The Daily Rejection, Vol. 2

Raggy - it's been out for 5 days, but agent was emailing/chatting on Friday when she was sort of midway through. I think she's finished now and should hear from her on Monday. Trying not to be anxious, but I think I'll at least get feedback even if a rejection.

Clearing out inboxes seems likely (re Friday rejections). Lots seem to do a big sweep/cull in one go.

Raellic - that's a heck of a letter! Something to keep for posterity and interest.

RaggyCat said:

Collie and Shoeless, I have to admit to being quite ignorant of cyberpunk (outside of manga) so this thread has been interesting.

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To be fair, manga in cyberpunk can be pretty damn cyberpunk, especially if you're talking about the classics like Akira and Ghost In The Shell, so I'd say that's still a pretty source to orient yourself from on what's cyberpunky and what's not.

RaggyCat said:

Harlequin, sorry about the Rs! Sometimes when they come through on Fridays I wonder if agents are just clearing out their inboxes. How long has your full been out? I'm starting to feel a bit nervous about the full I have out. When I first queried and secured an agent I had four fulls out in total and they all got back to me within two weeks. Of course, that was years ago, but it's a similar time of year, so naturally my paranoia is skyrocketing.

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Funny how these things vary from one person to the next. My experiences with agents were the exact opposite. My first agent, I didn't use Querytracker, but I know it was months before he finally got back and made and offer. With the current agent, she asked for a full at the end of May, I didn't get the offer in 'till July. I just took a look at my Querytracker stats and a lot of the agents took a few months to read the book, including one, I am surprised to find, who didn't respond at all after requesting a full. I think maybe in your case, people feel compelled to respond faster because of your work. That sure wasn't the case with me.

Lol well, I am not sure about that. No movement on the two remaining partials - one of them said it would be weeks, they're drowning in subs. The other lady requests a *lot* of partials and querytracker suggests she'll take about 50 days to respond. It'll be awhile probably.

The not responding to fulls thing... another poster on AW was telling me about that. Apparently it's increasingly common and that seems shockingly rude to me. One of my CPs had a full out with Rena Rosser and she ghosted him. Didn't answer even when he nudged.

GiTS is a good show. Deus Ex HR has a similar vibe if you are into games at all.

Harlequin said:

Lol well, I am not sure about that. No movement on the two remaining partials - one of them said it would be weeks, they're drowning in subs. The other lady requests a *lot* of partials and querytracker suggests she'll take about 50 days to respond. It'll be awhile probably.

The not responding to fulls thing... another poster on AW was telling me about that. Apparently it's increasingly common and that seems shockingly rude to me. One of my CPs had a full out with Rena Rosser and she ghosted him. Didn't answer even when he nudged.

GiTS is a good show. Deus Ex HR has a similar vibe if you are into games at all.

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Damn. I had a full out with Rena Rossner a couple of years back. Not for the current book, but she DID eventually respond with a short but personalized response after quite some time.

Deus Ex! I'm giving aaaaaaaall the thumbs up right now. Multiple thumbs. So. Many. Thumbs. All those thumbs will transfer over to Cyberpunk 2077 whenever that finally comes out.

I was thinking GitS when it comes to cyberpunk, so that's good to know - my memory of it is pretty patchy as I saw it years ago, though. Plus I remember a couple of other anime series that had more of a historical element alongside the tech.

Shoeless said:

Funny how these things vary from one person to the next. My experiences with agents were the exact opposite. My first agent, I didn't use Querytracker, but I know it was months before he finally got back and made and offer. With the current agent, she asked for a full at the end of May, I didn't get the offer in 'till July. I just took a look at my Querytracker stats and a lot of the agents took a few months to read the book, including one, I am surprised to find, who didn't respond at all after requesting a full. I think maybe in your case, people feel compelled to respond faster because of your work. That sure wasn't the case with me.

