The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Thanks, RaggyCat and Bryan. I think when I send my next revision to my agent I'll pick her brain about the timing for it.

Sam - Amazing how vampires made a comeback literally overnight! I was off Twitter for a few days, and suddenly vampires are a thing again.

Cristin, my agent put forth from the start that I should get a sensitivity read before my MS goes on sub, and I will be doing that soon, but she also plans to push the publisher for at least one more if they want to acquire it.

Cristin_B said:

A bit of a change of topic, but...have any of you used sensitivity readers, and, if so, at what point? I know I would like to hire sensitivity readers eventually (one for PTSD and another with expertise in the language/culture where my book is set), but...I'm hesitant to invest that amount of money in my manuscript without a guarantee it will sell. And I also wonder if it isn't worth waiting until after all the big developmental editing is complete if and when it's picked up by a publisher. Does anyone have thoughts or insight on this?

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The previous version of my book that was out on sub featured some characters that were outside of my own country/race, and I did have one editor ask about my experience with that culture when she offered an R&R. At the time, I'd already gotten a sensitivity read and was able to tell her about it. I ended up completely changing that aspect of the book over the course of the R&R, not because she asked me to but because it felt like it needed to happen. Anyway, it's definitely something that might come up if you're writing outside your own experience.

Thanks for your input, RaggedEdge and Niiicola!

Happy (?) Monday, I hope everyone had a good weekend. Extremely productive here, I finished the rewrite/revision of my WIP! I was behind going into Sunday, but I was determined to finish, so I sat down after lunch and didn't get up for six hours. I rewrote two chapters and wrote the epilogue. I have a few small tweaks to make, one very short half-scene to write and stick in, but it'll be beta-ready in a few days. I'm crazy excited about this WIP, but of course I also had a sliver of cold fear that is "what if my agent hates it oh god." I guess we'll see.

Ooh well done Jeneral! LOVE productive writing time, I feel so accomplished! Plus it's great that you're excited about your WIP... that's such a good feeling!

All good here... no updates, but managed to get some words in on my new WIP over the weekend. Up to 27K words now, so not too bad!

Cristin_B said:

Sam - Amazing how vampires made a comeback literally overnight! I was off Twitter for a few days, and suddenly vampires are a thing again.

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Hey, could you, or someone else explain this? I saw a bit of talk on Twitter about vampires, but didn't realize it meant that vampires had come back. Is this a REAL come back, as in editors and agents are looking at vampire stories again, or is this just talk on Twitter, but the actual trend is still just as dead as ever? I actually have a mothballed vampire novel sitting around... maybe I should mention that to my agent...

Awesome job on the edits, Jeneral!!!

Cristin, I think with sensitivity readers it probably depends on how major the tthing you need an SR is. If it’s just a minor character, maybe you could cut down on costs by asking the SR to only read the chunks which have that character? Ideally we’d all be able to have SR for our MSs, but at $250 per read, I can see why that’s just not a viable option for many people. You could also wait until a publisher buys it, and then ask them to hire one...

Third week of being on sub, and already have 2 Rs. Sigh. I’m really down about it all, tbh. I can’t even bring myself to edit my other MS. Just can’t seem to get out of that “Eh what’s he use, it’s never going to happen for me” headspace.

Shoeless said:

Hey, could you, or someone else explain this? I saw a bit of talk on Twitter about vampires, but didn't realize it meant that vampires had come back. Is this a REAL come back, as in editors and agents are looking at vampire stories again, or is this just talk on Twitter, but the actual trend is still just as dead as ever? I actually have a mothballed vampire novel sitting around... maybe I should mention that to my agent...

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It's legitimate. There were dozens of editors and agents asking to see vampire story queries and pitches. The key, however, is they are very clear about not wanting "Sparkly" vampires. IE rehashing the Twilight vibe. They want diverse, new takes on vampires. So...if you have an MS like that, I'd def go for it!

Congratulations, Jeneral! Finishing is such a great feeling.

*hugs*, Putputt. I'm sorry about the Rs. I'm crossing everything that when you next hear from your agent, it's with an offer.

I also saw the Twitter vampire talk. Everyone seems to be looking for something new in vampires.

After spending the weekend thinking about my R&R (which is essentially writing a new book), I opened a document and have 1,800 words. Not much, but I'll take it! I'm on vacation next week and plan to make more progress. It's nice to fall for a new(er) book again.

Putputt said:

Third week of being on sub, and already have 2 Rs. Sigh. I’m really down about it all, tbh. I can’t even bring myself to edit my other MS. Just can’t seem to get out of that “Eh what’s he use, it’s never going to happen for me” headspace.

