The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

ChibiUsagi

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YMMV Fuchsia but I read everything, even specifically requested things and revisions. But in those cases, she reads them too. General submissions may never make it to her.

There's also a chance that unless my editor has a personal track record with an agent, I'm the one who wrote the revision notes anyway. She just glances over them.

The hardest part of my job is learning to think like someone else. She needs two of her and I have to be the other one--and trust me, my natural inclination is sometimes pretty far off.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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That must be incredibly hard, Chibi, but interesting! (I had to do a similar thing when I started my journalism editing job; at a certain point my bosses just got inside my head.) Do you write the editorial letters, too, for books she’s already acquired?
 

ChibiUsagi

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That must be incredibly hard, Chibi, but interesting! (I had to do a similar thing when I started my journalism editing job; at a certain point my bosses just got inside my head.) Do you write the editorial letters, too, for books she’s already acquired?

I do but I do a lot for her because she's training me to be assistant editor by 2020. So she tries to let me fly solo as much as reasonably possible. She has fired her last five (yes, five) assistants within 5 months, so I guess when she finds someone she likes, she invests in them.

Fascinating, Chibi! I love seeing behind the scenes.


Editor who has MS on second reads now asked for series synopsis. :snoopy:

That's amazing!

I am so hoping for more good news in the circle.
 

ChibiUsagi

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Sometimes I wish to God I wrote genre fiction.

So many more agents and editors who want to actively acquire. So much passion.

Literary fiction agents and editors love to sit on their asses and sip tea, whilst talking about how they want something "new" and then rejecting everything that isn't written by a 68 year old white man.

:Shrug:
 

Harlequin

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There's an element of that as well in genre fiction. My first ms was pretty far out and nobody would touch it. The more you dive into the literary side of sff, the deeper the waters and the fewer the ships so to speak.

Ms2 I made a concerted effort to write to market, or something like it.

I think I also got fairly lucky, in some respects. Agent is keen on repping autism specifically, and happens to like Sumerian mythology. Right place, right time, right person. Usual thing I suppose.

But yeah fortunately spar and I are not really in competition this time around. She's in sub for an expansive space opera; me for a very close and personal contemp fa.
 

Sparverius

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I concur about literary SFF, it's a tougher sell. My literary fantasy is trunked for now. The data seems to show that after ≈5 books, your (SFF) readership is more likely to follow you to literary or weird territory.
 

Shoeless

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Sometimes I wish to God I wrote genre fiction.

So many more agents and editors who want to actively acquire. So much passion.

Literary fiction agents and editors love to sit on their asses and sip tea, whilst talking about how they want something "new" and then rejecting everything that isn't written by a 68 year old white man.

:Shrug:

I have to admit, I'm actually quite surprised to hear this.

I always assumed because of how much more respectability and cultural cache literary has versus SFF, that literary would be the one that's got all the best prospects and SFF is essentially a cultural ghetto, where we nerds play with our starship and dragon toys. I mean, our stuff is "fun," and is usually aimed first and formoest at entertainment, rather than enriching/changing the world, or making a lasting impact that the critics laud for generations to come.

I would have thought all the crazy passion to acquire new work would be in literary, among both agents and editors, since there's that perception that a great literary work can make a mark on culture/history. To hear you say that it's the genre agents and editors with the passion is... I will have to seriously readjust my perception of how these things are supposed to work...
 

Qwest

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Shoeless, I think you've just stepped into such an interesting debate.

So the real issue here is this idea of "cultural capital" and literary fiction has had that for quite some time. However, in reality, the sales of much SF and fantasy are generally much better than literary fiction. The key word here is "generally". I think that SF and fantasy are a great way of exploring challenging issues in society through entertaining speculative devices. Aside: I am an voracious reader of many different genres - I love SFF and literary fiction, etc. Ursula Le Guin championed the cause of SF and fantasy, basically arguing that the snobbiness towards SFF is a cultural construct - and this is what Chibi notes when she says: "...talking about how they want something 'new' and then rejecting everything that isn't written by a 68 year old white man." In short, she's noting (in very general terms) that the cultural capital of much literary fiction does reside in a locus of writers who come from a system of cultural privilege. This is changing with #diversity. And yes, in the past there have always been exceptions, for example Naipaul who came from humble beginnings.

What I find so interesting now is that I feel I'm seeing the millennial generation breaking through the book world: they are writing and reading many truly wonderful SF and fantasy works. I think that we're seeing a shifting of cultural capital away from the idea of literary fiction as this iconic ivory tower concept. It feels as if there's a shift, a subtle shift, but a shift nonetheless. I think we saw this so clearly with (to use an old example) Harry Potter, that a fantasy work "can make a mark on culture/history." And it's arguably a greater mark than any literary work has made in the last 30 years?
 
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Harlequin

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I would say that it is not new. There is actually a large amount of highly literary SFF, but it's mostly ignored, by readers and critics alike. It has always been there, and there continue to be writers who write it vociferously, but they are not being bought. Two of my critique partners write astonishing literary sff; agents won't touch them. That devastates me, when I think that their novels might never see a shelf.

A few break through, like Gene Wolfe and Le Guin and Zelazny (ahh my heart) to enthrall even critics + find success, but Wolfe is very old and the other two (obviously) are dead. Neil Williamson, Caitlyn Kieran, China Mieville, Nnedia Okorafor and others are part of the modern lit fa, but few of them find wider recognition (and honestly, I struggle with calling Mieville 'literary' but that's another discussion entirely). It is a tough thing to write literary sff atm. Nobody really wants it, nobody really knows how to cope with it. And nobody can agree on whether it is really "literary" or just prettily written. (Some would call Neil Gaiman literary, for example; I would say he is borderline. Subjective, innit.)

