The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Sparverius said:

Thanks! I'm stoked, but also have the "oh no only I can f*ck this up now" clarity.

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Yo, if the R&R followed acquisitions, then you should be as happy as a tornado in a trailer park. That's a good position to be in...

...she said.

Seriously, I think I've only had one R&R from editor during my life. It was a real positive experience. I couldn't begin to imagine what kind of a heartbreaker it would be to have one turned down. I shiver at the thought and have great empathy for anyone who has gone through that. You guys got guts.

"as happy as a tornado in a trailer park" hehehe

I'm feeling really good about it. Already have a new outline and am brainstorming the trickier changes. I'm also glad I got all the notes before the New Year, so I can work through the holiday break!

Does anyone here write for the younger audiences? I just read a fascinating article in Publishers Weekly:

RIGHT HERE

That says there's now a gap in YA, but it's at the OTHER end of the spectrum with the Tweens. It's really interesting, because it says that YA has gradually become co-opted by adult readers that don't want to read adult fiction, but want adult content in YA, and so the older end of the market has been skewing more and more towards adult readers, and not actual teens anymore. Meanwhile, there's a HUGE gap in the YA for younger readers in their early teens who may not be interested in the romantic elements that seem to be a standard part of older YA, for adult readers. The article says it's getting harder and harder to find YA that actual, younger YA readers graduating from MG may find suitable.

It's interesting to me because my wife writes and illustrate picture books for the MG demographic, but she's been wanting us to partner up again for a graphic novel. If it's really true that there's a big dearth in the Tween demographic, and publishers are having a tough time finding content for that, I think I may have just found my next project.

Shoeless said:

Does anyone here write for the younger audiences? I just read a fascinating article in Publishers Weekly:

RIGHT HERE

That says there's now a gap in YA, but it's at the OTHER end of the spectrum with the Tweens. It's really interesting, because it says that YA has gradually become co-opted by adult readers that don't want to read adult fiction, but want adult content in YA, and so the older end of the market has been skewing more and more towards adult readers, and not actual teens anymore. Meanwhile, there's a HUGE gap in the YA for younger readers in their early teens who may not be interested in the romantic elements that seem to be a standard part of older YA, for adult readers. The article says it's getting harder and harder to find YA that actual, younger YA readers graduating from MG may find suitable.

It's interesting to me because my wife writes and illustrate picture books for the MG demographic, but she's been wanting us to partner up again for a graphic novel. If it's really true that there's a big dearth in the Tween demographic, and publishers are having a tough time finding content for that, I think I may have just found my next project.

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I did see this, Shoeless, and it's really interesting, isn't it? I've thought myself many times that a lot of older YA is practically Adult, and I've read quite a few YA books that I get the distinct feeling would be enjoyed by adults, but not by actual teenagers, and has really been written with adult readers in mind. One title that springs to mind is Only in the Movies by Holly Bourne. It's definitely older YA - there's a lot of sexual detail, for example - and part of the plot looks at how movie cliches don't happen in real life. This latter point is something that struck me at the time of reading as an odd thing to focus on for a book for teenagers, as, by their younger years, most teens are less aware of cliches, simply because they haven't encountered them yet. The tone, too, felt very knowing.

I suspect a lot of would-be-authors who have jumped on the YA bandwagon because it "seems popular" may have been writing for this older bracket.

The article makes me thoughtful too because, really, I think my three published books *are* for that younger YA age group - they're crime thrillers, but not graphic, and while there is a little romance, you could in the case of two of the books take it out and the plot would be unaffected. The stuff I've written since has been pushing into that older YA bracket. Maybe that's a mistake? Lots to think about - if book on sub fails part of me thinks maybe seeing what I can do with younger YA might be a smart move, as I know I can do it (perhaps better than what I have been doing, who knows).

I read that article, Shoeless. I was going to bring it up here, too, and then forgot. It's an interesting discussion to be having, but it sent me into a bit of a tailspin.

