The Daily Rejection, Vol. 2

pingle said:

TLDR: If you know any US agents that are looking for classical era settings, let me know.

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Just popping in to say if you search Twitter for "#mswl rome" or "#mswl ancient" (no quotes), some agents will be specifically asking over the past 10-ish years. Also Madeline Milleris represented by Julie Barer at The Book Group (she recently got big love for her greece retellings)

litdawg - I've been there myself, fixating on querying/sub more when not working on a new project. I think the waiting period is all about distracting yourself. Best of luck with the new subs - I think closing the CNRs out at 3 months is reasonable enough.

Torill - Very interesting to hear that some of the agents you met and thought beforehand would be a perfect fit weren't... That makes me feel better about querying, when I come to it. I admit although I am way off I've been making note of some "perfect" looking agents and my brain has been getting ahead of itself with the "surely this is just what they're looking for...". Perhaps, though, how agents come across online is misleading. Certainly the agents who have requested a full from me over the years never seemed like ideal fits on paper.

goddess, do link us to your query to have a look at! I will try to remember to go over to QLH to check it out but I may forget, and I'd like to help.

aceafer, I'm glad your agent call went well over the weekend! Was the discussion just about your MS or did you have time for any other chat? I'm always curious as to what agents give away about what's really going on from their side.

pingle, I know how it feels to get used to an unusual keyboard! I had to use hubs' laptop when mine went under and I just hated the experience. Fingers crossed that a repair isn't too costly! On the classification of your MS... historical as a word might be leading you down a misleading path - there does seem to be quite a set idea of what historical means. The classical world doesn't seem to be very common as a setting in adult lit and mostly features famous real life figures ( Caeser/Brutus in Conn Iggulden and Aristotle in Margaret Doody, though those are OLD examples), though that should work in your favour. I guess if you put aside the word historical how would you classify your genre? It might be more fruitful looking at it that way - to use the Doody example, she wrote about Aristotle as a detective, but I'd say those books were more crime than historical.

I've been reading some horrible stuff about YA sales and prospects over the weekend - esp in the UK - it makes me feel very pessimistic and angry, and also impatient to get all my edits done so I can test the waters a bit! Realistically I think I'm a couple of weeks away still. I'm still not happy with Chapter 1...

ap123 - I haven't received a rejection from that specific agent yet. According to her timeline on QueryTracker, it usually takes her 3 weeks to respond. Today is exactly at 2-week mark since I queried her, but I am not going to hold my breath, because, according to QLH, my query letter was a mess. I basically had to rewrite it from scratch.

Patty - Thanks for looking over my new letter. It's always nice to hear some encouragement.

Gen5150 - There're plenty of big name agencies outside NY nowadays. Kristin Nelson immediately comes to mind.

pingle - Thanks for offering to take a look at my query. Hope your computer will work again soon. Or better, while you wait, requests are coming your way! I can't think off the top of my head any agents looking for classical era settings, but if I see any while browsing #MSWL, I'll sure let you know.

RaggyCat said:

goddess, do link us to your query to have a look at! I will try to remember to go over to QLH to check it out but I may forget, and I'd like to help.

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Thanks for the offer. Here is the link if you have time: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?344250-Query-Fiery-(YA-fantasy)-NEW-post-8 (new version at #8)


What do you write? If it's a genre I'm familiar with, I'd love to beta read your beginning chapters.

RaggyCat said:

I've been reading some horrible stuff about YA sales and prospects over the weekend - esp in the UK - it makes me feel very pessimistic and angry, and also impatient to get all my edits done so I can test the waters a bit! Realistically I think I'm a couple of weeks away still. I'm still not happy with Chapter 1...

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What bits have you been reading, RaggyCat? Do you have any links?

Raggy - Good luck on the edits (and the adult beverage of your choice).

Torill - Agreed that you can't tell everything from social media. I more use it as a rule-out metric; if for example the agent is constantly ranting about politics in a way I find grating, well, that's not something I need more of in my life. So that agent would get crossed off my list unless they had a *lot* else going for them. Whereas if an agent frequently says things I think are insightful and/or fun, that certainly doesn't guarantee we're going to be best buddies or anything, but I'll move 'em up the list. It's far from a precise science, but we have so little else to go on when evaluating agents beyond the raw-statistics level.

