The Daily Rejection, Vol. 2

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Stytch

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Stytch, Janet Reid posted a while ago responding to a writer whose book was “dead” because the agent had given up after subbing it to 10 editors, but I cannot find the post, gah. Anyway, I seem to remember she was not in favor of that behavior. It all depends on genre and appropriate imprints, of course. In some areas, a sub list of 10 would be appropriate; in others, it would be short. Less than five subs sounds like a “testing the waters” kind of deal, unless the book is very niche.

Unscientific supposition: some agents just don’t want to sub to publishers that won’t pay large advances, while others hope to use potential offers from smaller publishers to catch the interest of larger ones, and are willing to go with a small pub if that’s the only offer.

Ideally, those strategy issues are something the author and agent should discuss before they sign on to work together, because authors also have varying priorities. One person might want a blockbuster deal or nothing, while another might just want the book on shelves with a reputable publisher’s name on the spine.

I wonder if the many gripes I've seen about this are a product of the author not communicating their desires to the agent. I mean, they work for you, so I'm understandably confused to hear of stories where they seem to do a poor job in this sense and then are allowed to give up. If the author is unhappy about that, they should either push for more tries or shut up, I guess. Or communicate better up front about what they want.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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I wonder if the many gripes I've seen about this are a product of the author not communicating their desires to the agent. I mean, they work for you, so I'm understandably confused to hear of stories where they seem to do a poor job in this sense and then are allowed to give up. If the author is unhappy about that, they should either push for more tries or shut up, I guess. Or communicate better up front about what they want.

I was partly lecturing my former self with my post, because I was in a situation where the agent (not my current agent) proclaimed the book “dead” after 10 subs. I wasn’t happy, but there wasn’t much I could do except write more books. Maybe “pushing” works in some cases, but in general I suspect that if the agent loses confidence in the book, or doesn’t want to go through the trouble of selling the book for a small advance, you’re out of options.

So, in retrospect, I wish I had asked about that during the call. My current agent and I did talk about it. Gauging an agent’s degree of stick-to-it-iveness isn’t easy, but it’s worth a try. (It’s a good idea to speak to current clients whose books haven’t sold for just that reason.)
 

pingle

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S.Eli thank you for sharing that information. I must admit I'm a little jealous now (whereas I sort of forgot about PWs by the time the mentees were chosen) as it really does sound super helpful. In-depth critique *swoons* I love that I can hear all about it through you though and wish you the best of luck!

litdawg, yesss, fitting writing in when I have a tiny window of time is sooo much easier than when I have a good five hours of freedom. The problem with that is I often end up writing when half distracted, and make lots of silly mistakes as a result.

Torill, I have had one beta reader read the whole thing (found through the beta project on here), she read it in quarters and read the last quarter fairly recently. The feedback was so helpful, and actually her opinion of the end gave me a much needed boost. Now to get agents to want to read that far... :ROFL: oh and lots of eyes on the first quarter. I would love to find more people to beta swap with. I think you do need to find the right people though, and my book is so long (though not too long for the genre imo) that I don't feel I can ask anyone to read it as a favour. I'm actually getting to the stage where I would consider paying a professional to go over it, which I never thought I'd do, but I have a fear of scammers preying on the desperate, so it probably won't happen.
I did start something new, and it excites me, I was going to nano it, but then I realised that I was using it as an excuse to not query. So that's on hold until I get back into the querying rhythm.
Good luck with your new book and the research! Is it the same genre as the finished MS?

I almost completely re-wrote chapter one yesterday, which agents will see, and I think it was partly because I didn't want to post on here having done nothing significant again, so yay for accountability! I think it's a stronger start, but I need to step back a bit to know for sure.
 
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Elle.

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Congratulations to people who have request for full and/or acceptance! Commiseration for anybody who's received a rejection. Nothing much to report on my end.

Pingle — you are writing adult now, right? I can't commit to the whole thing but I'm happy to take a look at a section if you want.
 

pingle

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Elle, thank you :Hug2: I would truly appreciate some eyes on the updated first three chapters (when they're finished) if you had the time, or as much as you had time to read (editing to add that I mean less than three chapters if you have lots on, not suggesting more!). The changes are quite big but not big enough that I can put my critique group through the horror of reading the start for a third time ;) (and yes, adult now :) )

I would happily read any work in return.
 