I wrote my first novel with the precise aim to target that age group (upper MG/younger YA). I soon learned that was a terrible move for an unknown writer because agents would say there's no way to market it/doesn't fit in bookstores easily. Even back in 2012 I felt the gap (having multiple kids of my own gives me fair insight into what's being offered at different points on the developmental spectrum). Reading that article immediately tempted me to revive that novel, which I've never given to my agent to read or even told her very much about and I've always been curious what she'd think. I mean, I still love it, especially certain scenes. I poured years of hard work into it. I did so much learning with that thing.

BUT - and it's a big but, haha. I really had to ask myself if I want to write for that age group going forward. Even just to revise that book would involve many hours to bring it up to my standards now, not even counting what my agent would suggest, and then if it DID get picked up for publication... all the hours I would spend on it... the promotions... the high chance my publisher would expect more in the same vein. I originally planned the story with the aim of writing it as a series of five books (haha, doesn't ever new writer do this?), but it can also stand alone.

So I don't know. I can't say it isn't tempting. Most likely it would get rejected, but it would be super cool to hear "It's just what we're looking for!" from an industry professional for once in my life.

I hear you, Ragged. I think the marketplace is more flexible than it was a few years ago BUT... I think you're right to be concerned that publishers might turn down a "tween" MS because it had no clear space on the shelves (as the article touches upon). It also strikes me that there may be a gulf between what agents say they want, and the gaps they see, and what the cold hard practicialities the editors engage with dictate. It's a little like how there's tons of talks about wanting diverse books but that not necessarily translating into books being published because of fears about sales and market demand (we talked about this some weeks ago when the conversation here sidetracked into diversity).

I think any such step is a risk to be discussed with an agent. And even then, no guarantees. As we all know, this business is immensely contrary.

I hear you too regarding wanting to hear "it's just what we're looking for". I'm starting to think the story of my time in publishing is being ahead of the market with everything I produce in a gratifying but useless kind of way.

RaggyCat, FYI I'm in the UK and still did the cover page thing, but that was mostly because much of the query advice online is US based, so I may have picked it up from there!

Shoeless, I didn't see that article so thanks for sharing. It doesn't surprise me. I know many agents and publishers in the UK actually distinguish between YA and teen, with teen being for a much younger audience, and MG/teen fiction is on the rise, with YA being a tougher and tougher sell. YA seems to becoming a genre in itself rather than an age category – there's such a wide scope in terms of darker/more sexual content and YA that is more toned down and "young". It's interesting how it's evolving.

That said, my YA book was on the younger end, with quite a young voice, and publishers still turned it down because the market is so tough.

Ugh, as somebody who got several rejections on a YA that felt "too young" for editors, I am frustrated. I feel like there may be gaps in the market and people wanting it, but it doesn't mean it's getting bought by publishers. It's the same with college-aged protagonists. Lots of people say they want it, but not much is getting published outside of NA/romance.

Atlantic12 said:

Nova Odyssey -- I can't help saying that your handle makes me think of the name of a Caribbean cruise ship. I was on a cruise last summer and our ship was called the Carnival Ecstasy.

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well, Atlantic12, between my name and yours, I think we have both sea and space travel covered, then!
Caribbean cruise ship isn't far off... snicker. It's also the name of a dominatrix, and I know this because I was leading people to a social media account not knowing she shared the same name... and well, folks just got quiet around me until I found out. but I digress.

I'm confused about the whole age genre thing... when I read some YA my eyes pop out because I can't believe how sexual it is... and I guess I'm just dated or lived in a box in that respect, but also see that it's what the article/you guys mention.

Well, the theory that there is less focus or a shortage on the younger YA category is pretty accurate. I can speak for myself, when I started writing YA about 11 years ago. I had a few books with age ranges between 15 and 17. I thought it was perfectly natural for these kids to experiment with sex, I mean, not the heavy blunt-force trauma coupling, but the hesitant, clumsy naked attempts where hands are used more than anything else. But I got the chew-out from agents and publishers about under-aged sex, including my current agent. A few of them didn't mind. The majority of them did, (in my case). So if I wanted a little action between my characters, I damn well had to get all of them 18 or over. No way could I even have a 18 girl with a 17 years old guy. If I wanted to keep those younger age ranges, it was suggested to me that some kissing and light, quick petting, and maybe some accidental nudity might okay. No coupling. Not even simulated.

