The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Shoeless said:

There were complaints that Wade's rival, Artemis, was treated like a stock 80s "girl prize" instead of a real, fleshed out character. The big criticism is that Wade himself embodies the less admirable traits of a typical straight, white, 80s male. When he meets Artemis online, he makes a crack about wanting to be sure she's a real girl, and surgery doesn't count. The twist with his friend Aech is treated with fear and suspicion, and some people claim the portrayal of Japanese characters in the book is cliche, "We are obsessed with honor" stereotypes. Basically over the years a lot of people have turned on the book for what are viewed as homo/transphobic/racist/misogynistic regressive attitudes laced in bits and pieces of the story. I still enjoy it, but I've made peace with the fact that admitting it in certain circles means I'll be judged as a bad person.

In other news, my agent got back to me with the news that an acquiring editor is open to a revise and resubmit. But it's a pretty damn big one, so I'll have to give it a good, hard think about whether to agree to this. In the meantime we've still got other options, so I'm going to wait and see how it all plays out.

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Now that you mention it, I see the point. But the same can be said about a lot of books, that characters are stereotypes, you don’t have time to flesh them all out. Or, sometimes, knowledge. About the misogyny, let’s turn it around and say Wade’s the woman, then the book would get heat for her having to lose weight and get in shape to get the man.

About the ms - what kind of changes do you have to make?

Hi all!

Whew! I finally got back into this thread after being locked out on previous tries with a server error (even after clearing my cookies and cache). I've missed a lot and tried to catch up on the past month (some day I'll read back farther).

Congrats to Cameron on that fabulous cover!!! Love it!

Congrats to Shoeless on the anthology!!! Very cool that you got to be a part of that.

Hugs to diana and others for the Rs. It's early days, right?

As for me, I finished editing my MS for my agent in late January. That was such a process--3.5 months in all. I really understand what Pisco Sour and Fuchsia Groan said about edits upthread. It was very hard to get back into a book I hadn't thought about in a long time--those neural pathways had been set and didn't want to be rerouted! And even though all my agent's edits were suggestions only, most of them did resonate. I'd always felt the story was *so close* but I just needed a reason to really work through my mental blocks on it, and thank Heaven, she provided that. So I basically set forth to keep most of the plot in place while adjusting the three main characters' arcs. It took me three weeks just to get my head around the edit. A bit of a surreal panic started to set in about halfway through, like am I going to be able to do this? But like Fuchsia said about her edit, the goal was to heighten the tension and overall make it more compelling. I have yet to hear back, so I don't know how successful I was, but yeah. At least I did it.

Qwest said:

Bad news for me... Agent 2 is leaving agenting - retirement from agenting. Wow. Heartbroken. It took so long to make such a great connection with someone who really enjoyed my work.

There *might* be a chance of transferring to an agent at the same agency. Will have to see if that transpires. Long shot though. If... big if... thoughts? Will I be the second class client? This has happened to someone I know. And the author eventually split from that agent... Because there wasn't that initial spark - in short that driving connection to the work.

Anyway, any thoughts welcome and appreciated.

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Quest, I'm so sorry to hear about your agent leaving. That's rotten luck. Even if the agency offers another agent's representation, it can be really, really tough to know what to do. I know of one AWer who went through the same thing and was paired with another agent at the agency. As far as I know, they haven't sold with that agent after a couple of years and at least one additional MS, although that's not necessarily a sign of anything amiss.

I'm so new to all this so take what I say lightly, but I think it's more important to find an agent who's excited about your writing than it is to stick with the agency. That said, the specifics of the situation will have a lot to do with your decision. I'm really sorry you have to figure this out, but best of luck with it.

And oops, I somehow missed that Shoeless has an R&R request! Congrats!! I'm only sorry that it's formidable. I'll be interested to see more on this!

Shoeless said:

I still enjoy it, but I've made peace with the fact that admitting it in certain circles means I'll be judged as a bad person.

