reality of it.

Fields: I think that’s the key is that it’s not a matter of tonage, really, it’s a matter of it being essential to the characters and story. We did an entire episode about the movie The Day After, and a chunk of it was our characters just watching the movie The Day After. To us, that didn’t feel like a period reference, it felt like what our characters were going through at that time.
 

autumnleaf

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Weisberg: If you have too much period detail, the viewer feels like you’re trying too hard—it pulls them out of the world.

it's a fine balance (isn't it always?) It's so tempting sometimes to pile on the details. I remember reading a book that was set in Britain in 1986 and someone mentioned the Chernobyl incident. It wasn't relevant to the plot, it just seemed like "hey, here's a reference so you know when this is happening", and it took me right out.
 

Lakey

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it's a fine balance (isn't it always?) It's so tempting sometimes to pile on the details. I remember reading a book that was set in Britain in 1986 and someone mentioned the Chernobyl incident. It wasn't relevant to the plot, it just seemed like "hey, here's a reference so you know when this is happening", and it took me right out.

I call this the "name-dropping" approach to establishing a setting. I'm trying desperately not to do it, or at least not to do too much of it. I want you to read my book and know it's the early 1950s because of the cigarettes and martinis, because of the casual sexism, because a young woman got kicked out of college for lesbianism, because a McCarthyite civil servant is trying to root out all the commies and queers in his office, and so on. I want you to know it because of characterization and story elements that are essential to the time. Not because "Someone turned on the radio and Jo Stafford's latest hit blared into the room." That feels like a cheap shortcut to me.

But not all name drops are automatically bad; and I find it hard to know when I'm being too tough on them. Is it so bad if someone backs the big Packard down the driveway? If a character's face reminds another character of Maureen O'Hara? If someone else volunteers for the Eisenhower campaign?

Maybe the key to striking the balance is: If you've got characterization and story elements that are true to the time and place, then a few name drops are extra color; but if all you've got are name drops, nothing integral to your story, then it won't feel authentically historical.
 

autumnleaf

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But not all name drops are automatically bad; and I find it hard to know when I'm being too tough on them. Is it so bad if someone backs the big Packard down the driveway? If a character's face reminds another character of Maureen O'Hara? If someone else volunteers for the Eisenhower campaign?

Those sound like details that add to the story as well as setting the period. The car is part of the narrative and knowing it's a Packard makes it more real. Comparing a character to Maureen O'Hara gives picture of what she looks like, and also possibly gives some insight into the things your POV character sees (maybe she's a film buff or has a particular liking for redheads). They're not just name drops.

I'm trying to figure out if I can slip a reference to the Gunpowder Plot into my narrative. It does take place during the timeframe of the book, and it fits somewhat into the issues the characters are facing (religious differences, bigotry, using violence to achieve aims). But it happens a long way from them and news travelled slowly in those days, so I'm wavering/
 

snafu1056

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Yeah, certainly sounds like something anarchists would hate.
 

autumnleaf

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Currently trying to write a couple of chapters set in Morocco, and I've fallen down a rabbit-hole of research. Thing like whether or not the 17th-century Moroccans had tajines (yes, earliest mention is 9th century) or mint tea (no, didn't arrive until 18th century), who was in charge at the time (there was a succession war from 1603-1627, because of course I would have to choose a period when everything was complicated), and names (this comes in quite handy: http://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/moroccan-names.php#.WudTbYgvxaR).
 

Tocotin

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Currently trying to write a couple of chapters set in Morocco, and I've fallen down a rabbit-hole of research. Thing like whether or not the 17th-century Moroccans had tajines (yes, earliest mention is 9th century)

Hey, I'd love to read about that! *hint hint*

Researching food is one of my favorites. Right now I have to find information on both Japanese and French cuisine of the late 19th century, and I'm having problems with the latter >.<
 

Lakey

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CWatts

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autumnleaf

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Dooo iiiiiit! You can base a fictional character on her. Her existence makes your character plausible. Go for it!

Seconded.

Seriously, to have a Muslim lady pirate in current political climate (oh look I'm rhyming!) is such a noble goal.

Or move the story 41 years earlier?

Go for it!
You could always give her a granddaughter who took up the family business....

The information about the real-life character is pretty slim, so I'd have to fill in most of the details anyway. Sayyida al-Hurra isn't even her real name; it's a title meaning something like "Governor Queen". But "Muslim pirate queen" is just too juicy a character to let go.
 

Belle_91

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You had me at Muslim pirate queen, autumnleaf. I'd think agents--and publishers--would be foaming at the mouth for that. Good luck! Also, 41 years isn't too off the mark. If someone were to complain about this, in my opinion, that's super nitpicky. Others might disagree, but I, as a reader, wouldn't get that upset by the mention. Just maybe include it in your afterward that she wasn't around in the given years of your story. Again, this is just me.

I have a quick question. I see a lot of agents say that they're seeking "sweeping historicals" and I'm unsure of what that means. Is it just a common phrase used to describe historical fiction? Or is there a difference between a regular old historical fiction book and a sweeping historical book?
 
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autumnleaf

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I have a quick question. I see a lot of agents say that they're seeking "sweeping historicals" and I'm unsure of what that means. Is it just a common phrase used to describe historical fiction? Or is there a difference between a regular old historical fiction book and a sweeping historical book?

I think "sweeping" means something like broad scale, epic, big themes. So Gone with the Wind, for example, would be "sweeping". The opposite would be something on a smaller scale, such as Girl with a Pearl Earring. I think there's room for both types, although different agents and readers have their own tastes.
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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I think 'sweeping' is sorta a vague term to mean the story is big - either because it covers a substantial length of time, or multiple settings, or a large number of significant characters. The events are big, important, world changing. The themes are universal, fundamental, profound. It's the grand subject matter that requires a large canvas, and a step back to take everything in - the Cistine chapel, rather than a detailed portrait.
 
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CWatts

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*sneezes* *dusts off a glass and pours some (virtual) tequila* Wow it's kind of dead in here....

I need to get my butt in gear and write, but meanwhile I came across this source. I love finding primary sources esp. when they're the exact era I need.

https://archive.org/details/handbookforimmig00amer
 

CWatts

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Wow! Thanks for that, CWatts.

You're welcome. FYI while it's focused on immigration, there's a ton of economic info for anyone researching the Gilded Age. Note though that wages and prices listed would change dramatically when the Panic of 1873 hit - it was the worst depression until the 1930s.

I do wonder if I'm being too cute having my character decide that taking a maiden voyage on the then-new White Star Line is not a good idea.
 
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