I guess that stuck in my head all this time because even if I had teens of age, I didn't go with the full-on sex acts. I just let them explore a little more. In essence, I've kept my kids in the upper teens just so they could kiss, pet and ogle a little bit. Oh, not even any behind the door stuff either, 'cause it implies.

NA was not the answer for me either, because I'd heard many times that it was the NEW kid on the block, but I never saw a huge trend shift toward it. Agent and publishers gave us the big NA talk, but not the big bought. Personally, I never saw it take off. Hearsay and rumors does not a tsunami make. Not to say that some writers didn't break into it and launch their careers.

In reading that article, I'm just wondering if we try to plug that gap, will we be rewarded for it? Will there truly be some openings? Ya, know, sometimes I think pubbers and agents unintentionally blow smoke and use sleight of hand. They pass the hot news around. Then it dies down. Then you get reminded again.

I guess I'm stuck with the higher age range YA characters, who are a bunch of virgins. Oh, the shame of it. It's so embarrassing!

there is a sense that many of the older YA books are adults writing teen fantasy for adults, especially when all the buzz is directed at and channelled by, other adults. Melissa Caruso posted recently how her daughter (a teen) was really turned off a lot of recent YA releases, expressly for many of the reasons listed above--too much romance, too much of an adult focus, not enough adventure and fun and so forth.

I guess it's similar to a lot of manga/anime having a high school focus, but being written/produced for adults.

Harlequin said:

there is a sense that many of the older YA books are adults writing teen fantasy for adults, especially when all the buzz is directed at and channelled by, other adults.

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Well put, and FWIW I agree. That's probably one of the reasons I'd enjoy reading YA even if I wasn't writing it - I had a very uneventful time as a teen, which, though happy enough, makes me feel like I missed out on the "teen experience", so I get some of that when I read YA. As a reader, I do generally enjoy the older YA stuff that I think has distorted the category... though I never truly enjoy it when I feel the author is cynically and deliberately writing for adults. It works best when older YA is written for teens, but is totally accessible for adults, too.

Tri, also think you're right on the smoke blowing and sleight of hand... It wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of chat about this but effectively not much happens with it. As experiences such as Niiicola's and Skydragon's evidence, perhaps when push comes to shove publishers are wary about younger YA voiced books because of sales. As ever, the proof will be in the pudding over the next few years... Given that YA buyers are still overwhelmingly adult, I don't see the "older YA" disappearing any time soon.

That said, I do think, marketing categorywise, something between MG and YA would be great, as there is a huge gap of experiences between a 12 and a 18 year old, as the artlcle says. We know it won't happen, because shelf space is at a premium, but from a consumer POV it would be great. Thinking back to myself as a teen, I read voraciously, but wasn't emotionally especially mature, and I think I'd have been quite alienated and even upset by some of the YA floating round today.. not so much because of content, but because it would have made me feel like I was a non-typical and somehow defective teen because I wasn't interested in a lot of the "more mature" things the characters were doing.

I'm frustrated, too, for kids and for us.

I agree that this is simply more talk and won't likely change anything. I can't help but scratch my head at the sales teams at publishers. Other businesses identify untapped areas of the market and go after those. But as was discussed here, first with the diversity discussion and now with the YA gap, publishers seem to do the opposite.

My 11yo daughter has had difficulty finding books she likes. Lately she's enjoying The Fog Diver series, and I notice that the back cover of Book 2 lists a main character who is 13. I think that's the age of the main characters in my trunked "young YA" novel. I should let her read it and see how she reacts. Then again, in my estimation, the biggest change my MS needs is voice (I think it's too old), so that may throw off her opinion.

Intersting article, Shoeless. Thanks for sharing.

