The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

tri - quite honestly, that article made me physically sick to my stomach as I read it. It also made me want to scream and destroy things.

I, like all of my lovely, talented, hard-working writer buds, have been struggling for a long time, to just get a tiny little break. Some have just started to get publishing deals after years of working and trying; some, myself included, are still stuck in this circle of hell (possibly forever). These are people who work at their craft, who revise and polish and fix, rinse, repeat....

And this Todd person gets six-figure deals and a Netflix movie deal when she started writing on a whim?

I'm all for respecting my fellow writers and I'm in no way disputing the fact that everyone's journey is different. But writing was never a dream or a craft or a career choice for this woman. It was a fluke. She started it because she was bored and her usual supply of fanfiction had dried out. A little bit like the FSoG person, sounds like. Ugh.

In the meantime, here we are. Working so hard, often for years... Begging for scraps of validation from agents or editors... And for what?

I'm sorry if any of this seems harsh. I just can't with stories like this one.

For me, the only valuable takeaway from that article is something that a group of writer friends and I have been chatting about for a while now: the publishing industry model, unchanged since the dawn of time and featuring its series of rules and gatekeepers, is seriously problematic.

Now excuse me while I go throw up.

Once I'm done with that, I guess I'll start to peruse Wattpad more seriously than before.

I think maybe it just goes in the same category as people who become millionaires because they trip over a diamond cache in their basement or what have you >.> It happens. She effectively won the publishing lottery.

I agree that it's frustrating, but I also think that some people instinctively know how to be captivating in certain media, in a way that makes no sense to people who are trying to approach the work in the traditional way. I'm never going to read 50SoG, but I recognize that it captivated millions of people, and to do that requires something . . . I don't know, special is the best word I can think of . . . even if it's not what we might consider good "craft." The same can be said for many people in the music industry. Look at the Kardashians, look at that Bhad Bhabie "rapper" (but don't, seriously). It's art, it's subjective, and its circulation is dependent on an industry where others are making money off it. For reasons of sanity, I have to just shake my head at certain things and understand that they are not for me, but they might be for lots of other people.

I feel you, moonchild. Comparison is the thief of joy and all that, but it's so hard when someone achieves your dream and it means zilch to them (well, I guess the money means a lot to Todd, but not becoming a published author).

I do think quality matters. There's definitely a market for writing that is fun, escapist, wish fulfilling, but not written particularly well. There's also a market for what we're all trying to do.

I mean getting upset by this article is like getting upset when you play the lottery every week for 20 years and someone wins who plays it for the first time, buying one ticket. Oh it's not fair, he/she only bought one ticket. Yes...but it's the freaking lottery...it's not meant to be fair.

You really can't compare your situation to this, because this type of thing is not happening every day to anyone who sits down and tries to catch lightning in a bottle. Dumb luck is a HUGE part of anyone's success in almost any industry. Acting, writing, music, art. For every Todd there are millions of people on the other end of the luck spectrum.

Yes your writing matters. Yes it has value. No it probably won't result in a Todd-like situation. No that shouldn't discourage you.

Earthling said:

it's so hard when someone achieves your dream and it means zilch to them (well, I guess the money means a lot to Todd, but not becoming a published author).

Click to expand...

EXACTLY.

Thank you, Earthling, for distilling the root of my nausea so perfectly.

spikeman - glad you don't find it upsetting. You're a better, wiser person than I am, clearly.

And no, I don't want a Todd-like situation. I don't want millions upon millions and fame and fortune and a Netfilx original series. I want a chance. After years or work and study and more work and keeping on keeping on, I'd like to at least have something to show for it--maybe even be able to pay a bill or two and say, "hey, MY novel paid for that!" I never thought that would be too much to ask. Clearly it is.

It would appear that the only writing that's ever going to pay for anything in my life is the dreck I produce as part of my dayjob. Yay me.

That article only reaffirms the fact that this industry is nothing but a crapshoot. It maybe should make me feel better. Somehow it makes me feel worse. Glad it's only me. I wouldn't wish what I'm feeling on any fellow writers.