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I FEEL THIS SO HARD. *hugs*

I'm three months in and have many Rs. And I really thought this book was the one. I spent like 8 hours editing on Saturday (I'm continuing editing past the 50-page R&R for a potential next round of sub), and afterwards I just wanted to cry for all the hours I could have been working on a new shiny when this MS likely won't sell anyway. But then, that new one probably won't sell either. So I totally get that headspace. Sigh.

Uggghhhh Putputt and Diana, I'm so sorry for the Rs and the bleahs that follow them. It's so freaking hard to keep going sometimes.

I'm taking tonight off from revising, although my plan was to dive in and start tweaking this MS. But I think I need a night off. I'm both excited and terrified to send this new MS to betas and then to my agent. I love this new MS so much, and my early readers/CPs have been so encouraging, that I'm so worried that bubble is going to burst, and my agent will say "nah, what else you got?" Probably still getting ahead of myself, but the fear is real, which is one reason I'm taking tonight off. I think some sleep will help too.

Martina - woohooo for new words! I hope you get a lot done on vacation!

I'm intrigued by all the vampire talk. I don't write them, but I used to read a lot of them back in the day. Just not sparkly ones.

Sorry to hear about the rejections, Putputt, but then as you're well aware, it's usually the rejections that come in early. I know it can be hard to have faith in the final outcome, but try to have faith in yourself and the people around you. You were clearly a good enough writer to get an agent excited about your work. You're a good enough writer to have it read by the general reading public someday. It's just a bit more circuitous and roundabout than some others, but then I know how that feels too. Just keep in mind that even if you're getting a rejection or two now, on this book, you're still making progress, and it's still being read and considered by people that have the power to put it on bookshelves just by saying yes. That's a big step.

Echoing Shoeless 100%. I am reading a CP's manuscript right now that didn't get picked up by an editor and is no longer on sub. Even without the rounds of editing a traditionally published book would get, it is far better than most of the actual books I read last year. I truly believe that once you're writing at a certain level, it's all down to finding the right connection at the exact right time. And that is really hard for the majority of books. It's still incredibly painful to go through, but please don't ever feel like you're not good enough because agents wouldn't waste their time on you if you weren't. (Also, Putt, I know for a fact that you are darn good.)

diana86 said:

I FEEL THIS SO HARD. *hugs*

I'm three months in and have many Rs. And I really thought this book was the one. I spent like 8 hours editing on Saturday (I'm continuing editing past the 50-page R&R for a potential next round of sub), and afterwards I just wanted to cry for all the hours I could have been working on a new shiny when this MS likely won't sell anyway. But then, that new one probably won't sell either. So I totally get that headspace. Sigh.

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I've been feeling the same as you and PuttPutt, with more rejections having come in the last two weeks. We now have 5 editors yet to respond to the first round of subs and it's been almost five months. Five months is my usual cut-off mark, so come 3rd June I'll be drawing a line through the names. And to prove this business is subjective, one pass last week says 'too complicated a plot', and other said they were passing because there should be 'more happening'. Ugh.

I've had a bit of devastating news re a previously published adult romance book deal I thought was done and dusted. I worked on upping the word count, as requested; I designed a brand new series based on that first book, including producing mini-syns for each novel because the (European) publisher wanted to see all this before they signed me; I spent two months plotting, building the world, engineering the couples's backstories...everything to meet the deadline. Then last week, after an enthusiastic e-mail from the managing editor and a promise to send the offer to my agent, the publisher suddenly gave her the shaft. She's gone, and nobody knows what's happening to the imprint. Rumour has it the new management are shutting it down and all her projects are no-gos.

In my mind I was already paying bills with the advance... It's been a huge blow, as I am now totally out of contract with nothing in the pipeline coming out this year. No sales on my YA historical with the agent; no shiny new romance ready to pitch to romance editors; no prospects for the previously released novel and spin-off series, as it was tailor-made for that publisher. Previously released stuff is almost as impossible to get rid off as a clingy MIL. Basically, I wasted my time on the promise of a two, then four-book deal with a decent advance!

You win some, you lose some--I've written for publishers who've sold my novels in five figures, and for houses who've sold only a hand full of copies, later gone bust, taken my books into the quagmire of bankruptcy, not paid me royalties owed... a mix. I'll (probably) rally again, but I have to admit I'm rather droopy at the moment. I do have lots of ideas for writing another adult romance, but at the moment I'm too down to write anything coherent. The romance industry is in chaos, with Big Five publishers shutting down their romance imprints and many epubs I thought were stable, simply disappearing. Even big NYT authors are having their series cut, so mid-listers like me are feeling the pinch even more. Sales are down across the board in Romance and royalties (mine, anyway) are drying up.