This has been bugging me for a while, too. I write mid- to older teens (16-18ish), but they're still very much kids. Romance or the potential for romance is there (ditto with sexual stuff, which is relatively mild whenI do include it), but it's not the main focus at all. By these new standards that skew YA to please adult readers reading about teens having adult experiences, my voice and my characters are most definitely "young." I wonder if that's one of the reasons why my stuff hasn't sold.

For better or worse, everything I write fits the “older YA” trend, because from the time I was 12 I was all about reading the sexy romance and the “dark” themes. In my teens I mainly read adult classics and SFF, with the occasional YA book when I wanted something that actually reflected my high school environment (which wasn’t often). If I were a teen now, I’d probably be reading an even mix of older YA and adult. So it’s hard for me to put myself in the mentality of a younger teen or tween (also, because my adolescence was not supervised or sheltered at all).

It’s worth noting that edgy, sexual YA books aren’t new, though—they kind of boomed in the ‘70s and vanished in the ‘90s. I remember my eyes bugging out as I read some of Norma Klein’s books. In Love Is One of the Choices, one teen watches porn on a first date; another has an affair with her teacher that is presented as an okay thing (they end up married). And don’t get me started on M.E. Kerr and Dinky Hocker Shoots Smack! (which I read when I had no idea what that meant).

The difference, I think, is that adults weren’t reading much YA in the ‘70s. The edginess of YA simply reflected the turbulence of the culture, same as adult fic did. And there was much book banning.

Weirdly, I think sometimes teenage readers who aren't into the "dark, edgy, more adult YA" can also, perversely, end up turning to Adult if they can't find books that satisfy them in the YA label. There are plenty of Adult books that don't have hugely "adult" themes. I started reading Agatha Christie as a teenager, and while there is plenty of darkness in her work, the subtler points went over my head and I just enjoyed them as exciting crime novels.

My knowledge of 70s YA is pretty much nil, but I'd like to know more. Is there anything you would recommend to get started, Fuchsia?

Really great discussion here. Again. I get more blog post ideas from this thread than any other.

Ragged, yes, I think it might be wishful thinking, possibly on the part of industry marketing which gabs it up loud enough to where agents and publishers hear it and pass it on. I was a late bloomer, introvert and nerd as a teen, so when it came time to write YA, I did not have anywhere near the accurate voice to craft it. I had to research, bug my great nieces and nephews, interrogate random teenagers and ask advice just so I could eventually write real YA material. A 60-something dude can't come right out of the gate and write this stuff, let alone MG. So my voice was pretty mature as it was. Heck, the teens writing in Wattpad today are really living these lives and recording events as it happens to them. Granted, the majority of their material is fanfic but their voices are original.

In retrospect, we all know that teens are so much more aware today than some of us older folks were when we were boppers. Let's be honest about this and admit that sexual experimentation, drugs, liquor and porn is not new to most of the younger teen sect. If they haven't done it, they sure know about, wot? My great niece is 14 and she tells me she "swings both ways." I cringe upon hearing that. Yet that is the truth with lots of these younger kids. So if the agents and publishers want the younger YA, they best think about the real lifestyles going on here. Is it any wonder why so many teens are reading adult books? Could that be closer to their real experience and knowledge base? Do they want us to go back to Walt Disney ultra conservatism? Hey, I agree with thresholds and standards, but is this type of material really going to sell and are they really going to buy it?

What distresses me are what I call the "ambulance chasers." These are publishers who have scouts looking for potential breakouts. That's fine, it's a business. I get that. The areas ripe for this are platforms like Booksie and Wattpad, book websites and blogs. Writers who have cultivated gigantic subscribers, views and friends in association with their books or chapters really stand out and catch that coveted word-of-mouth crowd. It isn't long before these writers are discovered. Unfortunately, I think it is the reader numbers and not the story that is the main attraction. Ya, know, the hell with the story, we can fix it. But just look at the built-in fan base already! Stop and think about these books that have gone this route. I don't even want to mention them. This practice is becoming habitual. I think this really hurts us writers. There is some resentment going on. But reality is reality. We forge on.