I wonder if I've finally hit my limit. I wonder if I'm DONE at last.

Moonchild, you're not done. No way. Your writing matters--because it is a blessed craft to you. Raggy, sorry about the sickness, and anybody else. I did some inner puking myself, but didn't want to admit it. And I'm sorry I posted that stupid ass thing. I get outraged on a regular basis, covering this industry on my site, Guerrilla Warfare for Writers (special weapons and tactics). I alert writers to every dirty or unfair thing that happens in this profession. But I have to solve problems and offer counter-attacks (Otherwise I'm a downer Danny). Harlan Ellison never had such a temper as me, to protect the writer and give them the armor to brave it all.

This type of ambulance chasing these fluke writers is going to burn out. The literary industry can only absorb so much crap writing, and millions upon millions of little pamphlets sold on Amazon as books are going to be flagged and re-categorized. Agent and publisher power is going to be re-instated and morally healed. There is just too much outrage. Bad writing will not be tolerated, regardless of what type of writing it is. Your dreams, faith and hard work will be rewarded--the message that we've had all our lives as writers--the good will win.

Major book reviewers and readers are trying to think of a fair system to differentiate good Indie books from first-draft Indie slush. No solutions yet, but they are homing in on several ideas.

If publishers and agents are so damned intent on publishing REAL young adult voices (Their excuse), then why don't they higher teenagers as first readers for that genre? Wouldn't they rightfully, instinctively know what's hot and what's not? We Still have adult opinions on YA reality.

There is going to be a resurrection of paper and hardbacks. We, the real writers, will keep and improve our beloved manufacturing modes. E-books or e-publishing will not kill us off. We are in a position to dictate what happens with us, we are the power source. It isn't true that the reader defines the world of literature. Without us, they have nothing.

Here's the irony of it: Todd seemed to view the major movie and publishing industries as superficial sluts who really didn't understand the priorities of young adults. Anybody catch that? Even she knew the problems of the big league hitters.

You guys write. That's what you do best. I write and fight. But if you want to see a real warrior at work, check out the work of Victoria Straus and her Bewares archives. That sweet lady is eating Tums by the caseloads, ha!

Moonchild said:

That article only reaffirms the fact that this industry is nothing but a crapshoot. It maybe should make me feel better. Somehow it makes me feel worse. Glad it's only me. I wouldn't wish what I'm feeling on any fellow writers.

I wonder if I've finally hit my limit. I wonder if I'm DONE at last.

Click to expand...

Don't be done!!! Your writing is gorgeous and the world deserves to see it. I'm sorry it's been such a rough road for you lately. I've been in a similar place.

The publishing industry can be brutal, and even once you've sold a book there's no guarantee you won't end up treated very terribly. But we write because we care and we need to share our words and our message, and also because we are stubborn, stubborn bastards.

Moonchild said:

I wonder if I've finally hit my limit. I wonder if I'm DONE at last.

Click to expand...

aw, Moonchild (and others suffering on here too...) we go board-back. this is awful and hard, and I get those feelings too, especially when family reminds me how writing contributes zilch financially. and... there are no magic words except for me to and say if in "breaks" you feel the voice commanding a pen or keyboard, keep honoring it.

We kick ass. What other profession rejects you 99% in the lifetime of their career, and yet they keep on going? Music? Acting? Yep. Just proves you're not in a little writing community or org. You're in the entertainment industry.

Earthling - Great to see you! I've been wondering how you are. Congratulations on the publication of your novella. Where can I find out about it? I read romance so I'd probably enjoy it. And I took the last six months off my writing, too. I needed to work through some old shit.


I haven't read that much of the Todd article but I've seen enough like it. Sure they have made me ill, but they also make me realize other people get in their own way much less than I get in my own way. They have an interest in something, they don't overthink it, and they act on it in the most direct way available. There's something admirable about that. I've thought about throwing my stuff at the world like she did, but I've also talked myself out of it - sometimes for valid reasons and sometimes because I fear it, sometimes because I'm lazy, largely because I want to take a solid stab at this other route more... but it sheds a light on perhaps my biggest problem: I overthink my writing. I am way too wrapped up in knots in my head about which way to go instead of just taking chances and exploring. It has taken me eight years and two novels and therapy to figure out what I should've known about myself and my writing all along. And despite all I've learned, I'm still not sure what I'll write next because what I love doesn't fit neatly into the market.