That said, I tend to lean in the direction of querying widely. My dream agent is the one who reads my book and says oh my god where has this been all my life, and I can't know who that is until I get the book in front of them, now can I?

goddessofgliese - The one full I got on the last book was from a #MSWL agent, but she didn't like another major element of the book, so, yeah. Usually the #MSWL stuff is so specific and idiosyncratic -- "I want something set in Egypt! With lizards!" -- that I just shake my head and move along.

aceafer - Fingers crossed!

Gen5150 - There's a major agency out in California, IIRC, that's talked about the outside-NYC issue. Don't have a link handy, but the gist was that with so much business being done electronically these days, it really wasn't a problem. Nelson Literary, as goddessofgliese mentioned, is in Colorado, and they're a pretty big deal.

Elle. - Woot on the anthology!!

pingle - Computer sympathies. Technology is great, except when it isn't.

I've got nothing on the classical-era market. I can think of a couple of books set then, but they're all mysteries.

R cookies to them what needs 'em, and vitamin C to ap123.

goddessofgliese said:

Thanks for the offer. Here is the link if you have time: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?344250-Query-Fiery-(YA-fantasy)-NEW-post-8 (new version at #8)


What do you write? If it's a genre I'm familiar with, I'd love to beta read your beginning chapters.

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Thanks for linking, goddess! I did forget to go over to QLH after commenting here but I've now read your query. Broadly I like it, and you've got a great hook in that first para. I hope you get some handy feedback which isn't too conflicting!

My book is a YA mystery. If you feel your familiar enough with the genre, a beta read on the opening chapters would be amazing once I'm ready. I'm happy with Chapters 2 and 3 but 1 is still underperforming. I'm happy to return the favour if you need it.

Netz said:

What bits have you been reading, RaggyCat? Do you have any links?

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It was this thread, Netz (which is also linked to another thread, albeit from earlier in the year): https://twitter.com/mollykh/status/1174733389687074818
The agent in question has written some useful threads on this topic in the past. How depressing I find such threads varies depending on how confident I feel in my own work, but it does feel very sad that the UK YA market is being squeezed by the US YA.

Elle, somehow I missed your post earlier. As Liz says, woot on the anthology!

S. Eli said:

Just popping in to say if you search Twitter for "#mswl rome" or "#mswl ancient" (no quotes), some agents will be specifically asking over the past 10-ish years. Also Madeline Milleris represented by Julie Barer at The Book Group (she recently got big love for her greece retellings)

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Thank you! I'll give mswl a try tomorrow I love the Miller books and her audience would hopefully be the kind of audience I would appeal to (argh, slowly dying inside at daring to place myself alongside her, but we've got to target someone). Might sub to Julie Barer when I'm feeling a bit more confident. I'm currently trying to not ruin my chances with the best agents by submitting to them too soon. Plus, I would need to write a proper US query But fantastic to know, and she's on the list now.

Raggy, I so needed to read your words. Yes, I think I'm barking up the wrong tree by labeling it historical. I was for the first few drafts considering it literary fantasy, and I think I slipped into thinking of it as a historical in the editing phase, when I became obsessed with historical accuracy. I suppose when looking for agents and seeing how many are looking for historical and how few ask for fantasy that it seemed a safer bet, but now that I'm actually submitting it's obvious that sending to the wrong agent is a huge waste of time thank goodness I've only sent six submissions out (and the last two were not to well targeted agents but to agents that I knew replied very quickly because I needed to see a message pop up in my inbox to let me know my email address was working they are the only two to respond so far, both with a form R).
Sorry about the bad news what are they saying? I still see YA deals popping up on twitter all the time. They might be comparing data to the all time YA selling high, and admittedly it had a huge peak for a while, but there will always be a demand for it.

Thanks for sharing the link, RaggyCat - very sobering reading!

Thanks litdawg, Pingle, Liz & Raggy!

Pingle - have you tried Juliet Mushens for your submission? I believe she represents historical and fantasy so she might be a good match.

Raggy - good luck with your edits

RaggyCat said:

Thanks for linking, goddess! I did forget to go over to QLH after commenting here but I've now read your query. Broadly I like it, and you've got a great hook in that first para. I hope you get some handy feedback which isn't too conflicting!