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People who judge people as bad based on the type of fiction books they enjoy in their leisure probably are not the greatest people themselves. Just my thought.

Gosh Ragged Edge, those edits sound demanding. Quite a task. Hellish. Hopefully your agent will be happy. It sounds like it was exhausting...

Shoeless, I feel you. A big R&R is daunting. I'd also hold off for a bit. On the other hand, it's great news that you do have someone interested enough to want an R&R. My passes have been definite passes. And I've been on submission for a long-ish time, so given where I am with my submission, I'd probably seriously consider it, but firstly those edits have to resonate. BTW: The "Not so Stories" anthology looks really great - a real win to be included, congratulations!

Januarycomet, I have that all the time, ha ha. And it even depends on the day... One day it will be the best thing I've ever written, and the next day: what a pile of junk. Word by word...

Thanks for the feedback and kind words Ragged Edge. Guess I'll have to see what happens. I'm feeling much calmer now, and if (big if) it does happen, it will (like any relationship) depend on how well we connect.

And, yip: I'm with spikeman4444: "People who judge people as bad based on the type of fiction books they enjoy in their leisure probably are not the greatest people themselves."

Happy writing, dicing and slicing all...

Some days I can distract myself from being on sub, whether I'm burying myself in my day job, or a new WIP, etc.

But some days, like today, I feel so hopeless. I'm a month into my 4th time on sub, and feel like no editor is ever going to look at my writing with anything but indifference — like it's simply never going to happen, and I'll forever be left behind.

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

diana86 said:

Some days I can distract myself from being on sub, whether I'm burying myself in my day job, or a new WIP, etc.

But some days, like today, I feel so hopeless. I'm a month into my 4th time on sub, and feel like no editor is ever going to look at my writing with anything but indifference — like it's simply never going to happen, and I'll forever be left behind.

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

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4th time on sub would def make me a crazy person. Is this all with the same agent?

diana86 said:

Some days I can distract myself from being on sub, whether I'm burying myself in my day job, or a new WIP, etc.

But some days, like today, I feel so hopeless. I'm a month into my 4th time on sub, and feel like no editor is ever going to look at my writing with anything but indifference — like it's simply never going to happen, and I'll forever be left behind.

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

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JUST EVERY DAY.




I remind myself that the only thing I can control is the work. So I take the time I need to, and then I get back to work. (Sometimes that time is minutes, hours, sometimes it's days, months.)

Aaaaaaaalso wine.

spikeman4444 said:

4th time on sub would def make me a crazy person. Is this all with the same agent?

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Nope, I'm on my third agent.

januarycomet said:

JUST EVERY DAY.

I remind myself that the only thing I can control is the work. So I take the time I need to, and then I get back to work. (Sometimes that time is minutes, hours, sometimes it's days, months.)

Aaaaaaaalso wine.

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Gah I can't drink alcohol because I get sick to my stomach immediately. Chocolate is my go-to. And yeah, I think I might have to take some time to just pretend none of it is happening. But... so hard.

diana86 said:

Some days I can distract myself from being on sub, whether I'm burying myself in my day job, or a new WIP, etc.

But some days, like today, I feel so hopeless. I'm a month into my 4th time on sub, and feel like no editor is ever going to look at my writing with anything but indifference — like it's simply never going to happen, and I'll forever be left behind.

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

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I've turned my inferiority complex to my advantage in this instance. It's probably an unhealthy survival mechanism, but I'm pretty much convinced that I'm a terrible writer, so I tend to take an abused child approach to almost any progress--or none at all--and am grateful for even getting this far. Basically, if I'm convinced my Imposter Syndrome isn't actually a syndrome and is real, then the worst case scenario of being snubbed, or singled out by an editor as "I just want you to know I personally find not just your writing awful, but you, as a person, are awful, and want you to know this, so you'll do us all a favor and stop writing," is something I'm already braced and ready for. And when nothing happens, I take that as a win, in the same way a kid victimized by child abuse thinks, "I didn't get hit today. That's a good day."

