# of POV changes in novel

Depends.

How many POV characters are there?

msza45 said:

Not sure if I've seen this addressed, or if it's something really worth dwelling on, but I just counted the total number of POV changes in my WIP. There are 69. That seems like a whole bunch, especially because the novel will only be about 60k. So that is about 870 words between every POV switch.

Just wondering, based strictly on numbers, whether this seems like a problem.

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How many pov characters do you have? More than a couple, and you'll have quite a few changes of pov, unless you do yor povs in big blocks. How many chapters do you have? That might make a difference too. I've never read a novel and counted pops or the number of switches, though. If the story works, it works.

Why so many?

msza45 said:

...They all pretty much need to be there for the plot to work ...

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But you didn't answer why? Why are they necessary? Why must the text function this way versus that way?

If you feel like there are too many switches, you might consider combining more of the scenes as you've already begun to do. Of course, this only works if those scenes don't depend on each other.

I do have concerns about how well you can develop four major point of view characters in 60,000 words. I'm not saying it can't work, just that you should get some outside opinions about how well you've managed to do it.

Four major povs isn't that many. Fantasy novels typically have that many, sometimes more. I might question the two minor "one off" ones. I know in my first draft or so I have a couple like that, but I was able to cut them on revision. Of course, every story is different, but I can't remember reading a novel recently that had "one off" povs. This could just reflect my reading habits and tastes, however.

The issue isn't necessarily the number of pov characters, but the frequency of changes. Like I said, when I read a novel with multiple pov characters, I don't count the number of changes (I assume you are only changing at chapter or scene breaks, however, and for a logical reason). I don't even worry about whether there's a balance or pattern in the pov switches. I simply care that the story is moving forward and engaging me and that I'm interested enough in each characters arc to be happy to see their part of the story unfolding.

I have read stories where one of the povs is less interesting to me than others, either because of the way it's written or because I don't see the way the arc fits into the whole. Then there's that, "Oh, ugh, not this guy again," thing that may or may not be a deal breaker, depending on how interesting the other characters are to me to make up for it.

I also read a novel recently where the author presented the different povs as long chunks of chapters without changing too often, and it made me a bit antsy. I think I would have liked it better if she'd switched more frequently, in fact. I kept wondering what was going on with the other characters and how the different story lines fit together, and it sort of irritated me reading chapter after chapter without checking back with the other group of characters I'd invested in during the first group of chapters.

So maybe it has something to do with establishing reader expectations too?

Roxxsmom said:

Four major povs isn't that many. Fantasy novels typically have that many, sometimes more. I might question the two minor "one off" ones. I know in my first draft or so I have a couple like that, but I was able to cut them on revision. Of course, every story is different, but I can't remember reading a novel recently that had "one off" povs. This could just reflect my reading habits and tastes, however.

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I can't really think of much recently, and it used to be pretty common in fantasy. I believe The Wheel of Time had quite a few one-off (or close) POV characters. I think I might have noticed one or two in Lynn Flewelling's second Nightrunner book, which I'm reading right now. Nearly everything is with the main characters, but every once in a while, she throws in a character who gets one (or just a few) POV sections.

Yeah, Flewelling used to do that, but that was back in the 90s. Her more recent books had multiple povs, but I can't remember any being just one offers.

Seems like the more recent trend is towards consolidation of povs. This doesn't mean they're all equal. Even George RR Martin has some who appear more frequently, and some who may only get 2-3 chapters in the entire novel. But has he had any that just got one chapter in a given novel? If so, I don't remember.

I seem to be finding more fantasy lately that is first person, sometimes with more than one pov. Robin Hobb even did it with her most recent novel, adding a second first-person pov character. I think multi first benefits more from relatively balanced pov rotations than limited third does, however. For instance, in Jones and Bennett's books, they always seem to have four first-person pov characters, and they get roughly equal page time. They use named headers for scenes, but each character has a distinct enough voice they're easy to follow after you get pulled into the book.

I didn't count the number of pov changes in each of their books, but I'm guessing it's a good number. Same for Flewelling's. With GRRM, it's as many as there are chapters. I don't think he ever does back to back chapters from the same pov or has more than one pov per chapter.

James Herbert's Rats, Shaun Hutson's Slugs, Stephen King's Carrie, and Dean Koontz's Breathless have similar ratios of wordcount vs pov characters vs pov shift. When in doubt--study those who've done the same, ans compare.

dondomat said:

James Herbert's Rats, Shaun Hutson's Slugs, Stephen King's Carrie, and Dean Koontz's Breathless have similar ratios of wordcount vs pov characters vs pov shift. When in doubt--study those who've done the same, ans compare.

