The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

RaggyCat

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Good luck, Chibi! Fingers crossed.

I have to say, Tri, on everything you've posted you seem to have a wonderful, supportive agent.

My second editor sub turned into a R. There was praise but the reason given for rejection was "didn't love the voice". This was the worst thing I could have heard. Agent has had concerns about my MC the whole time, and this (although one opinion) implies that the changes I made to try and make my MC more likeable were not enough. I feel kind of despondent about it - I mean, I can go through my MS and nuke every unkind thought my MC has, and rub all her edges off, but I can't help feeling that would leave me with a really bland character?

Agent did also say that YA is tough (we know this) but also that returning as an author (my last book published in 2013) was even tougher... which leaves me wondering if I'm trying to do something where the odds are so stacked against me that its silly? It seems so nuts that I'm pitching from a worse position than the next person, especially as I have some impressive sales figures.

I'm yet to speak to agent on the phone, though I've outlined some possible changes I could make via email.
 

triceretops

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Thanks, RaggyCat. My agent and I just click--been together a long time.

As for your R comment about "didn't love the voice." Okay, I have gotten that one a few times and it really devastated me. I mean it hit me harder than any rejection I'd ever had. Because what I see as voice is actually writing style. It is the style by which you lay down words. So, I immediately think that my writing is fundamentally effed up everywhere. It was about that time that I ran to my agent (again) and cried, "But why would he say such a thing?" "Because", she began, "your voice is your style, your technique. You are unique, different from the rest and that is what makes you stand out. That editor might have a favorite style that he's comfortable with, and if he sees a departure from it, he give it the head shake. If you write Hemingway-esque, and he is a ardent Stephen King reader, it just might be enough to turn him off."

RaggyCat. You are unique.
 

Atlantic12

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Good luck, Chibi! Fingers crossed.

I have to say, Tri, on everything you've posted you seem to have a wonderful, supportive agent.

My second editor sub turned into a R. There was praise but the reason given for rejection was "didn't love the voice". This was the worst thing I could have heard. Agent has had concerns about my MC the whole time, and this (although one opinion) implies that the changes I made to try and make my MC more likeable were not enough. I feel kind of despondent about it - I mean, I can go through my MS and nuke every unkind thought my MC has, and rub all her edges off, but I can't help feeling that would leave me with a really bland character?

Agent did also say that YA is tough (we know this) but also that returning as an author (my last book published in 2013) was even tougher... which leaves me wondering if I'm trying to do something where the odds are so stacked against me that its silly? It seems so nuts that I'm pitching from a worse position than the next person, especially as I have some impressive sales figures.

I'm yet to speak to agent on the phone, though I've outlined some possible changes I could make via email.

I'm sorry to hear this, Raggy. If the book is in first person and the editor didn't love the voice, that's a tough one because it's so fundamental to the story. I still think this is different from likeable MCs, though. It's all subjective, I know, but I don't think it's a matter of rubbing off all the edges of a character. Maybe it's a tweak of how that character sees the world? I don't know. I do know I also had a lot of comments about my main character (in a third person book) as not being morally "good" enough. I had to wrestle with that until I found a fine line between how "bad" and "good" she was. And instead of her being blander, she ended up having more nuance, more facets, than she had before. I have no idea if that kind of nuancing is what will help your character. It would automatically tweak the voice.

As for returning after a long absence, I know of at last one author who hit pay dirt on her third book, which she worked on for something like 7 years. So she had something like a 10 year gap between book 2 and book 3 (standalones). She's not YA, but it does go to show that this is definitely possible. I hope your agent can talk you to a better place, and give you encouragement and maybe help with solutions.
 

RaggyCat

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Thanks Atlantic and Tri - these are helpful comments and I'm touched by both. It's funny how sometimes you need other people to tell you what you'd very easily tell others - that voice so often comes down to personal preference, influenced by tons of factors we really have no idea about. The book is indeed in the first person. I wouldn't be considering changing my MC based on just on editor comment but I don't think agent will be keen on subbing to more editors unless I do something, as she's been concerned about the MC the whole time. I can see tweaks that could me made, and you're right, Atlantic, that sometimes that's all it needs, as based on your experience. My MC is quite hard as a person, and I think it's that trait in particular I could nuance a bit.

