The Daily Rejection, Vol. 2

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litdawg

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RaggyCat- My .02 is if there's something in your mss that you know is an absolute no for some people it should be front and center, so they know what they're getting into. Others may, ok will, disagree. The mss I'm currently querying features an unlikeable protagonist who abandons her husband and children (because she wants to, nothing dramatically horrible in the home. I have it in the query and the opening pages. Will a number of agents auto reject because of it? Yes, but because it's pivotal to this character and her story, I want it right there. I don't think someone who would be completely turned off by this magically won't be if I wait until the twenty-first page, if that makes any sense.

This is pretty much how I live my life. Full disclosure avoids ugly bait-and-switch or awkward post-jection instead of pre-jection. In the case of my query, I reference a religious figure in it. Classic SF never shied away from incorporating/reenvisioning religions, but so much contemporary sci fi operates in a Roddenberry-esque secular fantasy world. It makes me think agents have reacted to the atomization of publishing (niche religious market publishers, for instance) by avoiding ALL treatments of religion in general market books and not just the pious ones that could also be published by niche companies. I don't see how I could described the changes of human identity, family roles, and psychological self-awareness in my future world without incorporating religious elements.
 

JJ Litke

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RaggyCat- My .02 is if there's something in your mss that you know is an absolute no for some people it should be front and center, so they know what they're getting into.

To some degree, sure. I roll my eyes at crits with advice to cut swearing in an opening to avoid turning off agents or readers who don't care for that. That's just silly--if there's profanity throughout, don't try to hide that in the opening (and if it's only in the opening, that's misleading in the other direction). The opening should set the tone for the novel. Even if it's a prologue--prologues shouldn't exist solely to front-load backstory or world-building. Especially if you're going to query with it, it really needs to reflect the manuscript as a whole.

So, I'd say whether rape should be included up front really depends on what purpose it's serving in the opening, and how well it sets the tone for the manuscript.

Personally (for what that's worth) I'd be okay with a book that includes that kind of backstory, but I'd be really wary of one that leads with it, for the very reason defined above. My concern would be that it's going to have a heavy focus on those kinds of themes, and I'd rather not read something that's centered around rape.
 

S. Eli

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*ive read everybody's posts but i've been mia for a sec so i won't send catch-up responses*

Okay, so I have a question based on the convo of putting things at the beginning or warning agents about something that may be a turn off. I'm finding that my slow start is a turn off to most agents, even though imho that's the genre. I think them not knowing that I know what I'm doing is working against me because of that, but I don't know how to say "hey i just want you to know that i'm a good writer and the strong voice is intentional to keep readers engaged through the slow beginning thanks"

because i read a million agent comments about how "slow-paced" my book was and i think i got a bald spot b/c of it (my current book is doing the same thing. it works for readers who are prepared to read the whole thing but not for agents who've committed to reading a few pages).

Maybe "please trust me on this you like this book, i promise"?
 

JJ Litke

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Maybe "please trust me on this you like this book, i promise"?

You know it doesn't work that way, though.

This could just be a sign that they aren't the right agents for you, because they favor books that have a lot of action. But there are plenty of agents who love slow burn, and readers, too. That said, if you're getting this feedback consistently, even from agents you think should be a good fit, you should take a hard look at what they're really trying to tell you.
 

ap123

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*ive read everybody's posts but i've been mia for a sec so i won't send catch-up responses*

Okay, so I have a question based on the convo of putting things at the beginning or warning agents about something that may be a turn off. I'm finding that my slow start is a turn off to most agents, even though imho that's the genre. I think them not knowing that I know what I'm doing is working against me because of that, but I don't know how to say "hey i just want you to know that i'm a good writer and the strong voice is intentional to keep readers engaged through the slow beginning thanks"

because i read a million agent comments about how "slow-paced" my book was and i think i got a bald spot b/c of it (my current book is doing the same thing. it works for readers who are prepared to read the whole thing but not for agents who've committed to reading a few pages).