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It may have just been that back then was the last days of snail mail, meaning that agents were slightly less overloaded with submissions, or it may well have been my very young age at the time that was attractive. I'm less sure it was the quality of the MS, but I'll never know. It will be interesting to see what happens this time in terms of feedback, and as these are UK agents, I don't think QT will be so helpful. I'm kind of glad in a way that QT is a bit patchy for UK agents else I feel it might send me a bit mad.

Yes - it seems shockingly rude to me that an agent would have a full and either not respond, or send a form. Even if it's a couple of lines, I do think it would only be polite for the agent to tell the author what it was about the MS that turned them off and resulted in the no. Agents are overworked, of course, but if they've taken the time to read the full, that's a more developed relationship than a random query.

RaggyCat said:

It may have just been that back then was the last days of snail mail, meaning that agents were slightly less overloaded with submissions, or it may well have been my very young age at the time that was attractive. I'm less sure it was the quality of the MS, but I'll never know. It will be interesting to see what happens this time in terms of feedback, and as these are UK agents, I don't think QT will be so helpful. I'm kind of glad in a way that QT is a bit patchy for UK agents else I feel it might send me a bit mad.

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I do think that the rise of e-mail has something to do with it. Back in the day, snail mail of queries, then partials, THEN fulls was a HUGE gatekeeper that discouraged a lot of people. With my first agent, he actually did ask for a full, in print. I was living in Singapore at the time and he was in the USA, so you can bet that cost me a pretty penny for a few hundred pages, but he offered representation, so ultimately it was worth it.

It does almost make me wonder how many agents would find they have far fewer queries to deal with if they announced, en masse, they were going back to the snail-mail system. Queries now are so easy, and fast. Really makes curious how much would change if we went old school like that again.

Hrm, I keep going back and forth on that. It would solve the mass-mailing crayon query deluge problem, but it would also discourage a lot of poorer people. I honestly don't know many queries I'd be able to afford if they all had to be printed (plus it'd take ages to send abroad.) Maybe four or five a month? At most? I suspect the other problem you'd encounter is that any agent who broke with that and went back to the digital route, would scoop a lot more sales.

A dedicated reader of queries is good for agents that can afford them and Query Manager software seems good. There's no real ideal solution, though.

I'm hoping to go out into the wilderness with queries again here, shortly.

I can't imagine sending out queries if I had to send out physical copies, considering when I printed off my novel to proofread (no kindle), it cost me a good 40 bucks at Staples.

Thanks to everyone for the congratulations and advice! My full is out with the agent, and I'm doing my best to distract myself while waiting. I wound up sending him the manuscript as it is, no revising, which I hope doesn't come back to bite me in the ass. The agent seems the type to give thorough notes with his rejections, so at the very least, I can look forward to that!

@JeanGenie it is fantasy! Querying has made me irrationally superstitious, and I don't want to jinx my luck by posting the agent's name publicly, so...check your PMs

@Harlequin how exciting! The agent must be very interested to be going back and forth with you like that. All the best with that. And I agree with your point on snail-mailing discouraging poorer people. I live in Southeast Asia, and the postage fee to the US/UK would effectively shut down my ability to query.

I just wanted to comment on non-response to fulls. I had a couple of those myself when I was querying. When I got an offer and nudged, one agent requested my full and I never heard from her again. I kind of had to laugh at that point, because what was the point of that?? Another non-response was from an agency I really liked (and it was a Pitch Wars request!), so I was a little sad that I blew my chance at that agency because of that non-response. But I was happy where I ended up, so it all worked out.

At the time I was kind of surprised at the non-responses (I had a few non-responses to queries too, even after the nudge), and I think the non-responses to fulls are a little rude. But I guess it's good to know that they do happen, and it's not a reflection of you and your work.

Another day, another form rejection. I'm starting to think I'm going to go from a pretty good response rate for manuscript 1 to a literal 0 response rate on manuscript 2.

Harlequin said:

However, the one agent with a full has been emailing additional questions and is either very interested or very cruel (lol) so we will see where that goes.