My book is a YA mystery. If you feel your familiar enough with the genre, a beta read on the opening chapters would be amazing once I'm ready. I'm happy with Chapters 2 and 3 but 1 is still underperforming. I'm happy to return the favour if you need it.

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Sure! Send it over whenever you are ready.

Thanks for your feedback on my query. But seeing the two newest critique, I think I am more confused than ever. LOL.

Agreeing with Torrill and LizV re social media and querying. I think it can be a false flag re who is/isn't a good fit for your mss. And often the mswl tags (not when it's part of #mswl days, but random mswl tweets) seem to be a momentary whim, not a serious I'm looking for X set in Y; more of oh! what a bizarre article, this would be a great book, kwim?

Goddess--I find QLH to be a really useful tool, but it can also be very confusing. IME you have to run the feedback through your own filter, once you've got the basic questions answered. It's almost never that there is a consensus re when a query is good or ready, and in some ways that's ok, bc you're sending to individual agents with individual preferences.

Pingle--you've only sent a handful of queries, you can do this!

Best wishes to any/all I've missed.

I think I've finally turned the corner with this illness, took a shower yesterday and didn't immediately have to sleep for 3 hours.

Thinking about my avoidance of writing a synopsis, maybe later this week I'll start playing with one. Ugh.

ap123 said:

Agreeing with Torrill and LizV re social media and querying. I think it can be a false flag re who is/isn't a good fit for your mss. And often the mswl tags (not when it's part of #mswl days, but random mswl tweets) seem to be a momentary whim, not a serious I'm looking for X set in Y; more of oh! what a bizarre article, this would be a great book, kwim?

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i agree with the "whimsy" angle, but i think sometimes it works out for other people that are not me lol. also, popping in to let everyone know that it IS #MSWL day today lol (i have nothing to contribute rn just waiting for query responses and my betas, I'm calling it at the turn of the month, are MIA)

S. Eli said:

i agree with the "whimsy" angle, but i think sometimes it works out for other people that are not me lol. also, popping in to let everyone know that it IS #MSWL day today lol (i have nothing to contribute rn just waiting for query responses and my betas, I'm calling it at the turn of the month, are MIA)

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Thanks for the heads up! How often do they have a MSWL day?

Elle, I haven't submitted to her before but I recognise the agency. Always good to have a recommendation, thanks.

Ap, hurray for feeling a bit better

S. Eli said:

i agree with the "whimsy" angle, but i think sometimes it works out for other people that are not me lol. also, popping in to let everyone know that it IS #MSWL day today lol (i have nothing to contribute rn just waiting for query responses and my betas, I'm calling it at the turn of the month, are MIA)

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lol, true, re it sometimes working out for other people.
I am going to be checking out the #MSWL hashtag today, I seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of hope, maybe it will give me a boost.

Thank you, Pingle!

goddessofgliese - that's good, having an agent inviting you to submit your next project!! I've had a look at your query (will crit in a bit more detail later), and I doubt very much that one would have ruined your chances with an agent who likes your voice (ie your writing!). What will matter is whether she likes your concept this time around. And while I do believe the concept could perhaps have been a little bit clearer in your query, it is there. Don't give up hope yet!

Yes, QLH can be confusing, because there isn't any clear consent about what a good query should look like. Some will look at clarity of concept, grabbing hook etc, others will crit the writing itself – use of active 'strong' verbs, voice etc. And we as writers do have different tastes and opinions on writing etc. so - you will have varying opinions.

It's a good idea to let the crits sit for a while – days, a week – then come back to them and see what resonates with you. Go with that, disregard the rest. Don't try to please every critter. You shouldn't write by committee, whether it's a query or a novel, that will never work. I agree with ap, it's the pages that really matter, where your writing really needs to shine. Clear, concise description of a great concept in the query, stellar writing in the sample pages, that's what does it, I believe. (Unless you're querying agents who won't see sample pages, that is…then the query needs to do both…)

aceafer - that sounds so encouraging with the 121! Absolutely agree, don't rush your edits. if she's interested in your writing now she'll still be interested a couple of months from now as well. Make it the best you can before sending it out. As for not getting your hopes up, yeah, good look with that! (I would totally - these days, after the two requests for fulls I had at the festival, I'm oscillating wildly between wow I've totally made it! and what was I thinking, they're so going to reject me – on the back of a piece of toilet paper!!)