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RaggyCat

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Thanks for the insight on PW, S.Eli! It's really interesting to know the processes and also the suggestions you've got. I'm glad your mentor has suggested plucking a later scene to open with like we were discussing the other day. I've often done this myself if I have a less obviously tense opener and handled well it definitely works. It sounds like there's a lot of extra value to PW with the community as well. Keep us posted on developments as it's very interesting!

RaggyCat – yes, I know about the exhibition centre – Norges Varemesse – in Lillestrøm – and you were an exhibitor there? Wow. What was the exhibition (if you think I'm getting too curious, just don't answer, none of my business I know, but - yes, curious!) Orange cake - could be carrot cake maybe? Many variations of those, some of them really delicious. If you ever come to Norway, give me a call and I'll show you around :) (Yes, prices are high – but so are our wages, so … but not good for tourists, I know!)

It was an education exhibition, Torill - universities from all round the world came to exhibit and speak to Norwegian students thinking of studying abroad. The time I went it was Art and Design specific, but I know there were several in that time period. The hotel opposite was lovely, too. I don't think the cake was carrot cake, as it was more orange all over, if memory serves... It was probably something really boring, but just really hit the spot at the time! Prices are quite high here in the UK, but even to me Oslo - and indeed other Scandinavian countries - felt very steep! And thanks for the offer. I will!

Pingle, I'm happy to look at a couple of chapters for you (especially as you were so kind to look at mine). Have you also considered sending your Chapter 1 through SYW? I did with mine (I've just put the latest version similar to the one you saw up last night)and though it was somewhat brutal it was so worthwhile.

If you do decide to hire a professional to look at your MS, Cornerstones Literary Consultancy are totally legit. I know this as I work as an editor for them. One really good thing they do is when you get in touch they'll give feedback on your first ten pages free of charge, so even if you don't decide to proceed you get that much.

Stytch - An agent does work for an author, yes, but an author can't really tell an agent what to do in that sense - part of the working relationship is relying on the agent's commercial awareness and judgement, as in most cases an agent is the one who knows most about the industry and has the key contacts. An agent also has their own reputation to protect, so an author can't force them to sub a project which for whatever reason an agent decides not to. If an agent keeps pitching books she doesn't think are great and getting them turned down, editors will be less willing to look at future books she pitches, so it damages the agent's career.

An agent may also do a great job for the book they signed the author for, then be less in love with future books and put less into them, which is unfortunate, but happens. As Fuchsia says, it's good to have a talk about an agent when it comes to expectations, but an author has no guarantees. An author can at least always walk away from an agent they're not on the same page as.

Fuchsia - I didn't know you had had multiple agents. May I ask how difficult you found finding the second agent? Asking for me, not a friend. :p
 

ap123

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I CNRed a couple of queries this morning, so I sent one new query to an agent I don't think I've queried before, who actually has on his PM page that he reps one "literary hilarious" novel and would love to see more. Since I haven't seen that from anywhere/anyone else, and that's sort of what I've got (though I couldn't bring myself to refer to my own mss as hilarious, I said humorous) I'm reeeeeeeaaaallly hoping he'll like the opening & query and ask to see the mss.

Still thinking about that shadow of an idea for a new story that I do not want to write, but yesterday morning I woke with the narrative voice for it in my head. Not writing not writing not writingnotwritingnotwritingnotwriting....

(I've got nothing to offer re the agents/submissions convo, I've never been agented. but I'm wishing everyone the very best)
 

pingle

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Raggy, thank you :) I would happily read more of your book if you need extra eyes. Email me over a few chapters if you like, I work best in chunks. I know you don't write adult or fantasy, but at this stage I'm not really looking for 'does this have a good fantasy voice/plot', but do definitely want to know if there's enough balance between holding back from the reader to keep them reading on, and giving them enough so that they root for the MC. Basic stuff I guess, which I seem to really struggle with when it comes to beginnings. If you wouldn't mind reading a couple of chapters I would be super grateful.
ETA! Thank you for the info on cornerstones, will check them out tonight, and will also have a read of your chapter on SYW, though if it's similar to what I read I might not have much to add. I did have the start of chapter one on the beta project, so anyone that saw it there might not be interested in reading an updated version, but it's not a bad idea to post it anyway.

ap, I hear you on new ideas. I have started writing mine, I think I'm at 14k, but I've banned myself from putting down another word until I get some submissions out. That doesn't stop the voice of the MC from creeping about in my head though.
 