It does seem very sad in our industry that it is so hard to sustain a career, and that publishers are so quick to move on from authors, sometimes through no fault of the author's own. Agent call is tomorrow, so I'll see what she says. I think my one big fear is she may not want to sub the book again at all.

(I know I'm only 2 Rs down and that's nothing in the grand scheme, but I'm in an unusually precipitous position given my past publishing history, so two nos are more dangerous than it seems).
 

freelancemomma

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Agent did also say that YA is tough (we know this) but also that returning as an author (my last book published in 2013) was even tougher... which leaves me wondering if I'm trying to do something where the odds are so stacked against me that its silly? It seems so nuts that I'm pitching from a worse position than the next person, especially as I have some impressive sales figures.

If this is true then I'm sunk. Last published book was in 2001. One of my books won an award and the other was a finalist, but sales figures were anything but impressive.
 

RaggyCat

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If this is true then I'm sunk. Last published book was in 2001. One of my books won an award and the other was a finalist, but sales figures were anything but impressive.

I feel for you. I sometimes think winning awards means nothing! Two of mine won awards (and one has very impressive sales figures) but I've no evidence that anyone is interested in any of that. I do think the difficulty of making a comeback depends on the market you're targetting a little. YA is more faddy than Adult.
 

triceretops

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I just hope publishers realize that any of us authors who have back-list titles sitting on Amazon in the millions ranks realize that those books did have their initial sales days back when. Many were top sellers and made most of their income in the first three months or so. I'm always leery about an editor checking my Amazon page and coming away with thoughts of tepid sales or downright failure. I have heard that editors do investigate past sales for your books, but to what degree? If success depends upon a great sales rank (present momentum), then I'm a goner.
 

Treehouseman

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Well, I’m back again. My mother died a couple of days ago, this is definitely up there for one of the Worst Weeks Ever - Greatest Hits compilation. Funeral is on Tuesday, sigh.

No news from publishers, five month anniversary of the offer has cometh and goneth.
 

Treehouseman

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Condolences, Treehouseman.

Seems a very long time for radio silence from the publishers. What does your agent say?

Well, I got a Christmas card? Uhhhhh, probably par for the course I suppose. I’m on the minor league track when it comes to releases so they’ll probably whack together something at the last minute. My release date is 12 months.
 

Treehouseman

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I wonder if that is the key. Not to be seen as desperate in one's query letters.

The difficulty at this stage (you can tell why it’s the next circle of hell, sigh) is that all of us have written successful query letters and snagged our agents BUT all of a sudden that control is out of our hands.

I’m not too certain if anyone knows what the agents are saying to the publishers, it’s sometimes terribly secretive. Maybe they are being desperate. We will never know.
 

RaggyCat

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I'm so sorry, Treehouseman. Condolences. I hope you have plenty of support around you during this dark, awful time and beyond.

That does seem a long time for the silence... is there anything you need to deliver at present, such a draft or such, or is it all out of your hands and onto the next stage where you have little input?

I talked to my agent this morning about my MS... I outlined the changes I could make to address the feedback we received from the 2 editors. She said making changes doesn't guarantee she'll send it on sub again, it's a tough market etc... She said it may be I want to go hunting for another agent again if she doesn't like the changes I do make. Sigh. While I would rather she was honest, and I am thankful for that, none of this feels like progress.

I think I might send her the first few chapters of my new MS before I make changes on the MS she pitched. See what her reaction is to that. It may be that the new one is something she's a lot keener on.
 

Marissa D

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I lurk here a lot, but don't often comment...and what I'm going to say may be taken with a heapin' teaspoon of salt because I have no way of knowing all the circumstances...but RaggyCat, your agent is giving me the heebie-jeebies. Two rejections and she's making noises about your finding a new agent? Honestly, I would not start revising after just two rejections. Voice is an incredibly subjective thing, and the problem might lie in which editors your agent chose to sub to, not that there's anything inherently wrong with your voice.

