Dying Suspect Berated by Police After Taser/Gun Mix-Up

Lyv · Apr 12, 2015

Yeah, crappy thread title, but I am still shaking after watching the video.

This video.

Suspect in sting runs, is on the ground, several officers restraining or working to restrain him, Reserve Deputy Robert Bates, 73, yells "Taser, taser" and uses what he apparently thinks is his taser, but is, in fact, his gun. He says, "I shot him. I'm sorry."

As the wounded man, Eric Harris, cries out that he is shot and "losing [his] breath," he hears this:

"You f---ing ran! Shut the f--- up!" he yells. "F--- your breath."

Eric Harris was transported to the hospital, where he died. This happened on April 2nd, but I didn't see a thread here, and hadn't seen it on the news until this morning. I believe it's news because the video was released.

CNN has more information, including an account of the sting.

Deputies wanted evidence on camera.

But when they recorded a sting against an alleged illegal weapons dealer in Tulsa, Oklahoma, earlier this month, cameras also rolled as Eric Courtney Harris ran, and when he was fatally shot.

I'd say that was fortunate, but it doesn't appear to matter:

Police in Oklahoma said they do not intend to further investigate an incident in which a volunteer, undercover 73-year-old “reserve deputy” mistook his gun for a Taser and shot and killed a suspect who was wrestling on the ground with a sheriff’s deputy, according to a police account.

That was before the video was released, but will that make a difference? The reserve deputy (former police officer, current insurance executive and reserve deputy volunteer) has an attorney. I've been trying to find more information, maybe something about Tulsa PD looking into policies regarding training or use of reserve deputies or something, but so far, just this from local LE:

Tulsa Police Sgt. Jim Clark said Bates suffered from "slip and capture," a phenomenon where people do the opposite of what's intended during times of extreme emergencies and pressure.

"You can train someone as much as you can... but in times of crisis, sometimes training is not going to take you through the scenario," Clark said.

So...oops? I mean, I believe Sgt. Clark, and Bates is a former police officer and advanced reserve deputy (there are levels) but seems like a good time to review policies, implement some changes, perhaps in this system:

According to Tulsa Police, Harris' killer, Bates, is classified as an advanced deputy.

Reserves are 'basic', 'intermediate', or 'advanced'. The qualify for 'advanced', officers are required to have a minimum of 320 hours of training and 25 hours of training a year.

During the annual field training program, they are tested on how to use and identify lethal and non-lethal weapons.

With the same power as paid deputies, reserves can conduct their own investigations, make arrests and work on task forces.

Is this usual? I'm going to read up, but I'm sure some AWers know about this. Bates has been put on leave, btw.

I haven't even seen any CYA/damage control statements released, at least not in the dozen or so articles I've read and on the Tulsa PD website. But I am going to keep looking.

nighttimer · Apr 12, 2015

At this rate, we're going to need a separate forum for the police shootings and brutality cases.

nighttimer · Apr 12, 2015

Lyv said:
That was before the video was released, but will that make a difference? The reserve deputy (former police officer, current insurance executive and reserve deputy volunteer) has an attorney. I've been trying to find more information, maybe something about Tulsa PD looking into policies regarding training or use of reserve deputies or something, but so far, just this from local LE:

So...oops? I mean, I believe Sgt. Clark, and Bates is a former police officer and advanced reserve deputy (there are levels) but seems like a good time to review policies, implement some changes, perhaps in this system

The only thing advanced about Bob Bates is his age. He's 73 years old and is an insurance executive who pays to be a reserve officer.

Robert Bates, a 73-year-old insurance executive-turned-deputy, accidentally fired his gun instead of a Taser—costing Eric Harris, 44, his life and adding to the tally of deadly police shootings against minorities nationwide.

On Friday, the Tulsa County Sheriff’s Department police released footage of the April 2 incident, which officials call an accident.

“He shot me! He shot me, man. Oh, my god. I’m losing my breath,” Harris says as he squirms on the ground.

But as Harris lay dying, officers are heard on tape mocking him.

“Fuck your breath,” a cop responds.

Bates, who has been a reserve deputy since 2008, is among a cadre of wealthy donors to the Tulsa sheriff’s department. He has donated thousands in vehicles and equipment to the office, and also chaired Tulsa County Sheriff Stanley Glanz’s reelection campaign in 2012.

In a statement released Sunday by the family’s attorney Daniel Smolen, Harris’s relatives demanded an independent investigation, saying the department “has every reason to want to protect Bob Bates.”

