The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Bryan Methods

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I don't know anybody else who has the same agent as me :( I did reach out to one when the signing was announced but they didn't reply. I'd like to be able to chat with some of them! I guess I should really make an effort to go find them.
 

hester

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Guys!!!!!!! I haven't been here in forever, but lovely to come back to good news!!!!

Diane, huge, huge congrats--can't wait for all the deets!!!!! :snoopy:

Treehouseman, ditto--so happy for shiny new agent!!!!

I know I'm probably missing a bunch on the thread, but (((((((hugs)))))) for everyone having a tough time...
 

leewhowrites

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Hey, hope everyone is doing well!

I have a phone call scheduled with my agent later today, to discuss the next steps for my MS. Guessing that publisher from last week hasn't made any offers. Dunno what's going to happen, really... like will we discuss whether to send to smaller presses, or will this be the end of the road? Also, one big publisher did say if nobody else buys to come back to him and he may have edits for me. But they're big edits and I dunno whether I want to undertake them, when I have a new novel I've almost finished writing. So yeah. Hmm.

What are people's thoughts on more independent publishing houses? There's one in the UK called Firefly Press that appeals to me, but unsure whether or not it would be worth submitting to.
 

RaggyCat

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Good luck for the call, Lee! Fingers crossed for good news (sometimes people like to break good news on the phone but email beforehand with bad news to make the call easier... but that's the optimist in me speaking!). Even if the editor from last week says no you're not at the end of the road. You can always stall on the publisher who ask for edits while you investigate smaller houses. Personally, I'd say go for it with the indie publishing houses - your career might end up working out better that way. The money mayn't be as good initially but a large advance can be a curse (if you don't earn it back a publisher may be more likely to regard you as a failiure, and less likely to invest in future books and your career - it's happened to so many people). I feel like an indie may be more nurturing and supportive, too; authors can get lost at large houses (happened to me - feel free to PM me later down the line if hearing about it would be helpful).

Firefly has a pretty good rep from what I've seen and if you're prepared to do a lot of social media promo yourself it could work out well. Rhian Ivory I think is an example of an author who's made that work well. Also, aren't Firefly in Wales, and you are too? Sounds worth pursing before getting back to the editor whose edits you aren't sure of... I guess also now you've two books almost complete you may wish to reconsider which book to hopefully launch your career with?
 

leewhowrites

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Thanks, RaggyCat! I agree about the independent publishing house thing. I'd be extremely daunted by a large advance, I've always said that. All I want is to be able to start launching my career as an author. Is it much harder to sell books when you're with an independent house, though? Like, will the big booksellers stock them, like Waterstones, etc?

And yes, Firefly is in Wales! I don't know if that would influence their decision in offering me anything, though, would it? I was quite drawn to the fact that they're Welsh, however, haha! Rhian Ivory seems to have done well with them, as well as Eloise Williams! So there are actually some pretty successful writers with Firefly, and of course they've won the Branford award thingy. Are there any other middle-sized houses in the UK that you would recommend pursuing? I see a lot of Disney Hyperion, but I imagine they're actually quite big, and I wasn't submitted to them. Also, Ink Road?

The thing is, I do love the book I've got on sub. It would really pain me, as it would any writer, to let it go for now if it doesn't sell. However, I may stand more of a chance with my new MS, which is slightly more MG. I just don't know! I guess this is all stuff I'll discuss with my agent tonight.

Hope you and the little one are okay?
 

RaggyCat

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Lee - Sounds like you have (what I think is, anyway) exactly the right attitude - unless you're a breakout success a career is a slow build, and the author has to do a hell of a lot of work themselves with publicity, networking etc. I'm no expert on the indie houses but I do know getting a book into Waterstones isn't an automatic for a new author, and it's something of an achievement to get that - shelf space is really limited, and even if you do get a book into Waterstones, it may not stay there depending on sales. With YA that matters a bit less as so many of the buyers are adult readers who'll hear about it from word of mouth online, and will buy on an e-reader or via Amazon anyway... With MG I think having a book in Waterstones matters much more, as you're more reliant on the parent/guardian buyers. That said, I don't know if someone like Rhian Ivory, say, is in Waterstones? Might be worth checking! Or you could spend an hour or so in the YA section of your local Waterstones looking at the publishing houses of the books they stock to see how many indie books are represented (maybe a bit of a sad activity but a useful one!).