And I'm in a place very similar to yours--three books out, last trade publication from around the same time, new agent. I'm on sub now with a new book that's getting lots of praise and love from editors (though there has been the occasional "not connecting with the voice") but being turned down because "the audience isn't wide enough." YA has gotten very...constricted, I guess is the word I want. Ten years ago it was wide open, but it has throttled down immensely since then. I'm rethinking whether I should continue to try to write YA, or move altogether to adult as far as seeking trade publication and just publish my YAs through my author co-operative.
 

Atlantic12

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I'm so sorry, Treehouseman. Condolences. I hope you have plenty of support around you during this dark, awful time and beyond.

That does seem a long time for the silence... is there anything you need to deliver at present, such a draft or such, or is it all out of your hands and onto the next stage where you have little input?

I talked to my agent this morning about my MS... I outlined the changes I could make to address the feedback we received from the 2 editors. She said making changes doesn't guarantee she'll send it on sub again, it's a tough market etc... She said it may be I want to go hunting for another agent again if she doesn't like the changes I do make. Sigh. While I would rather she was honest, and I am thankful for that, none of this feels like progress.

I think I might send her the first few chapters of my new MS before I make changes on the MS she pitched. See what her reaction is to that. It may be that the new one is something she's a lot keener on.

Raggy, ouch. I don't get it either, and assume there are some very special circumstances we don't know about. Because normally, subbing to 2 editors is nothing. If your agent isn't 100% behind you, I don't know if it serves you, your book or your sanity to rework chapters for them. I can see moving onto a new book, but I agree with Marissa that the agent seems kind of strange. No agent is better than a bad fit. And if I remember right, you got back together solely for this book, right?

A hard situation to be in. Have a whiskey and think it over, I guess.
 

ShouldBeWriting

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Treehouseman... so, so sorry. Take care of yourself.

Raggycat... I’m impressed at your positive attitude, even though that must be so tough to hear. That’s one of my biggest writing-related anxieties, and the reason I’m so stressed about my own WIP. Hope you hear positive feedback.
 

ChibiUsagi

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Well, I’m back again. My mother died a couple of days ago, this is definitely up there for one of the Worst Weeks Ever - Greatest Hits compilation. Funeral is on Tuesday, sigh.

No news from publishers, five month anniversary of the offer has cometh and goneth.

I am so truly sorry.

You’re in my prayers.
 

triceretops

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Treehouseman, my heart goes out to you. I just lost my ex-girlfriend suddenly. Puts a kink in me.

Raggy, this seems unusual, since I agree with the others. Two editors are one editor away from having my agent and I examine the problem areas. My agent will also inform me if any neg comments are really authentic and not just form messages, in any sense. If she personally knows the editors, which is very likely, she will tell me how much confidence she has in their opinions. Your agent seems a bit on the shallow side. Or too dismissive, I can't figure out which. If I were you, I hang tough and go along with the program for now and try and meet the expectations. But any more negativity from the agent would make me put my foot down and question her reasoning. Best of luck. You're good enough to figure this one out.
 

Cobalt Jade

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I'm sorry, Treehouseman. I know that's very difficult.

I do think the difficulty of making a comeback depends on the market you're targetting a little. YA is more faddy than Adult.

This is what I'm realizing. If Stephenie Meyer came out with a new YA book tomorrow, would anyone be interested? Or have they (readers, publishers, media companies) moved on? I don't think The Chemist did very well in the adult thriller market.

I've taken to watching Booktubers before going to bed... something about them helps me fall asleep (!!)... most of them are young women in their early 20s, some charmingly inarticulate, others very on the mark about the books they review. It's made me realize just how faddy and trendy the current crop of YA writers and YA books are. I can't see any of the writers continuing on with the same thing five years hence, or there being any backtitle interest in the books ten years hence.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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I’m so very sorry about your loss, Treehouseman. Hang in there with the radio silence. It’s one of those low-key agonizing things, I know.

Marissa, I may be where you are with YA, feeling things close in. If only I didn’t have a new YA book that I feel very invested in and Agent seems to like, too.

I’d be very interested to know more about what you’re learning from Booktube, Cobalt Jade. I should probably just watch it myself, but it’s one of those millions of things I can’t seem to find time for.