“We do not believe it is reasonable for a 73-year-old insurance executive to be involved in a dangerous undercover sting operation,” the family said, adding, “We do not believe it is reasonable for Bob Bates to be carrying a gun that was not issued by TCSO. We do not believe it is reasonable – or responsible – for TCSO to accept gifts from a wealthy citizen who wants to be ‘pay to play’ cop.”

Anyone see a possible problem here?

frimble3 · Apr 12, 2015

Problem? It sounds like a variant of 'some fool wants to play cop', only this time, instead of merely claiming to be in some sort of 'neighbourhood ~~vigilante~~ watch' group, he's rich enough to actually be allowed to dress up in a uniform and kill people in front of actual policemen.
What idiot thought that giving a 73 year old man a gun and letting him play cop, in violent activities, was a good idea?

How desperate is this department for money?

DancingMaenid · Apr 13, 2015

Seriously, what the hell? I never heard of people paying to be "reserve deputies" like this. That sounds like a horrible idea.

LittlePinto · Apr 13, 2015

Lyv said:
I haven't even seen any CYA/damage control statements released, at least not in the dozen or so articles I've read and on the Tulsa PD website. But I am going to keep looking.

There was one part of the statement that jumped out at me as feeling like CYA. It was

“Although he had training and experience for the arrest team, he’s not assigned to the arrest team,” Clark said of Bates’ role on the task force. “He came to render aid during the altercation, but he’s in a support role during the operation. That means keeping notes, doing counter-surveillance, things like that.”

(link)

That strikes me as the department saying that they really were smart enough to know that a seventy-three year old insurance exec probably shouldn't be involved in potentially violent confrontations and that he made a decision to join in.

regdog · Apr 13, 2015

LittlePinto said:
That strikes me as the department saying that they really were smart enough to know that a seventy-three year old insurance exec probably shouldn't be involved in potentially violent confrontations and that he made a decision to join in.

But they still allowed him to be on scene in an official capacity and thereby are responsible for his actions.

Lyv · Apr 13, 2015

frimble3 said:
Problem? It sounds like a variant of 'some fool wants to play cop', only this time, instead of merely claiming to be in some sort of 'neighbourhood ~~vigilante~~ watch' group, he's rich enough to actually be allowed to dress up in a uniform and kill people in front of actual policemen.
What idiot thought that giving a 73 year old man a gun and letting him play cop, in violent activities, was a good idea?

But, but, but, he was a cop for a whole year. 1964-1965. And has given thousands of dollars worth of equipment.

I read more about the reserve deputy program.

Reserve deputy who fired fatal shot was among 'lots of' wealthy donors in reserve program

Bates apparently is not alone as both a donor and reserve deputy. While the Sheriff’s Office has not released its full roster, Clark said other wealthy donors are among the agency’s 130 reserve deputies.

“There are lots of wealthy people in the reserve program,” he said. “Many of them make donations of items. That’s not unusual at all.”

The linked article has more information about training and requirements for reserve deputies and reiterates that advanced reserve deputies can do "anything a full-time deputy can do." Even unsupervised. For no pay, but I guess the job itself is the reward.

Now that the media is on the story, Tulsa PD and/or the sheriff's office may be gently nudging Bates toward an oncoming bus under which to throw him, Sgt. Jim Clark (who if I am reading two different articles on the same page of Tulsa World is a Tulsa PD officer who consulted on this matter for the Tulsa County Sheriff's office, whom he represents when he speaks on this matter) who investigated the shooting explains he was not assigned to the sting's arrest team but went on his own to go help them. And the Tulsa PD issued a statement that Bates is not affiliated with them (they specifically mention that he has not been for over 50 years), but rather the Tulsa County Sheriff's Department. The reserve deputy program is all theirs, apparently (I may have linked it to Tulsa PD earlier, apologies).

Attorney questions official report in fatal shooting by Tulsa County reserve deputy

The victim's family attorney is questioning claims that Eric Harris admitted to being on PCP and was combative with medical personnel.

Editing for cross posting:

Little Pinto said:

That strikes me as the department saying that they really were smart enough to know that a seventy-three year old insurance exec probably shouldn't be involved in potentially violent confrontations and that he made a decision to join in.

I'm leaning more towards the department coming under scrutiny and shifting blame toward Bates. But we'll see what happens.

Lyv · Apr 13, 2015

regdog said:
But they still allowed him to be on seen in an official capacity and thereby are responsible for his actions.