I'm reminded of an AWer who got fed up with trying to win the publishing crapshoot and finally just wrote a book fully for herself - wrote about a taboo subject because she felt like it, put out of her mind what others would think, and totally went guns blazing with her passion. She self-published it inexpensively, bought some well-placed promotional ads for under $100 IIRC, and it burned up the indie charts immediately. Not long after, she got picked up by an agent, who secured the same book a publishing deal (and she's had others since). I own that book and it is a beautifully written, entertaining story. It's the best intersection of writer talent and writer passion. That's what I want for all of us. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I haven't written with that much freedom and passion yet. After the holidays, I'm going to just start writing what I love and see where it takes me.

After following this conversation, I'm reminded of an interview with actress Glenn Close. She said the best advice she ever got as an actor was "Don't compare your career to anyone else's. Otherwise you'll jump out a window."

Yes, merlot, that has to be our mantra.

"I don't stop to think lovingly about all the fame and fortune I've achieved. I remember only the thrill and excitement of the journey I had getting there." I can't remember if it was Ann Rice or King who said that.

Rowling said something like, "I remember how vividly it came to me--like I was on a first date with someone I would eventually fall in love with."

GUYS, I HAVE NEWS. Not news I can share quite yet but, holy crap, good news!

RaggedEdge said:

Earthling - Great to see you! I've been wondering how you are. Congratulations on the publication of your novella. Where can I find out about it? I read romance so I'd probably enjoy it. And I took the last six months off my writing, too. I needed to work through some old shit.

Click to expand...

This is my novella. I'm glad it isn't just me that has long breaks! Are you planning to get back in the saddle soon?

Gah, I wants the new news! Glad it's good news though

AHHHHHH EARTHLING I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR YOUR NEWS!!

Moonchild - much love and many hugs to you. This business has a way of making you feel like absolute garbage. I've been there, and I'll bet a dollar I'll be there again. I think I've mentioned it here before, but when I feel this way I give myself permission to quit. "Screw it," I say, "it's not worth it." And I go off and read and play video games and start a knitting project, and within a couple weeks there's story in my head again and I'm writing it down. I think the best thing to do is accept that this business, and the people in it, will make you feel like crap, but persist anyway. Doesn't make it all suck any less though.

That article was interesting, and there are a lot of stories like that. A LOT of writers come from the fanfic world, with varying degrees of success. A lot of romance authors in my circle of friends came from the Twilight fanfic community, and they moved over to writing original works. Fanfic is a great way to write with training wheels--established characters, plots, settings--and create something new. But it's always frustrating to see someone achieve your dream, when it seems like they don't appreciate it. It absolutely tears you down, and it's made me almost quit so so many times.

And I'm just going to second the idea of writing for yourself. I got this deal writing the thing that made me laugh. I told someone recently that the whole book is basically an inside joke to myself, and I still feel like I pulled something over on everyone by selling it. I have no idea how it happened, but I'm so grateful it did.

Sending hugs and love to everyone as we get through this dead time--er, I mean this joyous holiday season.

Jeneral - Yes, I thought your sold book was a passion project. I didn't realize it was an inside joke with yourself. I love that! I'm so happy for you. We need more rom-com!

Earthling - Thanks for the link to your novella. I will check it out! I'm so excited to hear your news!

merlot - That quote made me laugh. Indeed!

Chibi - I'm so sorry life has you down. I didn't mean to miss your post earlier. I'm wishing you a quick turn-around on the job hunt!

Many hugs to all of us feeling down. I had my own "Why bother?" meltdown a few days before coming on here and seeing that Todd article. It had something to do with a year-end update from my agent in which I got all the rejections that had come in the last couple of months. To her credit, she apologized for failing to send some of them sooner and it was clear from the editor responses that my agent has good relationships with them and was talking to them on the phone, etc.