I've noticed an uptick in contemporary novels which have a smidgen of speculative element (Kazuo Ishiguro, Emily St John Mandel, and so forth) which are lavishly adored by critics and reasonably successful in the mainstream, and I must admit I find that frustrating. It suggests to me that literary and SFF can only typically be seen to merge when the setting is contemporary, thus excluding secondary fantasy or far future SF. At least readers are more accepting than criticis I suppose.

I could not comment on HP one way or another, since I appear to be one of the 0.005% of the population who hasn't read it >.> Magic schools are not my thing, I avoid that trope in anime too.

Anyway, I digress. Apologies.
 
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Qwest

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Great points, Harlequin, and thanks for the recommended authors. I haven't yet read any Roger Zelazny, so I look forward to that.

I would say that it is not new. There is actually a large amount of highly literary SFF, but it's mostly ignored, by readers and critics alike. It has always been there, and there continue to be writers who write it vociferously, but they are not being bought. Two of my critique partners write astonishing literary sff; agents won't touch them. That devastates me, when I think that their novels might never see a shelf.

I agree it's not new (Octavia Butler is another good example), however, I do feel that SFF and is making good inroads into social consciousness (driven, I'd argue, primarily by the millennials) and is no longer, to use Shoeless's term: "a cultural ghetto."

I've noticed an uptick in contemporary novels which have a smidgen of speculative element (Kazuo Ishiguro, Emily St John Mandel, and so forth) which are lavishly adored by critics and reasonably successful in the mainstream, and I must admit I find that frustrating. It suggests to me that literary and SFF can only typically be seen to merge when the setting is contemporary, thus excluding secondary fantasy or far future SF. At least readers are more accepting than criticis I suppose.

I am really hoping that a new generation of critics might shift this? I agree it's frustrating though.

I could not comment on HP one way or another, since I appear to be one of the 0.005% of the population who hasn't read it >.> Magic schools are not my thing, I avoid that trope in anime too.

Ha ha, it's just such a good example of a fantasy novel that did catch the popular consciousness and entered the literary canon.
 

Harlequin

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It certainly has had an impact! Just not on me personally, so I will take everyone's word for it. (I dont hate it, fwiw, it simply isnt my thing.)

Point taken re cultural ghetto, it feels like a new era for sff, and in a good way.

Lord of Light and the Chronicles of Amber are my default recommendations for Zelazny. Lord of Light is, IMO, one of the most exquisite sff novels ever written.
 

Qwest

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Lord of Light and the Chronicles of Amber are my default recommendations for Zelazny. Lord of Light is, IMO, one of the most exquisite sff novels ever written.

Looking forward!

And to return to the "Next Circle" business, Spar, I'm so excited to hear that you've been asked for a series synopsis :snoopy:
 
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Atlantic12

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OMG. Just got an amazing response from a NY agency wanting to coagent my book in the US market. OMG. OMG. I wish I could share their response because it's OMG.....

:hooray:
 

Atlantic12

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Thanks, Harlequin.

(*breathe, breathe, breathe. . .*)

I came on here to say how great it was to hear Spar's news! It sounds like something good is brewing for you!

And I also wanted to jump in on the genre discussion and say I'm sometimes with Chibi and wish I wrote straight genre because it looks like it's an easier sell, or at least has a clearer and bigger market than what I write. But. .. .. .nah. Right now, I think I'm writing exactly the right kind of stuff! (upmarket commercial/book group/borderline literary).
 

Qwest

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Wow, Atlantic!! That is brilliant news :snoopy: So happy for you after your last NY agent disappointment (which just goes to prove the subjective nature of all this). And it sounds like your genre bending work is doing brilliant things for you.

Fingers crossed, All!
 

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Congratulations to Atlantic and Sparverius for both good news and the promise of good news!

I have to say this thread about SFF and literary fiction is interesting to me as I'm not at all well-versed in either and mostly read crime/thrillers/historical when I do go for Adult fiction. In my experience (although on the YA side), there is a desire for publishers to easily categorise authors, which makes some kind of sense from a marketing perspective. With my first book, I was only signed on the condition that I'd revamp the book so it more clearly sat within a distinct genre. Genre-bending I have to admit is something that freaks me out because I've had no personal luck (and plenty of trouble) with it, but have mostly enjoyed when I have come across it. But then I keep coming back to the fact that all my experience is within the YA market which I think based on anecdotal evidence is going through a very risk averse few years.

And as we know, so much of what gets signed/sells is down to random factors outside out control, and changing tastes. Right now I'm reading here in the UK at least there's a growing appetite for uplifting stories on the YA market and a turn away from psych thrillers and gritty stuff, which I suppose is predictable on one hand, the world being quite a depressing place of late. But I'm not sure too many authors would have predicted that, and, as we know, writing for the market can backfire.
 

Atlantic12

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RaggyCat, I always heard the same thing about the ease of categorizing books for the market. But what I'm hearing now (for my book and others) is that publishers are pretty interested in books that can be marketed in different ways/genres. These are books that have several facets, if that makes any sense, so it has the potential to appeal to different audiences. This is an extremely fine line to walk. It took me years of revision to get my book up to that level.

I also heard the US and UK markets don't see this quite the same way. I think it was that the US market is more open to genre bending, but I'm not sure. Maybe it was the other way around. And I'm not sure about other global markets at all.

And I agree with you --- when I read a book that successfully bends genre, I usually love it. It stands out. I can't be alone thinking this, so I imagine publishers are on the hunt for it too.