When you expect only the worst, even when nothing happens, that's a positive thing.

diana86 said:

Gah I can't drink alcohol because I get sick to my stomach immediately. Chocolate is my go-to. And yeah, I think I might have to take some time to just pretend none of it is happening. But... so hard.

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Chocolate works! The idea is a reward/indulgence. I've also used cheeseburgers, homemade cookies, favorite bad movies, sleeping in, face masks, mani-pedis, little self-presents, shoes -- you get the idea lol.

The most important thing to remember is that you are, this very moment, getting through it. Even if you obsess the whole time, you'll get through it. So just be kind to yourself!

diana86 said:

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

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Yes. All the time. Especially lately. I'm in a major slump, actually. To the point I don't even feel like writing anymore.

I think this feeling will pass. Hopefully.

In between, I'm trying to focus on an adult romance that's going out for round 2 next week (we'd put it on hold last year when it got close 3 times but still didn't sell). And I'm trying not to stress about a YA that will go out on round 1 in the next few weeks.

Diana86 and MartinaMay Submission is brutal. I've realised that often getting a deal is like some kind of weird luck: being at the right place at the right time when something is trending. Or having George Saunders as your lecturer who puts in a good word for you... ha ha.

This from Januarycomet:

The most important thing to remember is that you are, this very moment, getting through it. Even if you obsess the whole time, you'll get through it. So just be kind to yourself!

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Qwest said:

Diana86 and MartinaMay Submission is brutal. I've realised that often getting a deal is like some kind of weird luck: being at the right place at the right time when something is trending. Or having George Saunders as your lecturer who puts in a good word for you... ha ha.

This from Januarycomet:

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So true!

Just popping in and catching up after taking some time off from the boards to concentrate on something other than current round of submissions. So sorry to read what's been happening with agents quitting, rejections, submission angst... I've had another rejection from an editor at S&S which was a form 'did not fall in love as much as I'd hoped'. Maybe I can't write YA, maybe adult romance is where I belong and I'm kidding myself? So I'm kind of drifting, watching the Olympics, doing a few freebie courses and trying to take care of mind and body. On a huge positive I helped a friend of mine write pitches for a Twitter romance contest this week. She got 5 likes on one of my pitches and three on the other that I did for her so I am CHUFFED to bits.

Keep well, fellow circlers, one day at a time.

Long time no see. Hi gang. I was hoping to see pages full of great deal announcements but at least we're all still going!

My agent just moved to an amazing agency, so I'm really excited. They're #4 for my genre on Publishers Marketplace. This should be motivating me to write, but I just started a new job and that's taking up most of my headspace.

Shoeless said:

I've turned my inferiority complex to my advantage in this instance. It's probably an unhealthy survival mechanism, but I'm pretty much convinced that I'm a terrible writer, so I tend to take an abused child approach to almost any progress--or none at all--and am grateful for even getting this far. Basically, if I'm convinced my Imposter Syndrome isn't actually a syndrome and is real, then the worst case scenario of being snubbed, or singled out by an editor as "I just want you to know I personally find not just your writing awful, but you, as a person, are awful, and want you to know this, so you'll do us all a favor and stop writing," is something I'm already braced and ready for. And when nothing happens, I take that as a win, in the same way a kid victimized by child abuse thinks, "I didn't get hit today. That's a good day."

When you expect only the worst, even when nothing happens, that's a positive thing.

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Oh goodness. Shoeless, you, my friend, deserve wine. AT least a glass or two

spikeman4444 said:

Oh goodness. Shoeless, you, my friend, deserve wine. AT least a glass or two

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I have a bottle of Writer's Tears whiskey set aside for the bad days. I'm covered, my friend.

