Scenes vs. Narrative

It's hard for me to understand this problem, because in my story, scenes have to occur in a specific, linear order or the plot doesn't work. I guess it follows the 'scene/sequel' structure where characters make decisions and take actions, and the next scene occurs as a consequence of those actions and decisions. There simply isn't a way that I could move the consequences out of sequence.

So perhaps it isn't a problem with your narrative 'transition' between scenes, but rather with your plot. Does one plot event cause the next to happen as a consequence, or complicate a previous situation, so that events logically build on one another to create escalation, or are all the events unconnected?

Basically, do you have scenes and sequels, or a string of pearls? (I'd advise you to read up on those terms if you're not familiar with them - it might help analyse what's not working in your story)

Hmm. How does your story begin? What happens next, and why? Keep asking yourself this until you get to The End.

While I've never had trouble writing sequel per se, I do find that the emotional glue in them which makes one scene flow naturally into the next can be tricky business to get juuuuuust right.

This is why I find it hard to believe that anyone writes out of order, or moves scenes around after-the-fact. For me, I have to be in the current headspace of the story to get the emotional tone right. If I don't nail it in the first draft (which I do, 80% of the time), it takes 3-8 rewrites to get it right later on.

Unfortunately I don't have anything helpful to say, just letting you know I find that those parts are tricky too.

The purpose of a scene is to introduce and/or deepen a story conflict, which must then continue to be expanded on or resolved in subsequent scenes. Everything builds on what came before. I honestly don't know how you write a story where the scenes are not connected in this way. But what you need to do, possibly, is rewrite, starting at the beginning, and make sure that each scene leads logically into the next one. That may mean creating a new outline, one that makes more sense.

Uh, no. I write in sequential order. I have, however, in the MS I'm editing now, moved a scene or two to an earlier time frame, because I needed a few months to pass before the next big event. On a rare occasion, I do switch paragraph positions. But that's about it. No big struggles.

I also place my avatar in an upright position, though, so maybe it's just a personality quirk. Mine, not yours.

As someone who writes out of order and without an outline, yes, it is possible to shuffle things around. It's how I always start out with a new story. I write whatever scenes that come to me, THEN I rearrange them. Where I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that you work with an outline. So you should already have an idea of the overall plot and pacing. So forgive me if I'm not answering your question properly

Sometimes things can be shuffled around and still make sense either way. But which one has the most impact? Which one provides the most clarity? Which one better accomplishes your goal for the scene (e.g. tension)? Other times it just wouldn't make sense, where instead of things moving from A to B to C to D it's now A to B to D and the scene is either weak or, worse, confusing.

I'm sure a lot of this is already common sense to you, but just think through the steps again, slower if necessary. Then you'll get a better feel of where you need that bridge or if you can just end a scene as is, with a scene break. At least, this is what I do -- I shuffle things around and think about how it would impact things and what it would accomplish vs. having it in a different order. Which is the strongest choice? I ask myself a bunch of questions in order to get a better sense of the best route to take.

Sorry if I'm not answering your question.

Two McMillion said:

... What I find more difficult, however, is stringing those scenes together into a narrative. The transitions or connections between them are much harder to write. I've noticed that most of my revision has been about moving scenes (or paragraphs, or sentences) rather than changing them.

I'm struggling to provide the piece with an overall unity separate from the individual scenes, a sense of flow and direction. As it is, without strong transitions or connections, things often come off as an unrelated jumble of vignettes or without a sense of purpose. It seems to meander when in reality each scene has a very specific job.

I'm interested in hearing if anyone else has experienced this problem, and if so, how you've tackled it.

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I've never experienced anything like it. I find myself wondering how anybody could write a story like that. I'm afraid this will sound snarky - but I'm not surprised at all you've ended up with the problem you describe.

Maybe this will help you. What is your story? That means: Who is your MC and what problem is s/he trying to solve? (forex - Frodo's problem was to destroy the Ring)

A story is about a person trying to solve a problem, complicated by conflicts, in particular between his/herself and a major opposing force.

