The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Atlantic12

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Regarding impostor syndrome, I was interested to read that John Green and Neil Gaiman felt the same sorts of things. I absolutely have times I think my books have been nothing but a disappointment and I don't deserve to be where I am whatsoever. Generally I try to welcome that feeling because it pushes me to try and do something better and prove myself, but it's also disheartening because I know the cycle will never end no matter what I accomplish. I think everybody feels that way to some extent.

Yes, I think it's good to know we're not alone feeling that way, and even really famous writers/actors etc feel the same way sometimes. And I agree with Shoeless and Jean --- I feel best when I'm working on the writing itself. I don't worry about what people will think about it. But there's that moment of vulnerability when the writing has to be shown to other people, and that takes some getting used to. It's a little like pushing a baby bird out of the nest, hoping it'll fly.
 

MartinaMay

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I stepped away for a few days and a lot happened!

Congratulations, Shouldbe!

Chibi! *hugs* I can understand a boss being upset at the thought of losing you, but firing you? Grr. I hope you find a position with an Agency soon.

Nothing much new on my end. Round 2 of my YA mystery went out Thursday, and I just finished another revision in my never-ending R&R for my romantic suspense. Another "it's not quite where I want it; can you do x and x and send it again?"

As for self-pubbing, I think it depends on what you hope to publish. Some genres/books do better self-pubbed, others traditionally pubbed. I hope to be hybrid someday, traditionally pubbed but self-pubbing books between traditional releases. There are pros and cons to both.
 

triceretops

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Latest rejection: "I don't think I'm ready for a female Iron Man." Uhg. Hard darts on me....but! It's a military espionage thriller featuring a combat exoskeleton. I put a paraplegic girl in it and had her battle terrorists--tastefully and logically, I might ad. I'm a dude and I find that a wee bit sexist.

OTH, new pre-release and full sale of Blackmailed Bride, my erotic romance just popped. So I'm busy figuring how to use links again to do that evil promo push.

Harlequin, I believe you about the cost. I was never going to consider it because I've always needed an editor, and that really is a major expense for an intense line-by-line. But two friends insisted I try it out and offered free services. I couldn't resist that and did do it--or let them do it. It turned out great. But I had to become a marketing whiz to get any attention at all.
 

cool pop

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Self pub was actually my first choice, but the cost made it impossible. (Self pubbers never believe me when I say this, but I really don't have the outlay to attempt it).

Most authors do not spend tons of money to self-publish. The most the average probably pays is a few hundred dollars and some spend nothing because they barter services or work within the community. That's what is so remarkable about the SP community, there is always someone to help an author. Most people don't have a lot of money but they manage to put out good books with quality. It can be done. People outside the SP community don't realize all the many options a writer has in self-publishing to be able to release no matter their financial situation. There are people who will help and do. Many times it's about being creative and getting things done even if you can't afford it. It's a huge misconception that self-publishing has to cost tons of money. Maybe in the old days when you had to print your own books, not now. At first I thought this too until I researched and got in with the community and saw that it's definitely not true that you gotta have tons of money.

As for editing, you can find a lot of good editors that don't cost an arm and a leg. It's about making contacts too. Kboards for example has a bunch of good editors who advertise there with reasonable prices and most of them came from the trade world. If you're serious about self-publishing you have to go to those communities and become familiar with the self-publishing part of the industry. If you only go on sites or forums geared toward trade publishing then no, you won't know what's really going on the other side of the fence.

The self-publishing communities are the key. Check out the self-publishing groups on Facebook or forums that deal specifically with self-published authors and their needs. That's where you will find a treasure trove of information. But, you will have misconceptions if you're getting info or answers from the wrong places. You have a lot of people who never self-published in their lives who spread misinformation about it and don't know what the heck they are talking about. You gotta go to the horses' mouths.
 
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ChibiUsagi

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I don’t necessarily think one needs to personally self pub to be able to draw conclusions based on statistics and fact.

Not trying to start anything but there are viable reasons not to go down that road. And vice versa, depending on what your priority is.

Raggy Cat is the most amazing human ever, by the way. Just sharing that with the group.
 
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Treehouseman

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Most authors do not spend tons of money to self-publish. The most the average probably pays is a few hundred dollars and some spend nothing because they barter services or work within the community. That's what is so remarkable about the SP community, there is always someone to help an author.

(snip)

f you only go on sites or forums geared toward trade publishing then no, you won't know what's really going on the other side of the fence.