I've heard of Ink Road but Firefly is the main one I know of - although, are Chicken House indie? If I remember correctly the Writers and Artist Yearbook has a section on indie and smaller presses, so might be worth checking out for some names.

See what your agent says about which MS you stand the most chance with. I know there's been more investment in MG recently, but that's got to wane sometime... I guess one thing to tell yourself is even if you do have to put your YA on the shelf (and I hope you don't), no MS is ever dead, unless it's really topical or of its time. So you might always have success with it in the future. or reuse characters/parts of it.

Me and little one are doing well thank you! He's giving me plenty of time to write (the toddler isn't, but that's another story)...
I think next week my MS will be ready to go out to agents again. I'm cautiously optimistic, though I do worry (quite a lot!) my MS doesn't tick any of the current trendy boxes in YA. I maybe should have been savvier about that. :-/
 

leewhowrites

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I'm pretty sure I've seen Eloise Williams's books at my local Waterstones! In fact I just looked on the Waterstones website, and her books are available on there (didn't check any of the other Firefly writers, though). I've googled some of their other authors and they seem to do quite well in terms of nurturing a career as a writer. It seems quite organic, as in they slowly build on their careers, which is nice. As much as I do dream of getting a book deal with one of the big publishers, I think I would be really intimidated by it as well. Maybe starting off with a smaller press would be a better way in? Hmm.

Yes, will definitely see what my agent says tonight. I'm actually quite looking forward to speaking to her. Usually when I actually speak to her on the phone it's to discuss changes to my book, so I was always quite nervous to speak to her then (will she love what I've written? Hate it? I just never knew!), but today is to discuss the next steps. We might decide to put this MS on the backburner for a while, but that's okay. I think I've mentally prepared myself now for it not to sell (it's still with some publishers, so if it does it will be a lovely surprise). But I'm now quite excited about my new MS, so I'm actually feeling okay about it all.

Awwhh is he sleeping lots for you? I'll probably be asking you for parental tips as well when myself and my husband adopt! Haha!

Ooh, that's super exciting! What genre is your new YA, then? Sometimes it's best not to write to trends, though. We all know what the publishing industry is like in terms of trends!

I also have another question... how do I go about finding somebody to critique/beta read my new MS? I've never actually done that before, but I feel I need somebody to read over it once I've edited it, but before I send it to my agent. I've always been so solitary as a writer, I think it's time for me to reach out.
 

RaggyCat

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Ooh, organic career building sounds promising! I honestly believe that's a better way into career. We can probably all think of several authors whose debuts blazed onto the scene, and then whose careers went very quiet when the debuts didn't sell so well, or when book 2 was not as successful as book 1. Also, I think the YA market is particularly flaky when it comes to careers.

Being excited about a new MS is the best place to be in with potential disappointment round the corner - it will honestly soften the blow of rejection if it comes. It's funny, you always think when you write a book that you'll never fall in love with your next manuscript in the same way, but you always do! It sounds like you sort of know which next steps you want to take though, which will mean you'll get the most out of the call with your agent. She'll I expect offer advice but leave the ultimate decision to you.

Yep, newborns sleep most of the time. :) I've been following your adoption blog via Twitter and very excited for you! I know it can be a long process but I hope it goes smoothly for you both. And yep, my new book is YA. I've actually struggled a bit to categorise it genrewise, but I'd say it's a character driven, quiet kind of thriller - sort of emotional suspense, the same kind of thing as Cat Clarke writes. I really hate trends, they're so fickle, but I can't help worry I've written something no one's crying out for.

I also have another question... how do I go about finding somebody to critique/beta read my new MS? I've never actually done that before, but I feel I need somebody to read over it once I've edited it, but before I send it to my agent. I've always been so solitary as a writer, I think it's time for me to reach out.

There's a beta reader forum on AW where you can put out an appeal for a beta reader, and see who responds. I did a trade with a writer on there. I'd offer myself but I'm useless on MG! Other posters might have some other tips?
 

leewhowrites

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You're absolutely right. I'm becoming increasingly aware that you haven't 'made it' as a writer once you're published. Staying published, or getting published again, is a constant battle and brings with it a fresh set of anxieties. A smaller press might mean more of an opportunity to grow naturally.

And re the blog, thank you! Having lots of fun writing it, actually :)

Oooh, your YA sounds interesting! I love character driven work! Have you got a list of agents that you're going to sub to?