Yes, they allow that 73-year-old insurance executive to carry a gun and Taser and do "anything a full-time deputy can do" with or without supervision. An advanced reserve deputy can even run his own investigation.

robjvargas · Apr 13, 2015

Bates is not going to be prosecuted. UNDER THE LAW, I don't see where he did anything wrong, criminally speaking. In civil court, I think he and the department should be held liable. In an eight-figures kinda way.

It's funny how hitting even government agencies in their pocketbooks has greater effect than criminal prosecution.

Xelebes · Apr 13, 2015

I hear the rich guns go pop pop, Arriba!

Sorry, the first thing that popped in my mind when reading this.

Sheryl Nantus · Apr 13, 2015

robjvargas said:
It's funny how hitting even government agencies in their pocketbooks has greater effect than criminal prosecution.

Too often money trumps all other moral and civil rights...

but I agree - this is going to be a costly lawsuit and one that the family will win easily. Against the force and most likely the idiot in question as well. At 73 he should have been sitting behind a desk filing papers if he wanted to still play at being a cop.

onuilmar · Apr 13, 2015

Lyv said:
As the wounded man, Eric Harris, cries out that he is shot and "losing [his] breath," he hears this:

Quote:

"You f---ing ran! Shut the f--- up!" he yells. "F--- your breath."

What bothers me the most is how police, official ones ya know, responded to the shooting.

For me, that response encapsulates the entire problem...the sheer indifference of the police to the consequences of their actions.

And it's that ingrained attitude that allows this behavior to run rampant...and escalate because there are no consequences for them.

They get a free pass.

(I am not saying all cops are bad. I am saying that bad cops are given a free pass. No one stops them, runs interference. Even in the Scott shooting, the other officers appearing later did not file reports contradicting Slager. It's only because of an outsider that Slager will face consequences. But really all the cops at the scene who included in their reports items such as the administration of CPR should also face some sort of consequence.)

Don · Apr 13, 2015

Lyv said:
Yes, they allow that 73-year-old insurance executive to carry a gun and Taser and do "anything a full-time deputy can do" with or without supervision. An advanced reserve deputy can even run his own investigation.

That gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "justice for sale."

Filigree · Apr 13, 2015

Sorry for all the AW members reading this from Oklahoma, but it reminds me again why I don't want to live there or visit. And I have cousins in Tulsa - and I live in AZ, which can be nearly as bad.

73. Insurance executive. Paying to play cop. Yeah, that civil suit is gonna cost him and the PD.

Diana Hignutt · Apr 13, 2015

So, this is like a human hunting program for the rich? That's f-ed up.

nighttimer · Apr 13, 2015

robjvargas said:
Bates is not going to be prosecuted. UNDER THE LAW, I don't see where he did anything wrong, criminally speaking. In civil court, I think he and the department should be held liable. In an eight-figures kinda way.

Okay, then explain if you're cool with Deputy Dawg Bob "Big Game Hunter" Bates not doing anything wrong "criminally-speaking," what did he do wrong in an eight-figures civil suit kinda way?

Bates isn't an active member of the police force, Tulsa World reported. He's an insurance executive who volunteers during his free time as a reserve deputy, which is made up of about 130 people total. Many of the people in the reserve, including Bates, donate equipment to the sheriff's office as well, including guns, stun guns, vehicles, and even the sunglasses cameras that recorded the shooting.

Reserve deputies are divided into three categories, according to Tulsa World: basic, intermediate, and advanced. Bates is considered advanced, meaning he can do practically anything a full-time deputy can do. Still, the sheriff's office acknowledged to Tulsa World that even an advanced reserve deputy would normally be at an undercover operation in more of a support role — taking notes and doing counter-surveillance, for example.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/12/8395457/eric-harris-police-shooting

Take notes? Fuck that! I'm gonna bust a cap in his ass! YEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAA!!!!!

I can see Bates' attorneys making the case since he has the power and authority of a fulltime deputy, why can't he shoot someone in the line of duty and not be held culpable for it?

Bates had the uniform, the badge, the taser, the gun and the power to kill Eric Davis and he got the power the old-fashioned way: The Tulsa cops put up a "For Sale" up and Bates bought it.

robjvargas said:
It's funny how hitting even government agencies in their pocketbooks has greater effect than criminal prosecution.

Funny "ha-ha" or funny like that's so fucked up?

veinglory · Apr 13, 2015

If a police officer shooting a fleeing suspect on purpose can be charged with murder, I don't see why shooting one through incompetence could not be negligent homicide.