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Wasn't Carrie written in Omniscient? Maybe I'm wrong, since I read it a long time ago, but I seem to remember that a lot of King's earlier novels were. Don't read Koontz or Shaun Hutson, but if something is in omniscient, then the whole "number of pov characters" thing is moot, because the story is via an external narrator who can show the thoughts of any character they want so long as it makes sense for them to do so.

A good one-off POV can be a really, really powerful tool. A bit like a jackhammer in that regard, in that if you use it carelessly you are likely to end up with less foundation than you started with.

I'm struggling to think of an example off the top of my head, but I'd think Douglas Adams would throw up a couple of one-offs used extremely well, sometimes for vocal effect and sometimes for plot.

I don't know about King's more recent stuff, but The Stand and the first three Dark Tower Books (those books of his that I've read) are written in omniscient.

VeryBigBeard said:

A good one-off POV can be a really, really powerful tool. A bit like a jackhammer in that regard, in that if you use it carelessly you are likely to end up with less foundation than you started with.

I'm struggling to think of an example off the top of my head, but I'd think Douglas Adams would throw up a couple of one-offs used extremely well, sometimes for vocal effect and sometimes for plot.

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I like this. I don't think you should categorically eliminate one-off points of view. If you do it well enough, readers won't care. The key thing is that your one-off point of view adds something to the story. Does it create mystery or suspense? Then it might be worth including (just don't overdo it). If it's a way to reveal something and actually saps the tension out of the story, then you should avoid it.

msza45 said:

There are 4 major POV characters, and 4 minor ones (2 have only one scene).

I haven't quite designated the chapters yet, but they are looking to be 3-4K chunks, with prolly 3-4 changes each chapter, on average.

I actually have already made efforts to reduce POV changes. Many sections now have 2 distinct scenes in each POV. It reads much better than it did, but I'm wondering if I should keep trying to consolidate.

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All the POV changes seem like a lot to absorb. The readers have to keep track of who the POV narrator is with each shift, and with only 8-900 words it's going to be difficult to delve into the character for long.

Also, there's going to be a certain amount of words devoted to establishing which of the characters' POV we're in, and what's happened since the last shift. All of this can become disorienting very fast.

There's also the possibility that this rat-a-tat kind of writing is exciting and engaging, too. It all depends on execution.

But, just going the numbers you've presented, I'd say your instinct is right to limit these POV changes.

I think that sounds like the changes are coming much too frequently. As a reader, I would find that really, really jarring.

Four POV characters, I can easily read/work with. But, I would expect each of them to have full chapters and for the POV to only switch every ... 2,500-4,500 words? Whatever the legnth of a standard chapter is?

Doesn't sound too frequent to me. If a lot is going on and you have quite a few characters, that gives the reader less time to forget who each character is, their goals, what they're doing, all that stuff. It's easier to keep up on the minute doings of someone you live with as opposed to your sister on the other side of the country. No matter how much you love said sister, you're more likely to know what your roommate likes for dinner than she does. So long as your PoV changes are easily designated and the story keeps going and no one's left so long the reader forgets them, I don't see the problem. (And the forgetting thing could be cool for foreshadowing, if done right).

Or admittedly I could be saying that because I have 114 changes in one book and 93 in the other: a chapter for every change! Ahem. But as I'm writing that way because I like reading that style, I still don't see a problem.

Have you run this MS past any test readers without prompting them in advance about the pov changes? This may really be one of those proof in the pudding things. If your readers aren't commenting that the scenes or pov are changing too often, or that they're having trouble connecting with your characters, or that you have too many pov characters or whatever, then it's probably fine.

For me, it would depend on the number of POV characters, the number of scenes in the book, and how the frequent POV changes affect the pace of the book. You might want to have a couple of beta readers read it and then ask them if they feel as if they were bounced from head to head too quickly.

I've got 26 POV characters in my novel. Six are the main characters and the others pop in and out, some a few times, others are one-offs. Each chapter, or section - they range from half a page to 20 pages - is from a single POV.

It all depends on what the story demands and/or how you want to tell it. The only question I asked myself was, is it crystal clear to the reader? Feedback so far is, yes

msza45 said:

I actually have already made efforts to reduce POV changes. Many sections now have 2 distinct scenes in each POV. It reads much better than it did, but I'm wondering if I should keep trying to consolidate.

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I think you've got the answer here. I'm pretty open to multiple povs, and single ones, as long as they work for the story. If consolidating makes it read smoother, keep trying until it starts to lose momentum. When you're happy, get some outside opinions and see what the consensus is. Xx