The editors' responses were really interesting. A couple of them were glowing and actually did give me a sigh of relief. My writing isn't crap. But the subject matter was the one thing that several cited as problematic - similar books haven't sold well in recent times. So I'm pretty much out of hope for it even if my agent isn't. It's still out with 12 editors plus it's going to 1 more in January.

And I brainstormed ideas for my next project with my agent and she was super sweet and complimentary and helpful, but I still feel like my tastes in books are out of the mainstream and how the hell am I ever going to write something enough other people will want to read? But I still want to believe in a magical intersection of talent and passion that gets it past that hurdle and speaks to a wider audience. As I said above, that's my game plan for 2019. It takes courage to write like that! But then again, I feel I have nothing to lose at this point.

Moonchild said:

spikeman - glad you don't find it upsetting. You're a better, wiser person than I am, clearly.

Click to expand...

Totally not my intention to come across as putting you down for feeling the way you feel. Def not my place to try to tell you how you should feel about the article. Was just trying to approach it from a different angle. We've all been there and I was trying to be encouraging but I think I sounded more harsh than intended. I've been at it for 10 years, 9 novels, no money or publishing deals so far, so I def have hit the rock bottom and give up stage several times already in the past. But for me it's more like, boy would I kick myself if I stopped at number 9 if the 10th would have been the winner. No guarantees but what the heck I've had some fun along the way, along with a lot of frustration along the way, of course. So, so much frustration. Allow yourself to feel the way you feel and sadness, despair, desperation, anger and even jealousy can turn into great motivation down the line.

I've given up writing for good several times. I remember sending a really dramatic message to another writer in 2015, after I'd had some negative (and totally correct) beta feedback, saying that was it, there was no hope for the manuscript, and I was giving up writing. Then I put my toys back in the pram and got an agent for that manuscript a few months later.

I'm struggling to start writing again at the moment. I feel frozen in fear and I'm not sure what I'm afraid of!

The Todd article is pretty enlightening for me. I hadn't really been paying attention to Wattpad at all, or what it was doing, so a lot of that was new ground. Being focused on adult SFF, I already knew going in that it was never going to have the same kind of mainstream appeal as something like Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, or some of the other big hits. But the Todd story really does illustrate that there can sometimes be a huge difference between writing from your heart, and striking lightning with something that the majority of readers resonate with. When you look at some of the biggest recent hits like Twilight, 50 Shades, or even Ready Player One in science fiction, none of them are really hailed for masterful language, or bold experimentation with structure, or challenging ideas. They're escapist, wish fulfillment that usually forgo skill and tap directly into some deep-seated fantasy. And as long as that fantasy is catered to in the most direct way, be it vampire boyfriends, executives picking out a random girl, or a kid being the best video game detective in the world, people go nuts.

I made peace years ago with the fact that the stuff I like to read, and write, is never going to be able to tap into that kind of mass audience wish fulfillment. But it never ceases to amaze me how some people manage to strike that nerve, and then millions of people respond. That in itself is some kind of gift--or divine intervention, depending on your belief system--that they can reach out to so many people, and speak to them emotionally, without necessarily having advanced "writer tools" to do it.

Thanks for all the kind words. To be clear, I'm not done with writing--I don't think I could be, if I tried. I have too many stories in my head. If I didn't let them out, I think I might go insane.

I just feel like I've been teetering at the edge of being fully and completely done with the publishing industry, and reading that article didn't help. If self-publishing didn't scare the crap out of me I probably would have already gone that route.

triceretops said:

Major book reviewers and readers are trying to think of a fair system to differentiate good Indie books from first-draft Indie slush. No solutions yet, but they are homing in on several ideas.

Click to expand...

I hope you're right, tri. I think I've just lost faith.

Niiicola said:

Don't be done!!! Your writing is gorgeous and the world deserves to see it. I'm sorry it's been such a rough road for you lately. I've been in a similar place.

Click to expand...