My, that was doom and gloomy-sorry everybody! I will finish on a positive and say my agent likes my new YA idea-a contemporary suspense with a hint of romance set in London. Maybe I should throw in some glitter-free vampires? LOL

Lots of sad and disappointing news to catch up on on this thread. :-( (Well, except the potential rise of the vampires, which is interesting more than anything else - not really my thing, but I don't object to a comeback).

Putputt and Diana, I am sorry to hear about your Rs. What Shoeless and Niiicola say is completely true. I am also more convinced than ever that thinking a book is "the one" is pointless, and it'll wind up being an unexpected book that makes it, for some unfathomable and time-specific reason outside an author's knowledge. You are both good enough to make it - agents signed you - now it's a question of having that stroke of luck at the right time. Not comforting, I know - and we all know the old "if you give up then you'll definitely never make it" adage...

Pisco, that's a very sorry saga and you have certainly had more than your fair share of poor fortune! And so sudden! Are you definitely sure your reworking of your romance package originally for the European publisher wouldn't appeal elsewhere? I'm shocked to hear that the romance industry is in such bad shape. It's not my genre but my understanding was it was a bit of an "evergreen" genre, widely read and pretty stable. I'd doubly have thought that it would have become stronger thanks to us living in gloomy times. What's changed?

Nothing to report, on my end - just revisions. I thought I was almost done but then I had one of those "OMG! What is Character X knows about Plot Strand Y ALL ALONG?" moments... which is so obvious I don't know why I didn't spot it sooner, but now requires more revising.

That's horrible Pisco I'm so sorry they pulled the rug out from beneath you at the very last moment.
I had no idea Romance publishing was in such trouble - I'd always heard Romance sells a lot. Do you know, are they taking a hit from people buying self published novels?

RaggyCat said:

Pisco, that's a very sorry saga and you have certainly had more than your fair share of poor fortune! And so sudden! Are you definitely sure your reworking of your romance package originally for the European publisher wouldn't appeal elsewhere? I'm shocked to hear that the romance industry is in such bad shape. It's not my genre but my understanding was it was a bit of an "evergreen" genre, widely read and pretty stable. I'd doubly have thought that it would have become stronger thanks to us living in gloomy times. What's changed?

Nothing to report, on my end - just revisions. I thought I was almost done but then I had one of those "OMG! What is Character X knows about Plot Strand Y ALL ALONG?" moments... which is so obvious I don't know why I didn't spot it sooner, but now requires more revising.

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Ha, maybe I am prone to a bit of hyperbole at the moment due to my mood. But until recently I thought Romance was a sure bet, but having been introduced to several author loops and spent a few hours reading the threads I believe differently now. Closures like Samhain and several HQN imprints, plus some Big Five imprints are also warning signs. Sure, people are still getting publishes, but it seems many agents are no longer requesting, sales are down (mine and many of my romance author friends' sales certainly are) and publisher are being extremely cautious. I'll still write romance (as soon as I've rallied) but my expectations are being adjusted accordingly. Not saying other people aren't experiencing the opposite, but I can only call things out from my perspective right now.

Anyhoo... lol about your revision moment! That's the beauty of re-writing and spending time with an ms to discover these things.

Is YA romance a goer for you, Pisco? As you know YA is crazy competitive but I've seen a lot of posts (mainly agents, admittedly) saying they want YA romance, and there isn't enough.

RaggyCat said:

Is YA romance a goer for you, Pisco? As you know YA is crazy competitive but I've seen a lot of posts (mainly agents, admittedly) saying they want YA romance, and there isn't enough.

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Well, I hope so. Book with agent isn't a romance, but the synopsis he approved has a strong romance thread so here's to hoping. I have been reading YA romances in my spare time and I'm pretty sure I could write for this age group (M/F), so hopefully I can produce something saleable But the book will only be ready (is it ever really 'ready'?) to send to my agent for Christmas, most probably. I'm a slow writer because I'm a non-native speaker (my excuse and it's a good one, so it's crazy glued to my brain!) Thanks for the advice!

It's still early days Putputt, but I know how hard it is to stop myself from going down that awful "it's never going to happen" hole. Having said that, my very positive rejection a few weeks ago was because they really considered it. While I hear the stories of auctions and overnight deals, I personally suspect those are the exception rather than the rule. Longer is not always a bad thing.

And yet... my latest subs have been out since the middle of Jan, and I've closed them out in my head. Gah. But, that doesn't stop me from longing for closure.