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polishmuse

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I was partly lecturing my former self with my post, because I was in a situation where the agent (not my current agent) proclaimed the book “dead” after 10 subs. I wasn’t happy, but there wasn’t much I could do except write more books. Maybe “pushing” works in some cases, but in general I suspect that if the agent loses confidence in the book, or doesn’t want to go through the trouble of selling the book for a small advance, you’re out of options.

So, in retrospect, I wish I had asked about that during the call. My current agent and I did talk about it. Gauging an agent’s degree of stick-to-it-iveness isn’t easy, but it’s worth a try. (It’s a good idea to speak to current clients whose books haven’t sold for just that reason.)

(seconding ALLLLLLLL of this, as I had literally the same situation with agent1, but not with current agent, who is also pretty happy MS1 didn't get shot to every editor on the planet because they're willing to polish and sub it after we do the project we subbed now)
 

RaggyCat

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ap, it's always nice to come across a new agent, especially one you have no past query history with and hasn't said no to you in the past. Good luck!

pingle, please send your opening chapters over whenever you're ready! I'm more than happy to look. I've had an afternoon of staring at Gmail waiting for emails that haven't come so distractions are welcome. Understood about looking at the opening chapters for flow of information/hooks/readability/rooting for the MC etc... These are fundamentals, yes, but they're SO hard to get right early on. I think even very established writers still struggle with this big time. I know I do!

Thanks too for offering to read more of mine. I wouldn't say no given you've looked at chapters 1 and 2 already. I'll email you probably tomorrow!
 

Elle.

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Pingle - no problem. I'll DM you my email and you can send them over to me whenever they're ready :)
 

Liz_V

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Thanks for the congrats, all. At least the bio portion of my query is starting to look respectable....

Torill - Have an R cookie with sprinkles to celebrate being back in the trenches!

And R cookies to everyone else who needs 'em, too.

Raggy - Yeah, I've found agents who just sounded like this perfect, perfect fit too... except in my case they almost always don't rep anything I write. (What's up with that, universe?)

Time is a funny thing, when you're in the groove, you figure out time to write. When you aren't, you wonder how you ever did.

This is so, so true.

pingle - At least you're getting a clean house out of it? Maybe we should establish NaHoCleMo (National House Cleaning Month) so we can all procrastinate by writing novels.

Also, go you on the rewriting. Keep at it! I've got this tomato here; pity if something happened to that nice, clean house....

I should talk. My own personal NaNoQueryMo is going well (at least, I'm putting in the time; would like to have more sent queries to show for it), but writing's been almost non-existent. I'm pretty good at doing something if I choose it to be the priority that everything else is let go in favor of; unfortunately I'm no good at all at switching priorities. In theory, it should be possible for one day to be a querying day and the next to be a writing day, etc., but in practice that Does Not Happen.

noranne, keep chugging on NaNo! :Thumbs:


Okay, I know I'm missing some folks, but I'm falling asleep on the keyboard. I should go snowblow the driveway, but I think a nap may be more in order. Cheers and sympathies as needed to anyone I missed.

Zzzzzzzzz......
 

zmethos

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Been out of the loop for a while, in part because I haven't been writing or submitting. Then I had a publisher who liked some of my previous work ask if I could submit something for an anthology, so I wrote what I like to think is a pretty decent story... only to have the publisher tell me never mind, they're folding. So now I'm looking for a new home for this story, have a number of subs out, already one rejection. This story is the *only* thing I've written all year (my last book came out October 2018 and I haven't done anything since besides this). I keep starting and stopping with projects, so now I have a dozen bits and pieces and no motivation. I feel ready to pack it in as a writer.
 

Tamlyn

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:hi:

I'm NaNoing away. A little behind, but I'm enjoying the story. I always enjoy my novels though. It might be easier to fix what's wrong with them if I was a little less partial to them :p

More story rejections, and I really need to get some of my sitting stories back out there. No query rejections, but I don't expect any there. Some of the people I've still got queries with are supposedly responders, but I'm dubious at this stage.

(I had to pause halfway through writing to see what the cats had broken, but it was only a chair pushed over and a bin stolen.)
 