Glad to hear you're doing beetter, ap! (or should I call you Mrs Fringle, rather? ) And yes I would rather not spend forever querying, sigh… Kind of hope those two fulls now (or one of them) will do it, so I won't have to... Neither realistic nor wise, I know… And yes, synopsises (sp?) suck! Big time!!!

Congrats with the flash fiction, Elle! You really have that down, don't you!
Sorry about the rejection litdawg. Here's your rejection cake, enjoy! I won't wish for a quiet inbox for you – here's wishing for an inbox overflowing with offers!

Thanks for the hugs, Patty. Today is one of those days where I really don't believe in anything I've written, ever, how could anyone want to read it, let alone buy it… so good to come here and be among friends. Here's a hug to you as well, and good luck with your project, whether it will be through trade or self pub. You'll make it, I'm sure.

Sorry about your comp, pingle That's so frustrating when the tech doesn't work. I hate it when I have to change my writing habits, hampers so much! Hope your little one is doing better also, and you're not coming down with anything serious! I can't give you any advice on genre – ancient Rome does sound like historical to me, but? Does it have any fantasy elements? I read on Kristin Nelson's blog that Ancient Rome is one of the twelve things she sees the most in her slush pile. She's American of course, so don't know if the same is true for Brit agents. But it does sound as if the competition is stiff there – you really need to stand out. If you write Rome with fantasy elements, maybe that will do it? Make it different enough?

Torill said:

Sorry about your comp, pingle That's so frustrating when the tech doesn't work. I hate it when I have to change my writing habits, hampers so much! Hope your little one is doing better also, and you're not coming down with anything serious! I can't give you any advice on genre – ancient Rome does sound like historical to me, but? Does it have any fantasy elements? I read on Kristin Nelson's blog that Ancient Rome is one of the twelve things she sees the most in her slush pile. She's American of course, so don't know if the same is true for Brit agents. But it does sound as if the competition is stiff there – you really need to stand out. If you write Rome with fantasy elements, maybe that will do it? Make it different enough?

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I was ready to be flabbergasted, as there are very few contemporary books out there with a Roman setting. I think the current Roman book I'm reading was written in the 20s. But I see it's a recent article, and so presumably a newish trend? Ancient Greece has had such big hits over the last few years so it makes sense to me. I genuinely feel like it's a gaping gap in the market. I'd love to know more about her submissions, especially whether they are military themed or not.

So far I can't really tell why MSWL would be more helpful than simply reading an agent bio on the agency website, I was hoping for some truly specific requests that might tell us what isn't saturating the market right now, but I'll keep an eye on it.

pingle said:

I was ready to be flabbergasted, as there are very few contemporary books out there with a Roman setting. I think the current Roman book I'm reading was written in the 20s. But I see it's a recent article, and so presumably a newish trend? Ancient Greece has had such big hits over the last few years so it makes sense to me. I genuinely feel like it's a gaping gap in the market. I'd love to know more about her submissions, especially whether they are military themed or not.

So far I can't really tell why MSWL would be more helpful than simply reading an agent bio on the agency website, I was hoping for some truly specific requests that might tell us what isn't saturating the market right now, but I'll keep an eye on it.

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Because sometimes on these days an agent will tweet something like looking for fantasy set in Ancient Rome, which is often more specific than is on their website, or maybe they don't say they're looking for historical but are currently looking for this, etc.
I'll keep my eyes open for you, if I see anything I'll give you a shout, also YA fantasy, YA mystery, YA romance, who am I missing?

Monday rounded out with another rejection from an agent clearing her inbox before starting at another agency. I made some progress on my conference paper yesterday, and today is full of events and research interviews, so I think it will pass without much obsessing.

ap123 said:

Because sometimes on these days an agent will tweet something like looking for fantasy set in Ancient Rome, which is often more specific than is on their website, or maybe they don't say they're looking for historical but are currently looking for this, etc.
I'll keep my eyes open for you, if I see anything I'll give you a shout, also YA fantasy, YA mystery, YA romance, who am I missing?

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Thank you <3 I imagine I'll be asleep for the end of it.

Torill--I have those days more frequently lately. Nothing feels meaningful. I think it's an illusion--it'll pass. Thank you for the hug!