If you are writing without that - you could end up with a list of scenes that are difficult if not impossible to connect...

This is why I never think in terms of scenes when I write. I never write a scene, I write a story that starts on page one, and ends on page last. Scenes are simply incidental things that happen on their own.

There's no way in blazes I could write a bunch of scenes and then connect them into a unified whole. Well, not without doing twenty times as much work as I'm willing to put in.

I don't think I could even sit down and write an individual scene. To me, it's one long story, and if people want to call what happens here a scene, and what happens there another scene, that's fine, but it isn't how I wrote it.

Two McMillion said:

In other words, in my outline I have a list of things that need to happen in a given chapter. Each of those things happens in a particular scene I've written. I can write these individual scenes well enough that I am pleased with them. What I find more difficult, however, is stringing those scenes together into a narrative. The transitions or connections between them are much harder to write.

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Not all scenes have to be connected with transitions. That's why scene breaks were invented. For example, a change of POV can and probably should be accomplished with a scene break. If you're denoting a passage of time with a single POV, you can use phrases like "The next day," "An hour later," etc. For changes in location, you can use clauses like "They left the house and drove to a Denny's."

Pick up a few books and see how others have done it.

Maybe your scenes are too complete in themselves. For every question a scene answers, it should also create a new one. That's how you create momentum, by stringing the reader along. If a scene just answers questions without posing new ones to maintain interest, it becomes a speed bump. And now the next scene has to work extra hard to keep the reader interested. Maybe your scenes are just answering too many questions and not creating any to keep the story moving.

Kallithrix said:

It's hard for me to understand this problem, because in my story, scenes have to occur in a specific, linear order or the plot doesn't work. I guess it follows the 'scene/sequel' structure where characters make decisions and take actions, and the next scene occurs as a consequence of those actions and decisions. There simply isn't a way that I could move the consequences out of sequence.

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Maybe this would be more of an issue if there are 2-3 pov characters, and they're separated for part of the story, and the things they do are logical cause-effect for each of them, but not necessarily for each other until later in the story.

If that makes sense. Consider George RR Martin's novels. While we know that each of Tyrion's chapters is in order as per Tyrion, and each of Arya's as per Arya and so on, unless two characters happen to be in the same chapter (which doesn't always happen), we don't always need to know if Tyrion did X before or after Arya did Y. At some point, the consequences of different character actions converge, but that might be some chapters down the line.

Or if the writer is trying to decide whether to tell certain things out of order, as per non-linear narrative structure. Margaret Atwood does this sometimes.

Otherwise, I think this is a good point. In a typical story, things happen in the order they do for a reason.

So perhaps it isn't a problem with your narrative 'transition' between scenes, but rather with your plot. Does one plot event cause the next to happen as a consequence, or complicate a previous situation, so that events logically build on one another to create escalation, or are all the events unconnected?

Basically, do you have scenes and sequels, or a string of pearls? (I'd advise you to read up on those terms if you're not familiar with them - it might help analyse what's not working in your story)

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As a rule, transitions between subsequent scenes where some time has elapsed between need not be elaborate.

End scene or chapter where Bob is going to try X

Start scene one week later.

Bob had ample time to have second thoughts about his decision over the following week. But when the day dawned... [start scene]

Okay, this is a bit hokey and cliched, but see what I mean? It doesn't take much to orient the reader in place and time.

I don't write transition scenes unless they have a purpose. And when I rewrite a draft it is often in a different order to the first draft. My stories are always told scene by scene - it's how I prevent a saggy middle.

With a little more information, we might be of more help, but the OP seems to have done a post and run.

That's the second one. Are we doing something wrong these days, friends?

Maybe they got what they needed and are furiously writing somewhere.