Fuchsia Groan

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Fuchsia - I didn't know you had had multiple agents. May I ask how difficult you found finding the second agent? Asking for me, not a friend. :p

:) It took me about four months and 26 queries (going very slowly and obsessively revising the query, though ultimately I doubt that mattered much). Ten percent request rate, one offer. So in retrospect, not that hard, though it’s not like the book was a Hot Property that everyone was after. (Getting my first agent took years, but that was also me learning about the market and revising my ms.) Explaining why I was seeking new rep was not a problem; I think it’s very common, and as long as you’re professional it’s okay.
 

pingle

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Raggy excellent, yes send them across :) tuesdays are full on with my youngest but I'll have time to read over the next few days.

Liz, ha, I wish my house was clean. I've clearly done a terrible job raising my kids as they are forces of destruction. Clean and tidy lasts five minutes :cry:
I too wish I had the ability to query one day and write the next. So envious of those that juggle projects with ease. I'm very single minded, plus after every break it takes me a few days to immerse myself into the characters, plot, voice etc Good luck with those queries that are going out!

Thanks again Elle!

Right, off to softplay when what I really want to do is rewrite chapter two. Bah.
 

RaggyCat

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NaHoCleMo sounds like my worst nightmare. :rofl: I get you on finding to tough to switch priorities, Liz. It's all about the headzone. That's why I've never been that great at using short periods of time for anything well - sort of similar to what pingle describes, with needing time to get back into the writing zone after time away. I find it easier to do with edits, but when I'm writing new material the need to familiarise myself with what I did last time really slows my progress.

Go NaNo people! And haha about your cats, Tamlyn. Mine are always causing trouble in the background. Once I was working from home and on a conference call and the cat was sitting round my shoulders and randomly went "MEOW" very loudly into the phone receiver.

Thank you for the insight on finding a second agent, Fuchsia! I thought before I joined AW that switching agents would be more of an issue than it is so I'm relieved to hear that it's relatively common (and that it wasn't too hard for you to find another).

Raggy excellent, yes send them across :) tuesdays are full on with my youngest but I'll have time to read over the next few days.

Liz, ha, I wish my house was clean. I've clearly done a terrible job raising my kids as they are forces of destruction. Clean and tidy lasts five minutes :cry:

Right, off to softplay when what I really want to do is rewrite chapter two. Bah.

I relate 1000000000% to wishing the house was clean. I spent hours sorting mine out at the weekend. The Raggy Kittens have already trashed it. I don't know why I bother. Good luck at soft play, pingle! Soft play does my head, but with just your youngest it shouldn't be too bad (I find it stressful atm as my two wind up paying in different areas and I don't have enough eyes/hands). Hope they do good coffee!
 

RaggyCat

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Aaaaaaand it is a no on my MS from sort-of agent (who henceforth I will refer to as ex-agent).

It's OK, I expected this. I just wish I hadn't had to wait a month for it! On the plus side, she didn't say anything negative about the book or suggest that anything was fundamentally in need of revision, and suggested I get to work sending it out to agents. If something was wrong with the script, she would have said (she has in the past) so I'm going to take everything she said at face value and move on. It's simply just not a book for her.

Time to polish the synopsis...
 

pingle

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Aaaaaaand it is a no on my MS from sort-of agent (who henceforth I will refer to as ex-agent).

It's OK, I expected this. I just wish I hadn't had to wait a month for it! On the plus side, she didn't say anything negative about the book or suggest that anything was fundamentally in need of revision, and suggested I get to work sending it out to agents. If something was wrong with the script, she would have said (she has in the past) so I'm going to take everything she said at face value and move on. It's simply just not a book for her.

Time to polish the synopsis...

:Hug2: have some :Cake:
At least you know where you stand now. In a way, although it was worth sending it to her, I think that you'll be happier with a new agent who is a whole lot more passionate. But we all know the hunt for one sucks so I'm sorry you have to enter the trenches. Did she give you any helpful feedback?
 

hester

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RaggyCat, :Hug2:. If it's any consolation the same thing happened to me with my first agent, and the book we parted ways on ultimately got me Agent Number Two. All the best to you going forward!!!!

((((Hugs)))) and R cookies/wine for all who are in need, and congrats to those with requests/sales!!!!!!
 

RaggyCat

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Thanks pingle and hester. TBH I'm OK with her turning it down... while I rate her as an agent, the trust and enthusiasm isn't really there in the way it needs to be going forwards, so it's better to find someone new. She didn't give a whole load of feedback - she said the MC was likeable, which is a big relief as this was my big issue on the last book. She also thought I handled the subject matter with sensitivity and skill. Which, given that includes rape, is good to hear.