And thank you! I'll take a look :) I just want an extra pair of eyes, which I've never done before! My MS that's on sub atm, my agent is actually the only other person who has read it!
 

Isobel

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Lee, It sounds like you have a lot going on! I hope your call has some good news at least. With Beta readers, I'm like you -- the only other person who has read my manuscript on sub is my agent. But I did the Beta Project here on AW like a month ago, and I just got some really phenomenal, useful feedback from someone. (The BP is like matchmaking where you read a bit of people's work and offer to read.) But like RaggyCat says, you can go on the board at any time and try to find someone to read or swap with you. I think getting the right match is probably pretty important, but there's probably no way to tell without trying.

RaggyCat, Congratulations on wrapping up your revisions on your new manuscript. As someone just about the enter that process I know how challenging it is -- especially when you're working on structure.
 

leewhowrites

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Isobel, thank you! Ooh that sounds interesting! Is that an ongoing thing? I think I'll just have a gander over to that board to see what I can find. Thank you for the info!
 

RaggyCat

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Thanks, Lee! Yep - I've got a list of agents to sub too. Unfortunately I blew some of my better options in my first round of queries when my opening chapter was weak, which is annoying. The book is so much better now so I just hope someone bites! I'm impressed that only your agent has read your book on sub, I'm still lame and run all my writing past my parents (hubby not a fiction reader, sadly). ^^;;

Isobel, glad you had a good experience with the beta read project! I really wanted to do it but my MS wasn't quite ready and the deadline on here was at a bad time for me so I had to pass. I had a really good experience beta reading for another AW member and really enjoyed going through her MS. The way we did it was to trade our first 50 pages to see if we were a decent match and we enjoyed each other's work; there's no point beta reading if you don't get on with what you're reading.

I'd actually love to get a beta reader for my MS now I've finished the changes and would love to swap with someone - I'm best off for YA, though probs not fantasy as I've not read any for years. I might need to slink over to the beta forum too unless anyone on here is interested.
 

rainbowfish

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Leewhowrites, for what it's worth, I've heard something different about going with a small publisher: a larger publisher down the road may decide your previous work didn't sell enough copies for them to take you on, even if the small publisher didn't print many copies to begin with. A medium sized publisher may be a safer way to go. I live in the US though, so maybe there's a difference.

I'm going to be looking for an additional critique partner or two down the road for MG, but I'm only halfway through a first draft of my second manuscript right now. You can also find beta readers by joing kidlit groups on Facebook. The drawback is that it's very mixed as far as experience level goes. I've actually had more luck on Twitter. There's an author there who matches people up, and she's pretty good at it.

I agree that it's essential to swap a few chapters first!
 
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ChibiUsagi

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Hi guys! I am new and possibly shiny.

I am technically on sub 5 places right now, but those were requests from before I found my agent--just a few weeks ago.

I am meeting her next week. Does anyone have any advice?
 

polishmuse

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I am meeting her next week. Does anyone have any advice?
Congrats and welcome!
Question: does she know about the houses you're on sub to? If not, I would lead with that, but I'm assuming you have.
Advice:
Ask about how she'll handle new projects that you're working on and at one stage in the process she would like to see it
Ask how often she communicates during the sub process (after each rejection or once a month/week, etc)

I'm sure the others will chime in
 

JeanGenie

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Congrats ChibiUsagi, and please let us know how it went! :)

Thanks guys, lots of useful advice here. I hope I have it under control, but I really have no clue. All I know is I usually don't have the patience to plot much, so now I had to reel myself in many times to keep from just starting to write the damn thing X-D Hopefully this is for the best, but I don't think I'll ever finish plotting in my head.

I've also heard that R&Rs don't expire, I just put a lot of pressure on myself to deliver on time. I may secretly think that the prospective agent will judge me on it, despite what they say.
 

Shoeless

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I am meeting her next week. Does anyone have any advice?

I would also ask her if she has any general ideas about the direction to take you/your career in. Most of the time, this shouldn't be too big an issue, because the agent will likely say, "Keep doing more of the stuff you're doing now."

But if what you just did was an experimental YA fantasy, and you're usually a lot happier with adult romance, or you're normally a horror/dark fantasy writer, but your "test" as a science fiction novelist kind'a worked, but horror really is your wheelhouse, then there might be some problems. It might also be an issue if you ARE planning to do different things in the future, like eventually trying your hand at Middle Grade, even though normally you do adult/YA. If your agent doesn't represent MG, you'll have to go looking for someone else to rep it, and squeeze that time in to write it while you're doing your "normal" stuff for your agent.