Maybe "please trust me on this you like this book, i promise"?

lol, SEli, much empathy from me on the please trust me. ;) Two thoughts, though. One: haven't you been regularly getting requests? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I'd just accept that my style won't work for everyone. Two: I write slow openers, I like writing and reading characters I get to know a bit before seeing their guts hanging out (so to speak). I think if the voice is strong and interesting enough, and you're writing in a genre where this is accepted, it shouldn't hamper your query efforts. *Please keep in mind I am not an expert, don't work in publishing, have never gotten an agent.
 

S. Eli

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Thanks!

AP, I do get requests semi-regularly, but alas I have no agents (or even prospects). I like that same thing! Writing about teen angst with a spooky atmosphere and a lot of jokes, and then moving onto a turning point where death's a very real thing to these normal people you've gotten to know. It ain't working out. Most agents have put me on the back burner, I'm assuming until I get an offer lol. Jokes on them (and me). I'm in the middle of "my writing isn't for everyone" acceptance and trying to find out what I'm doing wrong.

My rejections would be of a similar "i like action-packed" type comments which is why I don't necessarily consider it them telling me I'm too slow, just that I'm not their cup of tea. I, of course, went through the "so many agents said it so it must be right" phase and that version of my MS received the least requests. JJ, that distinction is why I applied to PitchWars, actually. The reactions of agencies versus readers is so disparate its stressing me out, so I applied to get someone in the middle to inform me of what I'm doing wrong.
 

RaggyCat

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Thanks for your thoughts, ap, litdawg and JJ. FWIW my query and synopsis would both mention rape, so I think any agent picking it up would know what to expect.

So, I'd say whether rape should be included up front really depends on what purpose it's serving in the opening, and how well it sets the tone for the manuscript.

Personally (for what that's worth) I'd be okay with a book that includes that kind of backstory, but I'd be really wary of one that leads with it, for the very reason defined above. My concern would be that it's going to have a heavy focus on those kinds of themes, and I'd rather not read something that's centered around rape.

I think you've put into words what I'm wrestling with well - it's the leading with suggestion of rape that's making me wary. Having it in the prologue does set the tone (and creates tension and foreshadowing in chapters 1 and 2), so for that reason it makes sense to include it. However this isn't a *rape book* (it's a mystery), and it's not centred around rape, though it's key to the story (I couldn't remove it without changing the book's fundamentals, for instance). It's only two paragraphs, but I think given the theme it's quite a big decision, especially as the audience is YA. I think there's probably enough tension in chapter 1 to keep a reader invested, but the tension is stronger if the prologue is there.

S.Eli, you have my sympathy with the "slow start" quandry. I really want to say it doesn't matter, but this book is YA, right? I've read so many blogs and interviews with agents and editors over the year who mention wanting YA books to "start loud". Whatever the reason (being worrying teens don't have patience to read on, believing something big happening on page 1 is essential, wanting to see the hook immediately), a "loud start" does seem to be something agents link with YA, and seem to look for. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it would be a shame for you to miss out on agent interest. Is it possible to pluck a scene from later in the story and open with it? I've used this tactic more than once myself to hook the reader in before building things more slowly - maybe it's not the most elegant device but it's served me well before.
(Apologies if this is worded really badly, the kittens are being VERY NOISY).
 

polishmuse

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RE: the slow start phenom... boy have I been there!

One of the best rejects I ever had for a full included the suggestion to read the book SAVE THE CAT. I think there's a version for novelists specifically now but I read the one for screenwriters. The concept of "saving the cat" was to have an inciting incident to help readers root for/understand the weird/quirky nature of the main character and get hooked to follow their adventure. The rest of the book details beats that are helpful to meet for sensing plot movements, where things might get laggy/bogged down, etc. It's been helpful for doing a rough plot for projects since I've read it, but even applying it to my already written book it helped me sense what backstory my reader needed to know and where. I don't write action-y books. They're mostly about relationships, but figuring out where to put what (or when to trust my reader to get it and just cut stuff) helped me quite a bit.