I've just spent over two hours prepping a submission to a US agent on Query Manager and then the browser randomly closed and deleted everything. I have everything saved in MS Word but ARGH. :rant:
 

polishmuse

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Aaaaaaand it is a no on my MS from sort-of agent (who henceforth I will refer to as ex-agent).

It's OK, I expected this...

HUGS RAGGY. I left first agent in a very similar way, and honestly? Querying felt so freeing because I was in control of the process again. Best of luck finding that right advocate!!
 

Tamlyn

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Good luck, RaggyCat! Definitely sounds like a good fresh start, even though it means having to query again.
 

Putputt

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Thanks pingle and hester. TBH I'm OK with her turning it down... while I rate her as an agent, the trust and enthusiasm isn't really there in the way it needs to be going forwards, so it's better to find someone new.

There is honestly nothing worse than an unenthusiastic agent. I had a pair like that and I didn't write the whole year I was repped by them because it drained me of all my creative energy and confidence. Raggy, with your publication history, I have no doubt that you'll get snapped up in no time. Leave her and don't look back. You're worth more than an agent who's not willing to go to the bat for you.
 

Torill

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Huge rejection cake for you, ap123 (CNR counts, right– although they might surprise you with a late offer…) :Cake: Sounds intriguing with that 'literary hilarious' agent, crossing fingers for you!! :Thumbs:

Here's a big one for you, too, Tamlyn, for your story rejections. :Cake: Good luck with your novel queries, though, and go you at Nano! :Thumbs:

And here's a cake for your 'sort-of-agent' rejection, Raggy :Cake: – but can I also say 'sort-of-congratulations'? Now you know where you stand, finally have a clear confirmation of what you've known for a while. No longer 'bound' to the hope of having an agent. Like Putputt says, you're worth much more than an agent who don't really like what you write, don't go fully to bat for you – even if she'd tried to sell this book, she might very well have been 'not too enthusiastic' about the next one, and then you'd be back in the doldrums…
So. Good luck with your synopsis, and welcome back to the query trenches :Hug2:. You've done it before, you've got a publishing history, I'm sure your chances are very good. Rooting for you! :e2cheer:

Thanks, pingle. :) The book I'm working on now is in the same universe as the one I'm querying. I'm trying to sell book one as a 'stand alone with series potential' – there is a larger story arc behind everything that I would like to develop further. In a sense, the plot isn't what it seems, either, the protagonist is fooled in several major ways, and the antagonists are someone else than what he is led to believe. So I would love to reveal more of this in book two, while keeping that one, too, a stand alone - a completed story arc, not a cliffhanger thing. But. I do have some doubts – maybe it would be better to write something completely different now (have several story ideas floating around in the dark corners of my mind clamouring to be heard…) in case this first book doesn't sell. So for the time being I'm doing all this research, reading, taking notes, getting ideas, but not being fully committed to writing. Sigh.

I can take a look at your manuscript too if you want – you write adult fantasy, right? Can't promise a full, in depth crit, but I could give you some general feedback probably – how long is it?
(What's softplaying?)

Raggy – Art and Design, how exciting! You do illustrations yourself, too, don't you? (and now I feel like I really have to go to Lillestrøm and hunt for that orange cake! (I love cake…) And you've got a chapter up in SYW - the YA section, is it? I'll have a look if you like. :)

Thanks for the cookie, Liz_V! NaHoCleMo :roll: – I'd definitely do (almost) anything to procrastinate during that one! But then again, I probably wouldn't sign up in the first place, so…
I have been able to switch between projects in the past – this is the agenthunting day, this is revision day, this is research time. But these days, I don't know – have a hard time getting into anything. Too much mental energy tied up in that 'waiting-for-those-Festival-of-Writing-agents to answer me' exercise I guess…

Four months and 26 queries, ten percent request rate, Fuchsia Groan – that's not a bad statistic! :) Good to hear it's not impossible, shameful or even very difficult to get a new agent – it does scare me a bit to hear how common it is to have to go through several agents before you're able to sell your book…

All this talk about housecleaning - nope, don't want to go there. I'm at a cafe writing and reading atm, so going to pretend housework doesn't exist… Our two cats have never done any real mischief in the house. But one of them in particular is very fond of writing cryptic messages to me when I'm working. He walks across the keyboard, sits on it, or pushes at my typing hands. Never been able to figure out the code, though, so don't really know what it is he's trying to tell me…
 
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