.

At the risk of this spiralling off topic (oh no!) I did try my hand at self publishing back in 2015 while waiting on three-agents-ago to have ghosted me long enough so I could dump her. Like all things, you can do SP for NOTHING, however anyone who has been successful has put their money where their mouth was and yes, getting a successful product set and marketed for under 4-figures was really pushing the boundaries.

The biggest forum was Kindle Boards/Writer's Cafe which I participated religiously, as it was better than the regular Amazon official one - Hugh Howey and other Kindle million-sellers were regulars - as well as the SP forum here on AW. Most of the others tend to be a bit dilettantish. It was interesting that from the dizzy heights of 2012 when the trade/trad hate was strong on SP forums, now the posts are mostly about staying ahead of the algorithms and the cheaters and perhaps trying to write 5000 words a day.

The blunt reality was that unless you could do covers and typesetting yourself, the venture really bulked up in cost. Also editing. Whenever there were successful SP'ers, there were also nods to editors and cover designers, and vary rarely were any of them charging less than a few hundred for their services. (There are swathes of editors offering low cost services on Kboards, and one rather gets what one pays) Added to that, advertisements, Fivver, Book Bub, Book Baby, Books Butterfly and other "visibility" outlets all charge a premium... and many of the high end promotional services will not take your book unless you have employed a professionally designed cover.

I did a series by myself with a $0 outlay just for the hell of it, but I could see how spending $1000 would have helped it out of the doldrums that it landed in! There are people sharing book services, but they tend to get very cliquey and the site often exploded into major flame wars.

So anyway, my $1.50 of commentary!
 

Harlequin

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I did look into it, and very extensively. I'm still a member of those communities.

If I can be honest, a few hundred initial outlay is still too much for me to afford. Seriously, we don't have any savings at all, not even that much >.>

In comparison, querying is free ;-) I woudln't be able to query if you still had to post manuscripts overseas; thank christ for email and query manager.

There are cheaper options for everything in indie, but covers are difficult to skimp on. Being genre consistent is CRUCIAL for self pub covers; I would need illustrated covers for my tetralogy, which cost more that photo manip, or else abstract covers with decent design (ie a graphic designer). A good cover is basically the difference between sales and not, in most cases.

Editing for four books, even on the cheap side, would add up quickly (and they'd have to be done close together for rapid release).

The real kiss of death is not writing to market. Over and over, this was what was stressed to me by successful indie pubbers. Know your market, target it, etc. My experience so far is that literary fantasy is basically not a thing in indie publishing, and I would struggle to get sales.

I also read an article from ada palmer where she considered many different options for publishing, including self. Eventually, she realised that for her book (which was very unusual at the time) she would need a big publishing house who had better reach, and could compensate for the nicheness of her book.

Anyways, I may still self pub in future, but only when I can afford to spend even the minimum couple hundred per book it requires. Ideally, I'd prefer to wait and save up for covers I love (because hey, what's the point of self pub if you can't get a final book you're happy with?) :) And maybe if I have some trade published stuff out there, it'll give the self pub stuff a boost. Maybe.
 
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skydragon

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Yes, self-publishing can certainly get expensive. I've never done it myself, but I work as a copy editor and proofreader for publishing houses and I have occasionally taken on books from authors who intend to self-publish. You definitely cannot skimp on the cost if you want to be successful. I'm probably biased, but things like quality editing are massively important. Anyone can hang up their shingles as an editor, so there are tons of "cheap" options out there, but most solidly trained and experienced professionals (i.e. those that have completed editorial training/have relevant publishing experience like myself) charge a rate that can quickly rack up if you have a lengthy novel (many editors charge per word or per 1k). Readers and reviewers are quick to notice if grammar is poor and if there are tons of typos, and they aren't very forgiving. Plus, it just looks unprofessional on the part of the author – like they couldn't be bothered to put the work in to put out a quality product for their customers.

This is why I prefer traditional publishing. Of course it's harder to break in, but you end up with a high-quality product, you don't have to pay for editing, proofreading, typesetting and cover design yourself, and you have a team of people in your corner without putting in as much money. Plus your book ends up in bookshops and therefore you have a higher likelihood of selling a decent amount of books rather than just to a couple of family members and friends.
 