But like I said, most writers won't have to worry about that. I actually do have a couple of MG novels sitting around, even though I normally do adult, so... yeah, I can't do much with 'em with my current agent.
 

Bryan Methods

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Leewhowrites, for what it's worth, I've heard something different about going with a small publisher: a larger publisher down the road may decide your previous work didn't sell enough copies for them to take you on, even if the small publisher didn't print many copies to begin with. A medium sized publisher may be a safer way to go. I live in the US though, so maybe there's a difference.

This came up in this thread a few times, but this was broadly the advice I got from my agent too. She strongly advised that the best place to target the manuscript was large independent publishers. She said the major houses would be less interested in developing writing over time or helping with marketing. It's worth considering, though of course everyone's experience will be different!

Hi guys! I am new and possibly shiny.

I am technically on sub 5 places right now, but those were requests from before I found my agent--just a few weeks ago.

I am meeting her next week. Does anyone have any advice?

Welcome! I just replied to your other thread. Nice to have you here!

When I met with my agent, the only really important thing was to find out if we clicked! It was also a good idea to discuss projects down the road. What other ideas you've been mulling over, and whether the agent likes any of those.
 

Earthling

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Leewhowrites, for what it's worth, I've heard something different about going with a small publisher: a larger publisher down the road may decide your previous work didn't sell enough copies for them to take you on, even if the small publisher didn't print many copies to begin with. A medium sized publisher may be a safer way to go. I live in the US though, so maybe there's a difference.

This is my understanding, too. A publisher hears you sold 50 copies and that doesn't look good, even though you were with a tiny publisher with no marketing reach or distribution. Sales of 3,000 with a larger independent look much better.

Having said that, I have an m/m novella coming out with a small press in December. :D For my m/f novels I'm still aiming for Big 5 or large independent, but I'm happy with this placement. At least *someone* thinks I'm publishable...
 

leewhowrites

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Thanks for the advice, guys.

The convo went really well with my agent. We're still waiting on 3 publishers, but 1 of them we can safely assume is a no, the other wouldn't be an ideal match, and the other is extremely swamped. So my agent said she doesn't want to keep waiting, so we're going to move on, however obviously there may be a nice surprise response from one of these publishers one day! So we haven't had the outcome we wanted with my manuscript, but it's okay. My agent made me feel really good about it because lots of editors said this book wasn't really for them, however they'd love to see more work from me. So I'm feeling extremely lucky to be in this position right now anyway. My book has been read by some of my dream publishers, so I'm counting my lucky stars to have gotten to this position in the first place. And they are open to seeing more work! Yay!

Anyway, there was one editor who said that if nobody else offers, to go back and speak to him because he has revisions. BUT, they're huge revisions. So we're going to see how enthusiastic he is... if he's lukewarm, I'll probably want to shelf the book for now and move on. If he's keen and wants to actually speak to me and stuff, then I might consider doing the changes. It's a big publishing house, so even if he offers a smaller advance (agent said this is likely, as he'll know the book has no other offers so I would pretty much have no option but to accept a small offer because it would be the only offer I have! Cheeky, but it's business I suppose), it would be incredible to have a big engine like that behind me.

So that's the plan for now. Agent is going to approach that publish and see how he responds. In the meantime, I'm going to finish my current MS (probably going to finish it this week, yay!), so that if I get a lukewarm response from the editor then at least I've got something new to show my agent.

So I feel ok. And hopeful, despite not having really had the outcome we wanted. Yet (still possible with those 3, I suppose).

Sorry for the essay, guys! I appreciate all of your support and insight :)

Ooh, Earthling! That's exciting. Are you publishing under the same name for the m/m novella?
 

RaggyCat

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Hi guys! I am new and possibly shiny.

I am technically on sub 5 places right now, but those were requests from before I found my agent--just a few weeks ago.

I am meeting her next week. Does anyone have any advice?

Hi! Welcome!

I'd first and foremost see if you get along. I'd also recommend getting a measure for how she reacts to your future ideas for books, and what kind of direction she would see your career going if your MS on sub gets picked up. Ideally, she should want to stick with you for beyond one MS. Also, you could ask her what the plan is if your MS on sub doesn't work out for the places it's with. Does she plan to send to more editors? Or target smaller presses? But really, the most important thing is to come away feeling like you're on the same page.
 