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Ohhh, sounds promising! I got a "liked what they read so far" with mine, too. Were the questions in line with possible submission (ie: where did the idea come from. etc?)

joeyc said:

I'm hoping to go out into the wilderness with queries again here, shortly.

I can't imagine sending out queries if I had to send out physical copies, considering when I printed off my novel to proofread (no kindle), it cost me a good 40 bucks at Staples.

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Back in the day it was known that manuscripts were re-read by others, so return postage included MS postage. I once had postage be $40 bucks. The one and only time I sent a hard copy MS. GASP.

Jeneral said:

At the time I was kind of surprised at the non-responses (I had a few non-responses to queries too, even after the nudge), and I think the non-responses to fulls are a little rude. But I guess it's good to know that they do happen, and it's not a reflection of you and your work.

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Super-common now, unfortunately.

I finished edits with the agent last week. Perhaps we will send it out to editors soon. Not sure when though, I think they're on holidays (suspicious photo of another country's landmark showed up on Twitter). Bit scary I think, to get rejections so close to the finish line...

Sorry about the rejections, collie. Any other queries still out?

Definitely not just you Jeneral. I know a fair few f people ghosted on fulls.

Treehouse--yes! questions on goals, what inspired ms, past or future projects, publications if any (only short stories for me so far). Had no idea that would something they'd want to know re possible future submission >.> was surprised agents would be interested in that sort of thing at all tbh!

Overall, I'm inclined to think e-queries are a good thing, but agree that it does mean every man and his dog can query agents, and that probably leads to a huge increase in their workload and query fatigue. I well remember the days of dragging back and forth from the post office with manuscripts and SAEs... It was very expensive after a while, not to mention time consuming, and as I was living with my parents at the time and they had recently moved to a tiny village, I had to constantly beg them for lifts to the post office as I didn't yet drive. Bad old days!

Rocoroca - Good luck! I think sending the agent your MS sans revisions is probably the right call. Even though you were thinking of revising the first few chapters, the agent evidently liked them as they were. You can always mention your proposed changes further down the line and see what his opinion is.

Harlequin - Wow, I'd definitely say you're heading in the right direction with that agent, then (and Treehouseman's experieces back that up, too). Exciting! I reckon you can be quietly confident... They are clearly sounding you out. My former agent asked all of these questions too, but they can in the email where she said she would be interested in representing me. Thanks for adding your experiences on the full MS no response phenomenum, Jeneral. It still seems so rude and heartbreaking to me that it happens, knowing how hopeful we writers get.

I'm having a slightly bemused moment of paranoia at the moment because my author Facebook page has alerted me that "people are searching for me online" (how it knows that, I have no idea). I can't think of why someone would be Googling me unless it was an agency but that's probably wishful thinking! Just goes to show that one can read into anything when one is waiting. I think I'm going to distract myself by working on some commissioned artwork I've been asked to do instead...

Very strong R coffees and ice creams (because of the hot weather...) for those of us who need them!

Sorry about the form rejection, Collie. How long ago did you send out the last manuscript. I imagine standing out against the deluge of queries is peak hard right now. I've been writing for years but have only just written queries, and from the replies in QLH I clearly have no idea what I'm doing I wonder how many good books never get read because the there isn't a huge hook in the query or the author isn't savvy about querying (not suggesting you are either of those things, just general musings). I'm really pleased we can send online submissions, but I can certainly see downsides, surely agents must reject more quickly now they have so much to go through? (A bit like tinder and dating )

Harlequin, hope you hear back soon!

Raggycat, if it's out of the blue to get those searches I'd definitely presume it was agents looking you up!

As for me, nothing to report. I'm not exactly looking forward to more form rejections, but no replies doesn't feel great either...

Harlequin said:

Hrm, I keep going back and forth on that. It would solve the mass-mailing crayon query deluge problem, but it would also discourage a lot of poorer people. I honestly don't know many queries I'd be able to afford if they all had to be printed (plus it'd take ages to send abroad.) Maybe four or five a month? At most? I suspect the other problem you'd encounter is that any agent who broke with that and went back to the digital route, would scoop a lot more sales.