Pisco, that is some rough news, sorry to hear that. I do hope that you can maybe (??) still do something with the series? Surely if that editor wanted it, it's because there's a market for it?

So surprised to hear about romance on the wane. Like others have said, it feels like one of the most resilient genres. It would be interesting to know more about what's driving the decline - or has self-publishing (competitive pricing) really driven the medium size romance publishers out of business?

Puputt and Diana, I FEEL YOUR PAIN SO MUCH. I'm now 2 months into my first experience of being on sub with publishers, and I've had 7 rejections so far I think? So still waiting on around 9-10 editors... which is good, but it's such a long process and you get so lost in your own thoughts and hopes and fears, that it's SO easy to convince yourself it isn't going to happen. I'm feeling exactly the same way. I sort of feel a bit hopeless at the moment. And it's so hard, because despite my agent telling me not to get my hopes up, it was really hard not to. Not going to lie, my hopes were completely up. I didn't care if I didn't get a book deal with a huge advance or anything. I just want a book deal D: Ugh. Yeah. So I know how you feel... I love this thread because it's good to know that others feel the same way. It's such a solitary process, sometimes I want to scream.

I think as far as romance, the genre as a whole is moving more and more towards self-publishing; I know a lot of authors who started out with trade publishers and then moved to self-pub. I think the smaller e-pubs in particular are feeling the effects of that, because as an indie author you get more royalties and have more control over every aspect, and there's not a lot that a small e-pub can do for you that you can't do for yourself relatively inexpensively (especially considering the higher percentage of royalties you retain). So I think that's why a lot of e-pubs and smaller presses are folding lately.

I'm not sure if I believe that romance as a genre is on the wane though. I saw that discussion elsewhere around here that said that agents don't want romance and publishers aren't buying them, and I kind of gave that the side-eye. Friends of mine ran the #KissPitch pitching event on Twitter that was pretty successful. My agent wants my new romance book; she just said yesterday (I shot her an update of my ETA for getting it to her) that she's really excited to read it, and hasn't said a word about romance as a genre being in trouble. She knows I have a couple other ideas in other genres, so I think if those had a better chance she'd be steering me in that direction. I have friends who have sold romance series lately to Big 5, for pretty sweet advances. HQN has definitely gone through some restructuring with their lines, but I don't think they're going anywhere? I feel like people who work in self-pub and make their money there have some confirmation bias going on.

I DO think, however, that editors are being a lot more cautious about what they're buying. When my outside-the-box romance was rejected by editors, it was rejected with comments like "I read this in one sitting" and "I was on the edge of my seat waiting for that moment where they reunite" with lots of praise for my writing and voice, but since it was an unusual book they couldn't make it fit. Which I think goes along with what I've seen across genres... they want different but not too different.

Totally my opinion though, and I could be totally wrong. But I write romance, I love romance, and I don't plan to stop writing it anytime soon. If this new WIP doesn't sell I will most likely self-pub it, because I have a series planned now and I think it would be fun to write.

Pisco Sour said:

Well, I hope so. Book with agent isn't a romance, but the synopsis he approved has a strong romance thread so here's to hoping. I have been reading YA romances in my spare time and I'm pretty sure I could write for this age group (M/F), so hopefully I can produce something saleable But the book will only be ready (is it ever really 'ready'?) to send to my agent for Christmas, most probably. I'm a slow writer because I'm a non-native speaker (my excuse and it's a good one, so it's crazy glued to my brain!) Thanks for the advice!

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Sounds good! I think YA romance works best when it's set within a slightly bigger story (i.e. historical backdrop) rather than just solely being focused on romance, but I may be saying that because it's what I enjoy most! There's also plenty of space for M/F romance alongside the F/F and M/M.

Thanks for the romance insight, Jeneral. It's not a genre I know well but one I am interested in - everything I've written has a romance in it, but I'm not skilled enough to make the romance the focus of the book. I have to admit I know very little about self-publishing and small presses but I can see how, especially within the romance genre, they might find times rocky. I'm quite sure there will always been an appetite for romance, though different subsections of it might become most popular at different times.

All this gets me thinking, say the genre you write does go out of fashion for whatever reason: how easy is it to switch genre? Has anyone had this experience themselves?

Thanks for the explanation, Jeneral! It's very interesting to see it from someone who writes romance, and with writer friends who are on both sides of the trade/self-pub models - and have moved between them.

Sorry to hear that your book was "too different". Those editor's responses must have been hell to get, in the vein of, "Loved it, but will the market?" Grrrr. I personally think we need more work that is different.

Ah, Leewhowrites, I feel you. A primal scream into a pillow is never a bad thing - just don't damage your larynx