Hi guys.

I just wanted to say hello.

I hope everyone is doing well and has many book deals coming through.

Was thinking about you, Chibi. Glad to hear from you. How are you doing?

Atlantic12 said:

Was thinking about you, Chibi. Glad to hear from you. How are you doing?

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I’m not great to be honest.

I still don’t have a full time job again, I’m temping for a friend of mine (agent) who feels sorry for me. I should be hearing next week from an interview last week. I think it went well, but as the silver medal kid, I don’t dare hope.

I have like 50 dollars in my bank account due to getting pneumonia last month and having a bunch of doctor bills.

I’m trying to write this second, more marketable novel for dream crusher editor but my heart isn’t in it. I am still waiting to hear from a few people on my current book, but this last rejection really decimated all my confidence so I don’t have high hopes. Expecting more “this is amazing, no”.

On the bright side, I’m turning 24, which is old maid territory in my culture and I think I might be falling in love for the first time with a dental student I met at Starbucks.

I don’t know shit about love, so we’ll see.

ChibiUsagi said:

I’m not great to be honest.

I still don’t have a full time job again, I’m temping for a friend of mine (agent) who feels sorry for me. I should be hearing next week from an interview last week. I think it went well, but as the silver medal kid, I don’t dare hope.

I have like 50 dollars in my bank account due to getting pneumonia last month and having a bunch of doctor bills.

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Hey, welcome back.

As a Canadian, every time I hear stories like this, it just blows my mind how devastating it can be to get sick in the USA.

Sorry to hear about the way life is going at the moment, but on the other hand, it's life, and it's giving you some things, like love, maybe. These things can enrich you. And your writing, of course...

ChibiUsagi said:

I’m not great to be honest.

I still don’t have a full time job again, I’m temping for a friend of mine (agent) who feels sorry for me. I should be hearing next week from an interview last week. I think it went well, but as the silver medal kid, I don’t dare hope.

I have like 50 dollars in my bank account due to getting pneumonia last month and having a bunch of doctor bills.

I’m trying to write this second, more marketable novel for dream crusher editor but my heart isn’t in it. I am still waiting to hear from a few people on my current book, but this last rejection really decimated all my confidence so I don’t have high hopes. Expecting more “this is amazing, no”.

On the bright side, I’m turning 24, which is old maid territory in my culture and I think I might be falling in love for the first time with a dental student I met at Starbucks.

I don’t know shit about love, so we’ll see.

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Hey, Chibi, welcome back. I'm glad to see you around - I've been thinking of you and wondering how you were. Sorry to hear that nothing is going better, and being sick on top of feeling low is something you didn't need. However, you've a possible silver lining with your guy, and that's a good thing to have going on at any time. My fingers are crossed for your remaining editors and the job outcome.

Don't rush new marketable book if you're not feeling it - the love might come in time. Also, I've always found when I've felt the worst and most disappointed writingwise, taking a break is actually the most helpful thing I can do. Although it's rarely the thing I WANT to do, if that makes any sense.

OM gosh. I really don't know what to think of this. I'm stunned, shocked and inspired all at the same time. I have to admit that I find Todd a bit insufferable. Yet this sure has something to do with our YA discussion. I'm trying to formulate the answer and remedy to the "gapitise" in YA. Is it possible that Todd has the answer to the future of YA or NA material?

The One Direction Fan-Fiction Novel That Became a Literary Sensation

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/crowdsourcing-the-novel/573907/

Shoeless said:

Does anyone here write for the younger audiences? I just read a fascinating article in Publishers Weekly:

RIGHT HERE

That says there's now a gap in YA, but it's at the OTHER end of the spectrum with the Tweens. It's really interesting, because it says that YA has gradually become co-opted by adult readers that don't want to read adult fiction, but want adult content in YA, and so the older end of the market has been skewing more and more towards adult readers, and not actual teens anymore. Meanwhile, there's a HUGE gap in the YA for younger readers in their early teens who may not be interested in the romantic elements that seem to be a standard part of older YA, for adult readers. The article says it's getting harder and harder to find YA that actual, younger YA readers graduating from MG may find suitable.