Anyway, sending rejection rum and cookies and hopeful rum and cookies to those with fulls and partials out!
 

RaggyCat

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I think I've seen you mention SAVE THE CAT before on Twitter, polish. I know I looked into it about a year ago and it was interesting so I'd recommend checking it out.

I'm trying to write a synopsis this morning. Last book I found the synopsis easy but this time round I'm struggling, because I have a VERY complicated plot. UGH. There's no way I'm going to be able to get it down to 500 words. Luckily agents seem less fussy about the length of synopses than they used to be, though shorter is better, of course...
 

goddessofgliese

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There's no way I'm going to be able to get it down to 500 words. Luckily agents seem less fussy about the length of synopses than they used to be, though shorter is better, of course...

I have 2 versions. One at 988 words, the other 520 words. If an agent specifically asks for a one-page synopsis, I send the shorter one, otherwise I send the longer one. As Jessica Faust at BookEnds said, "No agent is going to reject you because he/she thinks your synopsis is too long."
 

goddessofgliese

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My fellow writers, I need your wisdom. I sent 8 queries about 9 days ago, and so far no response yet. According to QT timeline reports/comments, one probably is a CNR, but the other agents probably will take a while to respond. Should I send another batch? Well, if the query letter/opening page doesn't work, then I'm afraid I'll waste another group of agents, but if I wait every time I send a batch, it will take me a very long time to go through the 200 agents on my list.
 
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JJ Litke

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I really like Save the Cat, too. You can google for Save the Cat beat sheets and find free Excel files that you can plug your page numbers/word counts into, so you can see how your manuscript matches to the beats. Not that you need to match them exactly, but if you’re way off, that may be something to think about.

My fellow writers, I need your wisdom. I sent 8 queries about 9 days ago, and so far no response yet. According to QT timeline reports/comments, one probably is a CNR, but the other agents probably will take a while to respond. Should I send another batch? Well, if the query letter/opening page doesn't work, then I'm afraid I'll waste another group of agents, but if I wait every time I send a batch, it will take me a very long time to go through the 200 agents on my list.

I think this is a go-with-your-gut thing. And if you aren’t sure what your gut thinks, try flipping a coin. That can be a helpful technique to evaluate how you feel about a choice.
 

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Hi Goddess,

I'd say that the requests I got came between 4 days and two weeks of querying. Everything that went longer than that was a rejection or CNR.

From what I gather, a really winning query letter can often net multiple fast requests. If you have 200 agents on your list, you can 'afford' to send another batch out, but also FWIW I kept revising my query letter and opening pages and never saw much difference in response rates.

Occasionally you'll come across someone who says that once they started writing to market their requests went way up. That might be the opposite way of saying 'research agents to find the ones who'd like your work.' I doubt I'd write to market, but when I scan through pitch wars 'winners' and the showcase round, it sure seems like the things agents request on MSWL are the things they request.

Maybe something in that response is helpful--that's how it's intended. :) Good luck.
 

litdawg

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My fellow writers, I need your wisdom. I sent 8 queries about 9 days ago, and so far no response yet. According to QT timeline reports/comments, one probably is a CNR, but the other agents probably will take a while to respond. Should I send another batch? Well, if the query letter/opening page doesn't work, then I'm afraid I'll waste another group of agents, but if I wait every time I send a batch, it will take me a very long time to go through the 200 agents on my list.

I haven't formalized my tranche size, but I've seen people recommend 15-20. That's how many I'm trying to keep active at any one time. I think you'd be fine sending out another seven or eight current materials.
 

RaggyCat

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My fellow writers, I need your wisdom. I sent 8 queries about 9 days ago, and so far no response yet. According to QT timeline reports/comments, one probably is a CNR, but the other agents probably will take a while to respond. Should I send another batch? Well, if the query letter/opening page doesn't work, then I'm afraid I'll waste another group of agents, but if I wait every time I send a batch, it will take me a very long time to go through the 200 agents on my list.