I know. And I'm so sorry. (And thank you for always being so awesomelly supportive! )

Niiicola said:

The publishing industry can be brutal, and even once you've sold a book there's no guarantee you won't end up treated very terribly. But we write because we care and we need to share our words and our message, and also because we are stubborn, stubborn bastards.

Click to expand...

+1 to all this.

Nova Odyssey said:

I get those feelings too, especially when family reminds me how writing contributes zilch financially.

Click to expand...

triceretops said:

We kick ass. What other profession rejects you 99% in the lifetime of their career, and yet they keep on going? Music? Acting? Yep. Just proves you're not in a little writing community or org. You're in the entertainment industry.

Click to expand...

See, that's what gets me. This profession/industry requires you to work super hard for years, honing and perfecting your craft. But, unless you luck out, it may pay nothing in return for a long while yet (if ever). This forces you to find a different way to pay your bills, which ends up relegating your writing work to "hobby" status, which in turn ""justifies"" it not being paid in the first place. It's messed up.

merlot143 said:

After following this conversation, I'm reminded of an interview with actress Glenn Close. She said the best advice she ever got as an actor was "Don't compare your career to anyone else's. Otherwise you'll jump out a window."

Click to expand...

Totally fair. And I never would compare my writing career to anyone else's (because sanity). The thing is, to me, "career" implies work, study, intention, effort. Not sheer friggin' fluke.

Earthling said:

GUYS, I HAVE NEWS. Not news I can share quite yet but, holy crap, good news!

Click to expand...

Yay! Can't wait to hear details!

Jeneral said:

But it's always frustrating to see someone achieve your dream, when it seems like they don't appreciate it.

Click to expand...

Yup. Hence yesterday's nausea. I feel a tad better today. Still disgusted at the industry, but less physically ill.

RaggyCat said:

My knowledge of 70s YA is pretty much nil, but I'd like to know more. Is there anything you would recommend to get started, Fuchsia?

Click to expand...

Maybe Norma Klein, Paul Zindel, and M.E. Kerr. Jezebel had this series for a while with a writer recapping her favorites of the era, and she was spot-on, I thought.

Interestingly, that same writer is quoted in the Atlantic piece about Todd, and everything that she and Todd say about current YA (mainly, that it's sanitized) seems way off. Honestly, I wonder if either of them has read much current YA. (Weren't we just talking about complaints that it's too dark and gritty?)

If you're curious to read some snippets from the After saga, and you'd like to laugh about the whole thing, I recommend Jennifer Armentrout's recaps. She stopped doing them after she decided Todd was too nice a person to mock, but a few chapters are still up, and they're funny. (I love her 50SoG and Handbook for Mortals recaps, too, in which she does not hold back.)

The Atlantic piece raises a question for me, though. Todd's books are described as sexually explicit, yet I thought Wattpad relegated everything beyond kissing/fade to black to a "Mature" dungeon where it was hard to find. Is this not so? I searched YA books recently on Wattpad out of curiosity, and stuff marked "explicit" came up among the most popular titles, including some that looked very erotica-like. So I'm confused about the whole thing.

Wishing strength to everybody who's dealing with rejection right now. It's not fun to feel like the sword is suspended over your head, either (*cough* I may know something about that).

Wattpad definitely has some out and out erotica.

I've not read anything on wattpad but it looks like a great way to write quickly and get fans.

Does anyone else have the feeling that this Todd story is sort of like comparing soap operas to great movies? That's how it strikes me. There's room for both, and yet I personally have little interest in soap operas.

Hey guys, yeah I totally believe in the sucktitude of some big projects out there. Grifters gonna grift. Even so, there’s gaps in the market that if you fill it... I suppose they will come?

I did did a lot of fanfic writing back in the day. It’s an interesting pastime, but people who are successful usually do things like Todd and the 50 Shades lady, like putting out a chapter every few days for a year etc. They get the fans but the writing... well, the less said the better.

Managed to knock off a couple of short stories while waiting for the publisher to get back to me. Accidentally got included on the in-house email chain for another (more famous) writer’s book lololol. (I was wondering why I was getting requests to upload the covers for X hahaha. Should have sent something from THIS)