If a scene doesn't fit into a story or novel. It might be better to leave it out. Or it could be left in.
As a sample if the novel was about a hot summer. A scene of a person, a character only in this one scene, sitting in a park eating ice cream; showing it is a hot summer, can be in the novel. This could be left out without changing the total idea of the novel.
While in the same novel, a person, another character in the one scene only, buys a book at a store; would be left out since it has nothing to do with a hot summer.
The writer decides what is in the story or not in the story. Still don't what to put in a lot of scenes just because scenes have been written.

Two McMillion said:

I'm currently in the revision phase for a novel I'm writing, and have come to realize what one of the biggest things slowing me down is. As I have revised, I have cleaned up the writing and voice quite a bit, of course, but the biggest part of my revision hasn't been changing scenes or elements; it's been moving them around.

In other words, in my outline I have a list of things that need to happen in a given chapter. Each of those things happens in a particular scene I've written. I can write these individual scenes well enough that I am pleased with them. What I find more difficult, however, is stringing those scenes together into a narrative. The transitions or connections between them are much harder to write. I've noticed that most of my revision has been about moving scenes (or paragraphs, or sentences) rather than changing them. I'm struggling to provide the piece with an overall unity separate from the individual scenes, a sense of flow and direction. As it is, without strong transitions or connections, things often come off as an unrelated jumble of vignettes or without a sense of purpose. It seems to meander when in reality each scene has a very specific job.

I'm interested in hearing if anyone else has experienced this problem, and if so, how you've tackled it.

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I use Scrivener and one of the advantages is that it is really easy to rearrange the scenes. I have moved things around. I have also written threads of things that I want to tell the reader in bits instead of all at once that I put into a folder and move as needed. Getting things to flow between the scenes has involved a lot of rewriting as well.

I'm a little surprised at how many people don't move scenes around. To each your own, I guess.

I move scenes all the time while I'm revising. Usually it's because I'm revising plot and I want to tinker with one conversation that motivates something else. Sometimes, I discover a completely different direction in rewriting that makes the story a lot more clearly motivated so I'll slide a fight scene out and skip ahead to the pub scene after the fight and add in the fight later. A lot of this is playing with the narrative arc so the tension builds and releases nicely. Once I have the plot down things tend not to move around as much because I can address character issues with more surgical rewrites. I have had some pretty major breakthroughs by switching ordering around, though. It can be daunting to fix a problem structurally but once inside it's surprisingly effective.

OP, what I didn't see in your description of your process was any substantial rewriting. As much as I swear by structural and ordering fixes, sometimes you just have to rewrite through a chunk of story. It's natural for the story to take some finessing and often a fresh pass will help make what scenes you do have more efficient and more functional. Try closing the original document once in a while, too. It's possible to get too far into a plot and then moving bits of it around just breaks the linear order in which readers are reading.

The other thing is that if you are moving stuff around, try to work with some visual aids and tools. Use cards and string to map out where things happen, whose there, when, and so on. When I write for games this kind of stuff is essential because there's so much going on at once and I've borrowed some tricks for revising fiction, too.

Layla Nahar said:

I've never experienced anything like it. I find myself wondering how anybody could write a story like that. I'm afraid this will sound snarky - but I'm not surprised at all you've ended up with the problem you describe.

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Jamesaritchie said:

This is why I never think in terms of scenes when I write. I never write a scene, I write a story that starts on page one, and ends on page last. Scenes are simply incidental things that happen on their own.

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It always amazes me how different everyone's process is. I'm like the OP. I move everything around as I rewrite. Scenes from the final chapter will end up in chapter one sometimes. They get changed a bit, of course. It's usually more that I'll take a conversation between two characters and work it into an earlier scene in a different setting than it is I take the entire scene as a whole and move it. Although that does occasionally happen too.

guttersquid said:

Not all scenes have to be connected with transitions. That's why scene breaks were invented.

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This. But if you don't want to do a scene break, there are all sorts of fun ways to stitch scenes together. All you usually need is one or two sentences.