It's interesting to me because my wife writes and illustrate picture books for the MG demographic, but she's been wanting us to partner up again for a graphic novel. If it's really true that there's a big dearth in the Tween demographic, and publishers are having a tough time finding content for that, I think I may have just found my next project.

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I definitely get the impression that YA is becoming 'older' as an outsider (someone who neither reads nor writes it). When I was reading 'tween' stuff there was a lot of it around - I remember Darren Shan's Cirque du Freak series being one of my favourites - but now all the big hit YAs seem to feature older teens and have much darker themes. Interesting.

Niiicola said:

Ugh, as somebody who got several rejections on a YA that felt "too young" for editors, I am frustrated. I feel like there may be gaps in the market and people wanting it, but it doesn't mean it's getting bought by publishers. It's the same with college-aged protagonists. Lots of people say they want it, but not much is getting published outside of NA/romance.

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I feel you. All I hear is how romance readers are voracious and can't get enough and buy more than any other genre blah blah and yet editors aren't buying it. What gives?

ChibiUsagi said:

I’m not great to be honest.

I still don’t have a full time job again, I’m temping for a friend of mine (agent) who feels sorry for me. I should be hearing next week from an interview last week. I think it went well, but as the silver medal kid, I don’t dare hope.

I have like 50 dollars in my bank account due to getting pneumonia last month and having a bunch of doctor bills.

I’m trying to write this second, more marketable novel for dream crusher editor but my heart isn’t in it. I am still waiting to hear from a few people on my current book, but this last rejection really decimated all my confidence so I don’t have high hopes. Expecting more “this is amazing, no”.

On the bright side, I’m turning 24, which is old maid territory in my culture and I think I might be falling in love for the first time with a dental student I met at Starbucks.

I don’t know shit about love, so we’ll see.

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I know it sounds like empty words, but better times are coming and somewhere down the road you'll look back on this as a bad memory.

---

My novella was published at the beginning of the month. I'm not sure how well it's selling (not very well, I think) but I've had lots of beautiful reviews which is very heartening. I went through a bad patch and haven't been writing for about six months, so this is giving me the push to get back in the saddle.

Earthling, very happy to hear about your novella! Congratulations. May more lovely reviews roll in...

triceretops said:

OM gosh. I really don't know what to think of this. I'm stunned, shocked and inspired all at the same time. I have to admit that I find Todd a bit insufferable. Yet this sure has something to do with our YA discussion. I'm trying to formulate the answer and remedy to the "gapitise" in YA. Is it possible that Todd has the answer to the future of YA or NA material?

The One Direction Fan-Fiction Novel That Became a Literary Sensation

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/crowdsourcing-the-novel/573907/

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Thanks for this article, Tri - I think I had heard of Anna Todd before, but I didn't know any details. Having not read any of her work, I can't comment on the quality of her writing, but if she really didn't edit anything before she posted chapters up, the writing cannot have been that great (when I think of all the hours I know everyone here puts into editing and crafting... well). But people still loved what she posted, which proves something I think is true: many people care less about decent writing than most of us (who are probably more critical readers) care to think. As a teen, I read fanfiction occassionally, and I don't remember turning away from any because it was trashy. I was just hooked on my fandoms and wanted more, in whatever form it took. I even wrote some very silly Tamora Pierce fanfic (which my friend and I had a giggle over doing - we knew the writing wasn't great, we were just being funny and subversive - but it got a very surprising number of positive comments.

The article does make me feel a little sick, knowing how hard many writers I know have been striving for even a small break. But that's the market, and I think one has to accept that. What makes me more sick is the celebrity-authors dominance in the children's market, but that's something else.

To go back to your post above this one, which I somehow missed - I think publishers do in many of the books they publish depict a skewed projection of teen life. I think they seek to do well, and release books that cover a range of teen experiences, but in reality, I'm not convinced they do. Editors are (inevitably) going to have their own biases that come into play when selecting which books to take on.