Pingle--Maybe because there was such an outcry for non-eurocentric/western/you-know-what-I-mean fantasy for a while? I mean, Rome is still Europe, but that's all I can come up with. Certainly there're still a lot of typical fantasy tropes and whatnot at the local writing groups. The topic of trying to do something 'different' comes up regularly. Maybe some people shifted to a more mediterranean vibe. ? I dunno.

ap123...I have a good feeling about Gucknocky house.

Litdawg--Enjoy your conference and your research interviews!

Elle--that's great about the flash fiction, and S.Eli, hang in there --the end of the month is near but maybe one of those queries will come through and goddess--take all the query advice but in the end also trust yourself (I also think opening pages probably matter a bit more...).

If I missed someone... Best of luck with your current endeavors.

I was a little depressed after receiving the two harsh critiques yesterday, but you guys' encouragement made me feel better.

Thanks again. You guys rock!!

pingle - I'm glad what I said the other day helped! I can see so easily how you fell into thinking that your book is historical above being more of a fantasy - I probably would have too, especially when historical accuracy is in your mind. Six queries is nothing, though! Elle suggests Juliet Mushens, which is a good shout - she is the agent who reps Jessie Burton of The Miniaturist fame, historical with a twist. I can see Torill and ap have give you some handy pointers too.

pingle said:

Sorry about the bad news what are they saying? I still see YA deals popping up on twitter all the time. They might be comparing data to the all time YA selling high, and admittedly it had a huge peak for a while, but there will always be a demand for it.

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It's nothing especially new - mostly stuff about how the UKYA market is continually getting squeezed because of the market/promotion/publishing space given to USYA over here. There were some stats included too. The same unfortunately doesn't happen with UKYA going to the US, because it isn't considered to "travel" well as it is too British... which now makes me super paranoid about my own book's chances, though at least it's set in the historic English countryside, which might make make it seem British in a good way? Erm...

ap123, I'm glad your feeling a little more alive! It sounds like this has knocked you out. Are you going to be tackling a one page synopsis or longer? I used to hate writing them more than I did, but I think with queries and opening pages they are less important than we might think as long as they are clear to read. And yes! I am YA mystery. Thanks for keeping an eye out on the #mswl! (and thanks for flagging it being #mswl day, S.Eli, I would have missed that otherwise).

goddess, thanks for agreeing to beta my beginning! I'll send you a message when I'm done, and happy to return the favour if you'd like. I don't blame you if you feel a bit wobbly after QLH. Sometimes people do intend to be helpful but word things in a way that feels very harsh, and sometimes people have very particular ideas of what queries are and won't deviate from it. As others have said, sit and let the crit rest, and then decide what resonates. At the very least, you know you have a great hook which counts big time.

litdawg, gah on the R. Would you like a Tuesday rejection beverage of choice?

I've had an irritating day editing... Tuesday is my best day of the week when it comes to writing as both the Raggy Kittens are in nursery, and I'm always keen to get a lot done, but I had four hours sleep last night and didn't feel very clear headed. This often seems to happen on Monday nights, as I feel under pressure to sleep well (I've struggled with insomnia this year) and it ends up being a self-perpetuating problem as of course I then don't sleep! So I got stuff done, but it could have been better.

This is random but so I beta read A LOT. Like, extremely often (if I'm bored I'll bother people about giving me their work). What I have never done in the past is just look through all the books I'd betad (mostly because my inbox is a mess). WELL, I did that this morning because insomnia, and I found FOUR BOOKS that are being published this year or in the next year lol - well three books and 1 author. I guess I was really good for 2019-20 back in the day. I also didn't know some of these books were being published. I literally went in and was like "this title looks familiar" and got a surprise. It also explains why I don't like this one author--she ghosted me! Every time I saw her stuff, I felt mad lol I assumed it was because she said something mean about my work. NOPE. I looked through and she said nice things, BUT SHE GHOSTED ME. Never spoke to me again after I gave her my comments

I guess I can't leave at that so I'll say I got a partial request! I'm not all too optimistic, but I'm not pessimistic

In case anyone here is thinking of doing Pitchwars, the sub window is open! I'm a YA mentor this year and would love to help a fellow AWer out because this is seriously the best forum on the internetz. Here is the link to Pitchwars submissions.