A dedicated reader of queries is good for agents that can afford them and Query Manager software seems good. There's no real ideal solution, though.

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Lot of agents have these, they are called interns. I was one three times lol. We are barely paid.

Collie said:

Another day, another form rejection. I'm starting to think I'm going to go from a pretty good response rate for manuscript 1 to a literal 0 response rate on manuscript 2.

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It's too soon to tell. Don't throw in the towel yet. When you've queried 100 agents and gotten no requests for material, re-evaluate. But you are not there yet.

Treehouseman said:

Ohhh, sounds promising! I got a "liked what they read so far" with mine, too. Were the questions in line with possible submission (ie: where did the idea come from. etc?)




Back in the day it was known that manuscripts were re-read by others, so return postage included MS postage. I once had postage be $40 bucks. The one and only time I sent a hard copy MS. GASP.




Super-common now, unfortunately.

I finished edits with the agent last week. Perhaps we will send it out to editors soon. Not sure when though, I think they're on holidays (suspicious photo of another country's landmark showed up on Twitter). Bit scary I think, to get rejections so close to the finish line...

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It's honestly not supposed to be that common and it's considered pretty damn rude, even in the industry...none of the agencies I worked for ever pulled this. You respond to fulls. Even if it's with two sentences, you respond.

Collie said:

Another day, another form rejection. I'm starting to think I'm going to go from a pretty good response rate for manuscript 1 to a literal 0 response rate on manuscript 2.

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It can take a while. I saw on Twitter the other day a writer who finally got an agent after over 700 rejections. I thought I'd been pretty impressive with over 400 rejections, but she blew me outta' the water.

Harlequin said:

Treehouse--yes! questions on goals, what inspired ms, past or future projects, publications if any (only short stories for me so far). Had no idea that would something they'd want to know re possible future submission >.> was surprised agents would be interested in that sort of thing at all tbh!

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That does sound promising. And yeah, agents are usually VERY interested in getting answers to those questions. But only if there's a degree of seriousness. I got all those questions as well, but only during The Call when the offer was actually made. Sooooo... not totally unjustified getting your hopes up in this scenario, I think.

Hmm, very interesting developments here today. So my former agent (who I sent my full, revised MS as she offered to read it) got back to me. Essentially, she felt the changes I'd made were really good ones, and was very positive about the MS as she had really enjoyed reading it, but there are things she isn't wholly convinced by. It was a long email and she explained exactly what there were. There was nothing I hugely disagreed with, and a few things I actually agreed with the moment I read them. At the end she said she'd definitely be interested in seeing it again if I did change things (though she also totally accepted if I didn't want to).

So essentially it's a R&R, but with no guarantee that she would want the MS even if I did revise it. How do I feel about the changes I'd have to make if I revised the novel along the lines of what she was suggesting? Pretty good, actually - initially I panicked because the big suggestions involve making a non-linear narrative linear, and structural changes are scary, but I've since worked out how this could be done quite easily. The changes would push the MS quite firmly away from thriller territory but that wouldn't be such a bad thing. The changes would also make the story simpler, which also wouldn't be a bad thing as there is a lot going on.

What I think I'm inclined to do is make those changes (ho ho, back to the revision cave) and see how I feel about them then. By the time I'm done, I'd hope that the new agent who has my full would have got back to me so I know where she stands (and perhaps also some of the other four agents who have my first three chapters might have got back to me by then, too). If they all blow out then there's nothing to be lost by sending the revised MS back to former agent again.

I feel weirdly nervous about all this, because I have a niggling suspicion I might actually end up with a better book by making the changes former agent has suggested, but new full agent has the other version... Argh. I'm aware this is not a bad situation at all, but I now really wish I'd only sent the MS to former agent and waited to see what she said rather than sending it to other agents too. Why am I always so impatient?

Shoeless said:

It can take a while. I saw on Twitter the other day a writer who finally got an agent after over 700 rejections. I thought I'd been pretty impressive with over 400 rejections, but she blew me outta' the water.