RaggyCat

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So I feel ok. And hopeful, despite not having really had the outcome we wanted.

Hey Lee, disappointing is it is not to have had a yes yet, this is a really good way to be feeling! Editors were positive about you as a writer even if the book wasn't right for them, and that's the best kind of no to have. It may be they respond more positively to your new MG novel, and you may later down the line fancy adapting your YA to be MG (definitely it would be a good idea to get details from the editor who suggested this even if you don't go with him - no harm in picking his brain!). But you have a plan, and a new book, so I'd say you're in a pretty good position! Let's hope your agent likes the new one.
 

ChibiUsagi

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I would also ask her if she has any general ideas about the direction to take you/your career in. Most of the time, this shouldn't be too big an issue, because the agent will likely say, "Keep doing more of the stuff you're doing now."

But if what you just did was an experimental YA fantasy, and you're usually a lot happier with adult romance, or you're normally a horror/dark fantasy writer, but your "test" as a science fiction novelist kind'a worked, but horror really is your wheelhouse, then there might be some problems. It might also be an issue if you ARE planning to do different things in the future, like eventually trying your hand at Middle Grade, even though normally you do adult/YA. If your agent doesn't represent MG, you'll have to go looking for someone else to rep it, and squeeze that time in to write it while you're doing your "normal" stuff for your agent.

But like I said, most writers won't have to worry about that. I actually do have a couple of MG novels sitting around, even though I normally do adult, so... yeah, I can't do much with 'em with my current agent.

Hiya! We discussed this before. Everything I can think of writing right now, she represents--and even if I branched out she said she could try to hook me up with another agent at the agency, though I see it as being unlikely.

This came up in this thread a few times, but this was broadly the advice I got from my agent too. She strongly advised that the best place to target the manuscript was large independent publishers. She said the major houses would be less interested in developing writing over time or helping with marketing. It's worth considering, though of course everyone's experience will be different!



Welcome! I just replied to your other thread. Nice to have you here!

When I met with my agent, the only really important thing was to find out if we clicked! It was also a good idea to discuss projects down the road. What other ideas you've been mulling over, and whether the agent likes any of those.

Thank you for the warm welcome! We've had a lovely email correspondence and she has a fantastic reputation as being very kind. She's done several interviews about the importance of keeping a level of humanity in this industry. I admit to being a little bit in love with her.

She works for one of the Old Guard Agencies, so I'm a tad nervous about her bosses urging her to drop me if I don't become a big deal. But I'm not worried about her.

Hi! Welcome!

I'd first and foremost see if you get along. I'd also recommend getting a measure for how she reacts to your future ideas for books, and what kind of direction she would see your career going if your MS on sub gets picked up. Ideally, she should want to stick with you for beyond one MS. Also, you could ask her what the plan is if your MS on sub doesn't work out for the places it's with. Does she plan to send to more editors? Or target smaller presses? But really, the most important thing is to come away feeling like you're on the same page.

She said we were going Big 5 and she'd be pretty floored if, with my book, bio and boss (lulz) I didn't get a bite at least somewhere.

But knock on wood because that's what everyone said about me getting an agent...and that took two bloody years. Granted, I wasn't really trying every second of that two years, but still.

Raggy--I took a peek at your wordpress. Oh la la. I wish I could draw.

How was your experience with Macmillan? ;)
 

Jeneral

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Lee, I'm sorry the first one doesn't seem to be hooking anyone, but otherwise that's a pretty positive outcome. Honestly, that's about exactly how it went with my first MS... lots of praise for the writing but no offers, one vague "if she wants to revise I have some ideas", and a few non-responders. So good luck with the new shiny... my agent did say that editors aren't going to say "I'd like to see more work from this person" lightly... if they say it they really mean it. I had to ask that to make sure they weren't just being polite.

I started re-reading my WIP in anticipation of getting notes in hopefully the next week or two. Ooooh boy is there a lot of info-dumping in those first couple chapters! But at least that's an easy fix now that I've noted it.
 

hester

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lee, really happy your conversation with your agent went so well!!!! Even if this one doesn't sell (and you never know--this business is slooooooooow) it sounds like she's very much in your corner for future books!!

And :welcome:ChibiUsagi!!!! Best of luck on your agent meeting (and subs!!!!)