Jeneral

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I have friends who self-publish and self-publish well. They regularly hire editors and cover designers, and, like Harlequin, even a few hundred dollars is a lot for me right now. But I believe that expense is necessary to put out a quality product. The thing that's kept me from self-publishing, besides the initial expense, has been the feeling of being a very small fish in a vast ocean. I have a decent amount of Twitter followers, but that's not gonna translate to sales. I can personally see doing it down the road, once I've put these trade pub books out and (hopefully) gained a little bit of a readership. Then I may self-pub the books that the bigger houses say they can't fit on their list. I consider myself lucky that I have so many good author friends who self-pub, that I can go to for advice when it's that time.

For now though, I finished my edits--huzzah! Sent it back to my editor a week early, and now I'm giving myself until NaNoWriMo to clean the house and not write. Watch some movies, knit, refill the well.

Happy Monday (ugh) everyone! Hope this is a good week filled with good news for us all.
 

skydragon

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I find that idea appealing too, Jeneral. Beth Revis was traditionally published but she's self-pubbed a few titles recently, mostly non-fiction about writing, since she already has an audience. Congrats on finishing your edits!
 

RaggyCat

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My impression with self-pub is that it's something that works well within certain markets, which Harlequin touches on. I know of a couple of crime writers, for example, who've done exceptionally well out of SP, which I get as crime is a popular genre which people (me included) tend to mass consume. No idea of their financial outlay, but the covers looked professional and I don't remember feeling they were poorly edited, so I assume money had been spent. My dad actually SPed one of his books a few years ago, but did very little marketing or promotion, so although he has sold some copies, it hasn't been widely purchased (it helped that my mum is a designed, and made a good looking cover, but didn't help that his book doesn't neatly fit into a category).

One of the problems with SP, sadly, is that some horrific novels as well as good ones have been SPed, and that can make buyers wary.

I don’t necessarily think one needs to personally self pub to be able to draw conclusions based on statistics and fact.

Not trying to start anything but there are viable reasons not to go down that road. And vice versa, depending on what your priority is.

Raggy Cat is the most amazing human ever, by the way. Just sharing that with the group.

It was my pleasure. :)
 

polishmuse

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(pops back from real world into AW) Hello all!
I've had a whirlwind few weeks of random stuff, but nothing generally novel related. Got to do a live story telling event, got more detes about big-ish deal nonfic thing that is definitely happening now but can't blab about yet, and have gotten a few ideas for stories and essays. The book I was working on, I realized, would be a perfect sequel to the book that went on sub and never sold last year. Whomp whomp. I'm not sure it that's enough to cool my interest in it, but it might be. I'm about 20k into the project so far, so we'll see.
Hugs to those in need of hugs. Watching out for ShouldBe's news like crazy, and knowing that someone on here contacted Janet and I appreciated her response :http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2018/10/sweating-out-on-sub-process.html :)
 

Harlequin

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Omg thanks for that link

Hrm, I wonder if this is for someone who is in my On Submission facebook group? I recognise a lot of these details, and everyone on there was discussing how slow stuff has been lately.
 
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ChibiUsagi

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Now I really want to know who that was.

Also, it appears I have an interview for our other literary fiction imprint. I knew being nice to that editor in the elevator would pay off.

Sigh. I’m getting a “close but no cigar” complex. And also I’m flat broke. I hope this works.
 

polishmuse

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Ugh, Chibi. I'm sorry for the job sitch. That was a terrible thing to have happen. Hopefully you land somewhere great soon.
 

Kensi99

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The real kiss of death is not writing to market. Over and over, this was what was stressed to me by successful indie pubbers. Know your market, target it, etc. My experience so far is that literary fantasy is basically not a thing in indie publishing, and I would struggle to get sales.

I also read an article from ada palmer where she considered many different options for publishing, including self. Eventually, she realised that for her book (which was very unusual at the time) she would need a big publishing house who had better reach, and could compensate for the nicheness of her book.

Maybe.

This is one of the major things worrying me about self pub. I'm not quite THIS and I'm not quite THAT.

But that's what has messed me up with agents too, so I guess I have nothing to lose by self pubbing. The other thing I'm considering is trying to get a deal for my WIP and then untrunking the genre masher.
 

Harlequin

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that's pretty much what I'm doing, or trying to do.

received wisdom says once you have 3-5 trade published books under your belt you can branch out (so I am told, anyway). Ofc, by the time I have that many books trade published, I'll be retired and/or we'll all have died of climate change lol
 

januarycomet

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This is one of the major things worrying me about self pub. I'm not quite THIS and I'm not quite THAT.