ETA: RaggyCat, I’m so sorry the agent’s getting cold feet. It sounds like she’s reacting with extreme caution to a difficult market, but perhaps others will love the ms. enough to fight the odds for it (not that she doesn’t love it, too, but there’s always a balance between love and commerce). It can’t hurt to show her the new thing, but I wouldn’t assume she’s the only option out there.
 
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JeanGenie

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This is what I'm realizing. If Stephenie Meyer came out with a new YA book tomorrow, would anyone be interested? Or have they (readers, publishers, media companies) moved on? I don't think The Chemist did very well in the adult thriller market.

When I read this I had to google, because I had no idea she’d even come out with another book! Strange
 

Cobalt Jade

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I’d be very interested to know more about what you’re learning from Booktube, Cobalt Jade. I should probably just watch it myself, but it’s one of those millions of things I can’t seem to find time for.

It's interesting because it shows young people are so passionate about books, and the comments are so unguarded. They want books to be better, better written, with less cliches. What I've been watching is mostly YA booktubers, mostly young and female, and mostly those ones with negative or mixed reviews. They tell me what not to write rather than what to write. And it shows me YA is a business rather like Hollywood where formula succeeds over original quality content. (Yes, I know there are exceptions in both areas.)
 

Marissa D

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They tell me what not to write rather than what to write. And it shows me YA is a business rather like Hollywood where formula succeeds over original quality content. (Yes, I know there are exceptions in both areas.)

Well, damn...but that's another confirmation of my feelings about YA just now. Sigh. I am sure there's good, less cliche-ridden YA out there from self-published authors (amongst the not-so-good stuff), but the visibility gap keeps it from being discovered.
 

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Guys, thanks so much for your comments and engaging with my situation. This forum helps me enormously, and your comments are really supportive and encouraging.

Atlantic, yes, your're correct, agent and I did get back together for this book. Even though she did sub it to editors, I get the feeling that was more a head than heart decision - she mentioned doing it to get feedback, and test the waters. If one of the Rs had been of the "near miss" variety I think she'd have subbed some more, but both were "positive but I don't love it" comments. I also have the feeling she herself has never really loved the MS but recognises that it could sell, which is probably also why she's stalling (could be wrong on this, just my instinct). She does want the best for me, I think, but as I think Fuchsia says, I think agent is merely being super cautious in a very difficult market. And she's probably jaded with this particular MS. That's why I think I'm better off focusing on the new MS for now, and at least getting her feedback on it - but if it's anything less that total enthusiasm, I think both agent and I are in agreement that I'd better hop off elsewhere. The YA market is so bad right now that sitting on the MS that was subbed and revising it slowly can't do any harm. My gut says, too, that as a concept, the new MS might be a better one to relaunch me on - I suspect it's an easier sell.

Marissa, I've seen you posting elsewhere and I think I knew you were with a new agent but I had no idea our publishing histories were so similar. I'm also thinking of switching across to Adult because of the state of the YA market (I've decided that if neither the MS that was subbed nor the next one go anywhere I'll make the leap across then). It's a choice - I imagine like you - I don't want to have to make, but I do start to think that a new start, more firmly distanced from my previous book, might not be a bad thing.

CobaltJade, I'm definitely checking out BookTube now, especially the negative reviews - I find that the YA blogging zone is very 4/5 stars, and it's very hard to come across anything resembling critical analysis. This is why I review books on goodreads under a pseudonym - because I think I would be given a hard time for being critical. I've long suspected the gulf between what readers actually want and what publishers try to tell them they want is there, and I'd love to hear more.

YA WILL pick up as a market, at some point - but my feeling is that is still quite a few years off.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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Thanks, CobaltJade! That was helpful.

I’m still reading new contemp YA that I find great and original (to start with, anything from Courtney Summers, Nova Ren Suma, or A.S. King), but I don’t know how open the market is to books like that from newer authors. There does seem to be a certain lean toward material reminiscent of movie blockbusters, with all the tropes in place, especially in fantasy, which is where the big deals happen. I can’t even imagine competing in that arena (Hunger Games reference deliberate). But there’s also an increasing diversity of protagonists and cultural influences/references in YA, both contemp and SFF, which is awesome.