In fact his intention to use the taser is not necessarily a good defense as many agencies permit tasers only when use of the gun would otherwise be necessary.

rugcat · Apr 13, 2015

veinglory said:
If a police officer shooting a fleeing suspect on purpose can be charged with murder, I don't see why shooting one through incompetence could not be negligent homicide.

In fact his intention to use the taser is not necessarily a good defense as many agencies permit tasers only when use of the gun would otherwise be necessary.

There's a parallel to the case of BART policeman Johannes Mehserle who shot and killed Oscar Grant. His contention was that he had meant to use his taser, but had fired his gun by mistake.

He was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, although many did not believe his story and believe he should've been convicted of murder. I see no reason why this fuckwad should not be convicted of negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter as well.

Vince524 · Apr 13, 2015

rugcat said:
There's a parallel to the case of BART policeman Johannes Mehserle who shot and killed Oscar Grant. His contention was that he had meant to use his taser, but had fired his gun by mistake.

He was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, although many did not believe his story and believe he should've been convicted of murder. I see no reason why this fuckwad should not be convicted of negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter as well.

Ditto. He might try, if it went to court, to claim some sort of diminished capacity due to age, but then why was he allowed to do this in the first place?

rugcat · Apr 13, 2015

TULSA, Okla. —

A Tulsa County reserve deputy who shot and killed a man during an undercover operation on April 2 was charged today with Second-Degree Manslaughter in the death.

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/tulsa-county-reserve-deputy-charged-second-degree-/nkscF/

Lyv · Apr 13, 2015

The charge is something, anyway. I agree with this Tulsa World editorial:

Time for a thorough review of Tulsa County reserve deputy program

It includes this gem:

Bates has received hundreds of hours of specialized training, including homicide investigation and meth lab investigation and decontamination. He also was chairman of and a $2,500 donor to Sheriff Stanley Glanz’s 2012 re-election campaign.

That's not all he donated (in other links, it's reported he donated more than one vehicle, for example).

frimble3 · Apr 13, 2015

Lyv said:
Yes, they allow that 73-year-old insurance executive to carry a gun and Taser and do "anything a full-time deputy can do" with or without supervision. An advanced reserve deputy can even run his own investigation.

So, what's to stop some rich loon from 'investigating' the neighbours, or a business competitor, or, indeed, his kid's latest date? Or anyone he likes, basically?
(Near me, there was the case of an anti-abortion police officer caught using the police data-base to collect information from the license plates of cars parked at a local abortion clinic).

And, if called on it, if he hasn't actually done anything criminal (yet) he could just quit. No consequences, it's not like he's got a career to protect, and, by using the rich for these positions, there's no particular fear of being unemployed.

Vince524 · Apr 13, 2015

To be honest, I've never heard of a program like this. I was once part of a NYC Housing Police Cadet Corp which was a college program. We patrolled with cops and did community outreach programs in exchange for college tuition. I worked in East NY. They wouldn't even give us nightsticks, let alone guns and tasers. (Or course, tasers weren't common back then.) And the department was responsible if we effed up. (Which was one of the big reasons why we weren't given any weapon.

I remember once asking what are we supposed to do if we're attacked? Use strong language?

I was told to consult my handbook which told me that no cadet, while in uniform would use profane language.

cmhbob · Apr 13, 2015

The idea of reserve officers or deputies being politically connected is nothing new. It happened in Ohio where I grew up, and it happens in Oklahoma, where I live now.

In general, a reserve program is a good thing. It lets a department beef up their staffing quickly for events like football games, presidential visits, etc, and do so in a cost-effective way. Ohio law requires anyone with arrest authority to complete a police academy, which used to be about 420 hours on a variety of topics. I'm pretty sure Oklahoma requires a CLEET card, but I'm not sure on the amount of training currently required.

And the whole reason TASERS are carried butt-forward on the weak (non-gun) side is to help prevent such incidents. They started doing it after...an accidental shooting by a law enforcement officer. Originally TASERS were carried in a drop holster, below the firearm. One officer reached for the TASER but drew and fired her duty handgun. Cannot recall what happened to her.

Dying Suspect Berated by Police After Taser/Gun Mix-Up

I meant to do that.

No Gods No Masters

No Gods No Masters

Heckuva good sport

New kid...seven years ago!

Perpetually confused

The Scavengers

I meant to do that.

I meant to do that.

Delerium ex Ennui

Holding out for a Superhero...

(w)ride like the wind

All Living is Local

Mildly Disturbing

Very Tired

No Gods No Masters

volitare nequeo

Lost in the Fog

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Lost in the Fog

I meant to do that.

Heckuva good sport

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Did...did I do that?