But that's what has messed me up with agents too, so I guess I have nothing to lose by self pubbing. The other thing I'm considering is trying to get a deal for my WIP and then untrunking the genre masher.

Just keep in mind that you do have something to lose by self-pubbing. You lose your debut. Which, in some genres and age groups in trade publishing, is actually a pretty big deal. Once you self-pub, that's it, you aren't a debut anymore. Unless you self-pub under a pseudonym. So if you self-pub and it goes nowhere, that's attached to the name you pubbed under forever. And you can get out from under that, but why make it even harder on yourself?

That's one of the reasons people shouldn't just self-pub for the hell of it. Make a decision about your career, you know? Don't just self-pub because you're impatient.

That's my take on it, anyway! Obviously YMMV.
 

RaggyCat

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Polish, it sounds like you have some promising things brewing. Could the new idea work equally well as a standalone rather than a follow up? My new idea was originally going to be a follow up (of sorts, reusing a few characters) to the MS I've just finished, but that ended up holding me back, so now it's just a standalone. So in a sense I've gone an opposite way to you.

Chibi, good luck with the interview! They would be silly to appoint an external when you're available.

Kensi, I think as you point out the "not quite this and not quite that" applies equally to trad publishing. I'm convinced that being easily able to categorise a book (even if agents/publishers say they wants genre bending) makes for a much easier sell.
 

ChibiUsagi

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Just keep in mind that you do have something to lose by self-pubbing. You lose your debut. Which, in some genres and age groups in trade publishing, is actually a pretty big deal. Once you self-pub, that's it, you aren't a debut anymore. Unless you self-pub under a pseudonym. So if you self-pub and it goes nowhere, that's attached to the name you pubbed under forever. And you can get out from under that, but why make it even harder on yourself?

That's one of the reasons people shouldn't just self-pub for the hell of it. Make a decision about your career, you know? Don't just self-pub because you're impatient.

That's my take on it, anyway! Obviously YMMV.

Thank you for the well wishses guys :) Still waiting on details.

I 100% agree with this and this is my main issue with a lot of people who turn to self pub. They don’t think it through, they just do it because they’re fed up.

The reality is many agents won’t touch a self published writer unless they have sold very well. It’s like welding a door shut. And I have seen a lot of regret from prospective authors who want to know why trade publishing views them as defectors from the island.

It’s never even been an option for me as I write literary so I haven’t had to deal with the temptation. As for me, there’s only one bar in town.
 

Kensi99

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I've already debuted under my own name so there's no 'debut' left for me haha.

I was seriously thinking of pen name though and have been under Twitter under it for awhile, gathering followers and interacting.
 

Atlantic12

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100% agree with January and Chibi about the value of your debut. I can't stress this enough. In the past few weeks as my book has sold, I've been learning just how crucial it is that I'm a relatively blank slate in fiction. The publishers can launch me as a new author, "new" being an attractive angle to anything in marketing, right? We equate new with good, better, fresh, young, exciting. Publishers really do tap into that.

Definitely consider a pen name if you've already debuted as a self pubber and need a new start, or even if you had a success a long time ago in another genre. You really can rebuild your career under a pen name. My agent mentioned one of her other clients who needed this. A complete makeover, a radical genre change, and this author became one of the best in her genre in the world. And it was her second career in fiction, so to speak. It really is possible. Your agent should help with this if you need it.

This is one of the major things worrying me about self pub. I'm not quite THIS and I'm not quite THAT.

I agree, I think this is a much bigger issue in self publishing than in trade. At the moment, I think self publishing is great for very clear genre books. And also for extreme niche books that have a clear audience, even if small.

Trade publishing has the clout to push all kinds of stories, and genre mixtures are a big part of that. It's tricky to do, but these are sometimes what end up being breakout novels. My first novel is a genre mash thing. At first my agent didn't know where it might be categorized. The solution wasn't to revise it into one genre. I revised it so that each side of the book was so strong, publishers can place the book in several categories. That appears to have paid off, since the book has got a lot of attention. Each market has a choice if they want to place the book in crime fiction, or women's fiction, or historical fiction, or just plain general fiction. If the book works in each category, it's bending genres, but in a way that appeals broadly to different audiences. That's a good thing.
 

skydragon

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Some rejections just rolled in from my agent :cry:Lots of positives but always followed by either: they didn't connect to the MC or the concept is too hard of a sell for the market.

I've had a horrible few days with other stuff, so I really just want to go into hibernation until 2019...