.

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I just saw that today! GOALS! I can do 700 lol

Harlequin said:

Sorry about the rejections, collie. Any other queries still out?

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Oh yeah, and I sent two more out this morning. I may be rejected and dejected but I am also STUBBORN.

pingle said:

Sorry about the form rejection, Collie. How long ago did you send out the last manuscript. I imagine standing out against the deluge of queries is peak hard right now. I've been writing for years but have only just written queries, and from the replies in QLH I clearly have no idea what I'm doing

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I queried manuscript 1 last summer, and technically I still have six (SIX!) fulls out but I would be shocked if those agents even bothered to send a 'no' at this point. I can see at least a sample of their responses on Query Tracker and this kind of wait isn't good. It's interesting, I guess, because it's honesty not like the last query was this mind-blowingly wonderful thing. It was just a fantasy YA with a Strong and Determined (tm) female protagonist and that fit into the market well enough for people to want to at least skim the manuscript. And all the rejections were right - I took a look at it last week and I went, "Ugh, no." One of these days I need to nudge the agents who still have the full so they'll bother to send me a rejection and I can query their agency with The New Book.

(ETA: I also need to start a major revision of the next manuscript but summer vacation is killing me - I just start to work on anything and children appear as if by magic)

RaggyCat - that's good and interesting and also frustrating but mostly good. Good editing notes are always such great things!

RaggyCat said:

Why am I always so impatient?

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I hear you Raggy, I really do! But you don't seem impatient to me. IMO, there's something about this that makes you realize things that you just couldn't have gotten to until you actually submit. No matter how many times you revise beforehand, once you hit SEND, I swear some other process happens, maybe an adrenaline fear response idk Either way, no matter how you look at it, you're better off than you were before you got said feedback! Who knows, maybe your old agent's feedback wouldn't have resonated if you hadn't had those other submissions out there that you could picture being even better

Collie -- Holy cow, 6 ghosted fulls? That hits me right in the feels.

Collie said:

Oh yeah, and I sent two more out this morning. I may be rejected and dejected but I am also STUBBORN.

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That's the spirit.

Raggycat, I totally agree with bwebs, every time I send something out I find a way of improving it afterwards. It's highly frustrating to have not seen it prior, but actually as long as I'm getting better I've got to see that as a positive. That you've got a full out already is a great sign, just because there are ways to improve does not mean you don't already have something of quality. The feedback sounds positive and valuable too.

bwebs said:

Collie -- Holy cow, 6 ghosted fulls? That hits me right in the feels.

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lol, right? It's only been a year - that's well within the bounds of publishing world slowness, right? GUYS, JUST SAY NO! IT'S OK! (Though they are quite right now to want to take it on. It needs more editorial work, as several agents said with varying degrees of tact. And I think this summer I finally found a way into how I wanted to rewrite it from the ground up, but I can't start until fall because of summer parenting responsibilities.)

Collie said:

I may be rejected and dejected but I am also STUBBORN.

)

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Epic quote, Collie! We should all print this out and stick it on our walls. More seriously, though, six fulls ghosted is horrible luck! I really feel for you. However, I am super glad you're able to view this as you are, and be glad that you've got a new, better book now. Honestly, I sometimes think agents go for the generic (Strong and Determined (tm) female character) even though they say they're looking for exceptions because it will sell... Anyway: you have a better book, and you are STUBBORN. This is a good situation!

Collie, Pingle, Bwebs - thanks for your words. I do incline towards thinking things happen for a reason and maybe former agent's feedback has... I've been trying to work out how it could all work this morning and although I can see opportunities cropping up by making the changes she suggested, there are, innevitably, things I'd lose (including my favourite scene between the MC and the LI - argh!). The suggestion I'm least sure about involves writing out a character whose role increased in the last draft... I think I'm just going to make a start and see what happens. Less sure this morning than I was last night!

Yet another form rejection. I haven't sold a single word in almost two years.