200 is a lot of agents to have on your list, so I think you can afford to send a couple more out if your gut is telling you that. If it were me I'd maybe go for a smaller batch this time, but I'm naturally cautious. It's also worth stating that it was Frankfurt last week so slowness can be expected - it may very well be that fast responders haven't had a chance to look at queries yet when normally they would have.

I think I wrote my synopsis - yay! Thanks for the well wishes, polish and goddess. Synopses are evil, but at least you can get away with being dry and factual in them. Queries are worse, I agree!

Speaking of queries... I posted mine in QLH. :scared: *braces self* I don't need to use it yet, but I thought I might as well get it ready in advance. It's only the second query I've ever written and I'm scared it reads as interesting but not very hooky. *breathes*
 
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Stytch

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I have 2 versions. One at 988 words, the other 520 words. If an agent specifically asks for a one-page synopsis, I send the shorter one, otherwise I send the longer one. As Jessica Faust at BookEnds said, "No agent is going to reject you because he/she thinks your synopsis is too long."

Same. I've also got files already made out of "first three chapter" or "first ten pages," etc. Because I'm terrified that I'll accidentally mess up some text (and not notice) the more I touch the "original" file of the entire thing. So I can just open, Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C or attach if that's what they want. I'd love to say I was smart enough to do that from the start, but I was not. Eventually, though, I realized I was seeing the same things over and over in terms of what they ask for, and I went ahead and made the new files. It's been very useful, I highly recommend.
 

goddessofgliese

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Thanks everyone for your suggestion. I think I'll send another batch over the weekend, but a smaller one this time.

RaggyCat, good luck with QLH! I wish I could help, but I'm really not an expert on query letter. I'm open to read the first 10 pages or 3 chapters for any author though, as long as it's a genre I'm familiar with.


I've also got files already made out of "first three chapter" or "first ten pages," etc. Because I'm terrified that I'll accidentally mess up some text (and not notice) the more I touch the "original" file of the entire thing. So I can just open, Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C or attach if that's what they want.

Haha, that's exactly what I do, too!
 

S. Eli

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What's up y'all! Dropping in to say to all my horror/dark fantasy/horror/horror elements folks that #pitDark is today. I've never participated before but it's already going better than pitmad lol

More info here https://jasonhuebinger.com/pitdark/
 

Liz_V

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Hi all! I'm back from England, complete with souvenir cold. We had a great time, overcame some challenges, then came home and slept for three days.

Also, today is the Birthday of Significance which the trip was in honor of. I think I'm going to like being fifty; I don't have to give a damn. Not that I ever much did, but it's like a seal of approval on my not needing a seal of approval.

I'm just diving in instead of reading all the back posts because otherwise I'll never get caught up, but Noranne, I happened to see your acceptance; congrats!!! :e2woo:

Who else had good news while I was gone?

A bit of good news myself: Whilst we were traveling, got a short story acceptance! It's my second pro sale, with one of the big SF magazines which I will name as soon as the countersigned contract comes back, so very excited.
 

JJ Litke

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Congrats, Liv, and happy birthday! :Cake: I’m in my fifties, too, and it’s been great so far.
 

RaggyCat

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Happy birthday, Liz! A short story acceptance is a pretty good present, even with the cold. Where did you visit in England? One of the best things about ageing is giving less and less of a toss about stuff. I'm looking forward to that!

Thanks for the tip about pitdark, S.Eli! Not one for me, but I hope aceafer and other writers of horror/dark who hang out on here get to make the most of it!

I'm mid way through QLH at the moment doing a third query draft and I have to say it is SO worthwhile, so if anyone here is on the fence about posting, I encourage you to. It's amazing - I didn't realise how much of my query was unnecessary until other people pointed it out. I'm not there yet, I'm sure, but I feel my head is more there for sure.
 

Elle.

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Happy birthday @Liz_V and congrats on the short story acceptance.

@Raggy - good luck with your next draft for your query letter.
 
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