All caught up on the news, and phew--- we're a stressed bunch between R&Rs and new projects and all. Here's hoping the weekend is relaxing.
I've got little done on my edits, but heard from my agent about the sub we have out right now--- only one editor still pending then we're hanging it up. I sent her (resent?) the other finished project I have that I've already edited to pieces so hopefully we'll ship that out next. Honestly, I think it would make a better debut, so I have my fingers crossed that she likes it. Now, not to nudge her for a few weeks (ties hands behind back).

Got to see Black Panther and it was a-maz-ing. If it's out where you are, I highly suggest prioritizing that this weekend as a break!

Well, I just sent my agent the break up email. Last week she basically pronounced MS 1 dead after a year out on sub, and MS 2 she doesn't "love" so I think it's a logical time to move on, especially given the up and down experience it has been with her. I guess I'll see you all after a while? This is sad. All the best, guys and gals.

spikeman4444 said:

Well, I just sent my agent the break up email. Last week she basically pronounced MS 1 dead after a year out on sub, and MS 2 she doesn't "love" so I think it's a logical time to move on, especially given the up and down experience it has been with her. I guess I'll see you all after a while? This is sad. All the best, guys and gals.

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Wishing you the absolute best spikeman. I hope you find that perfect advocate for your finished MS soon. Can't wait to see you back in this circle!

Sorry to hear that, Spikeman, but sometimes it's got to be done. As you're well aware, there are a few of us here--including me--for whom this is not our first agent rodeo, and we've parted ways with agents in the past to acquire another later. It's never a happy thing when that kind of professional partnership doesn't work out, but if it's NOT working out, and you don't feel good about it, no use sticking with it, it can actively hurt you and your productivity. My wife is on her third agent, but ironically, she's an illustrator. Her first two agents were illustration agents and did not work out for her, but now that she's focusing on children's picture books, her current agent is a literary agent, and she's MUCH happier with that arrangement.

Sometimes it takes a few tries. But it's contingent on you that you keep trying.

I'm sorry, Spikeman. I hope your time in the query trenches goes quickly.

diana86 said:

Some days I can distract myself from being on sub, whether I'm burying myself in my day job, or a new WIP, etc.

But some days, like today, I feel so hopeless. I'm a month into my 4th time on sub, and feel like no editor is ever going to look at my writing with anything but indifference — like it's simply never going to happen, and I'll forever be left behind.

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

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*virtual hug* If it makes you feel any better I'm still aspiring to reach this level of hell. I'm clearly a masochist. But I can't wait to share your misery!

JoyMC said:

Just think, you guys - years from now, when this thread is 800 pages long, shiny new baby writers on sub are going to start looking at this thread from the very beginning and they're going to see us on this page, but we're going to have our book covers in our signatures - covers of books they've read and adored and they're going to go, oooh look, SHE was once in submission hell too! And so was he!! I love their books! Oh, I feel so much better!!!

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I thought it was kind of cool that the above post was the fourth post of 5291, on page 1 of 237 in this thread starting in May of 2015 and her signature line says she'll be published this spring!

diana86 said:

Some days I can distract myself from being on sub, whether I'm burying myself in my day job, or a new WIP, etc.

But some days, like today, I feel so hopeless. I'm a month into my 4th time on sub, and feel like no editor is ever going to look at my writing with anything but indifference — like it's simply never going to happen, and I'll forever be left behind.

Do you guys have days like this? How do you get over this awful feeling?

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Not on sub, just querying my second book. I'm eternally optimistic but there have still been two or three times this round that I've literally cried because I feel so hopeless. There's never been a single moment where I've wanted to give up or said I'm not going to write anymore, but man, it can be demoralizing. For me, I dive into my current WIP to get out of that headspace. I'm so obsessive compulsive that if I don't do something to distract myself it'll drive me bonkers. Hope your days are going better! Glad we're all in this together. Wishing you the best of luck!!

Sorry to hear that, Spikeman. I hope you find an agent who will be a better fit for you soon.