Any pilots out there?

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
I'm looking for help from a pilot.

I need to be taken through the controls of a Junkers 52/3m three motor troop transport WW2 aircraft.

I have a photo of the controls from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_52#mediaviewer/File:Junkers_JUn52_cockpit.JPG

Junkers_Ju_52


JJ
 
Last edited:

cmhbob

Did...did I do that?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
5,770
Reaction score
4,951
Location
Green Country
Website
www.bobmuellerwriter.com
I'm not a pilot, but I do know that the Junkers was not a turboprop aircraft. It had three radial engines. Turboprops didn't fly until after World War II, at least according to the Wiki article.
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
thanks

Thanks for that, Bob. I've no idea what a radial engine is, or a turboprop for that matter. I just know that the Junkers 52 had 3 engines. I need information about the controls.

What is the difference between radial and turboprop?

JJ
 

cbenoi1

Banned
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
5,038
Reaction score
977
Location
Canada
Radial engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4Dg7JuH-48

Turboprop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teICr3Yg14U


WW2-era airplane engines needed a lot more manual tuning than the more modern airplanes we see today. That's why it's not unusual to see a 'third' pilot - called the flight engineer - in the cockpit of the larger aircrafts and whose role was to supervise the engines and related systems. Fuel flow. Oil temperature and pressure. Hydraulics. Cylinder temperature. Exhaust gas temperature. Manifold pressure. Carburetor flow. Propeller RPM. Carburetor mixture.

If you want to have a taste of what it's like to operate a WW2-era cargo plane, I suggest you watch the reality-TV show "Ice Pilots NWT". It's the story of real-world Buffalo Airways who operate Douglas DC-3 and DC-4 airplanes in the Canadian Northwest territories. You can find many episodes online on YouTube. Many of those have in-cockpit sequences in which pilots explain what they are doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2aP1NthbVY&list=UU2lOE9zII8N1wGZPjIix4xw


-cb
 
Last edited:

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Thanks for that. It seems a turboprop might be a sort of jet engine? I'm glad I only have to learn how to control 3 radial engines :)

I've removed the word "turboprop" from the original post.

JJ
 
Last edited:

Trebor1415

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
653
Reaction score
82
Location
Michigan
What do you need specifically? A bit of flavor for a cockpit scene? A full run down on all the instruments? A general understanding of how the plane was flown? etc
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Hi Trebor, I need a run down on the main instruments, and maybe some guidance on how the plane would react if it lost one of its engines.

JJ
 

alleycat

Still around
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
72,885
Reaction score
12,235
Location
Tennessee
I used to be a private pilot and might be able to help a little, but I don't know anything about flying a WWII era tri-motor. The biggest problem with a multi-engine plane is losing one engine on take-off.

Just let me know if I can be of any help.

They used to bring an old Ford Tri-Motor to air shows and give rides. If I remember correctly, if that plane lost just one engine it was in big trouble.
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Hi Alleycat, Thanks for responding. What I had in mind was losing the engine on the nose in the sky well after takeoff, but before landing. I don't think my civilian pilot would land the plane if he had to keep it level. I thought the loss of the nose engine would tend to lower the nose and create some drag... If you look at the picture of the cockpit you'll see lots of controls in sets of 3 (red and black ones) on the pilot's side and on the co-pilot's side. Also, some red valve screws (fuel controls?) beside the wireless on the co-pilot side, and about 6 similar valves (black) in front of the pilot. I'm not sure why there are so many of these. Also, don't know what the controls in front of the co-pilot are for (bomb release, maybe?). JJ
 

alleycat

Still around
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
72,885
Reaction score
12,235
Location
Tennessee
Again, I don't know anything about that plane or tri-motors.

Generally, losing one engine in flight isn't that bad on a multi-engine plane (assuming calm weather conditions). These days the propeller of the engine that is out is "feathered"--that is, the blades of the propeller are turned so that they produce less drag. Losing the central engine of a tri-motor should be less of a problem.

I would have to do some research myself to understand the controls in the picture you linked. I might guess that some of those valves are fuel tank valves, but I really have no idea. Fuel tank management is a bigger task on planes with multiple fuel tanks, at least on smaller planes and possibly older planes.

The bottom three levers on the pilot's side are fuel mixture controls (the top three being power).
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
That video was a great help, Alleycat, thanks.

Apparently, there's a Junkers 52/3m in Britain somewhere owned by a company called "Aces High". They use it for film work (e.g. Indiana Jones).

JJ
 
Last edited:

alleycat

Still around
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
72,885
Reaction score
12,235
Location
Tennessee
I found a photo of a similar cockpit with the controls labeled, but unfortunately they were numbered and I couldn't find a legend for what each number was. You might have better luck; I only make a quick search. I also found a better photo with the control labels clearly visible but they were in German.
 

alleycat

Still around
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
72,885
Reaction score
12,235
Location
Tennessee
I just did a Google search for the Junkers "cockpit controls" and looked at the photos. There are a number of photos of similar cockpits, some of them better than the one in the wiki link.
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
I followed you into googleland and found a diagram of the instrument panel with German legend (from a Greek diving expedition at a sunken J52/3m wreck). I'm still hoping to get some info about the controls, especially those weird handles on the co-pilot side.
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Couldn't find "Aces High". There must be a pilot in the UK somewhere who knows how to fly this airplane.
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Alleycat: How would you turn right? I'm assuming this would take a combination of stick movement to the right and some action with the pedals?

JJ
 

Aerial

There is no spoon.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
1,528
Reaction score
460
Alleycat: How would you turn right? I'm assuming this would take a combination of stick movement to the right and some action with the pedals?

JJ

The cockpit photos show a control wheel, not a stick. So to turn right, you would rotate the control wheel to the right. If you did nothing else, this would cause the airplane to roll to the right and begin a turn. The steepness of the turn would depend on the bank angle you rolled to. However, due to the aerodynamic properties of aircraft, the nose of the airplane would try to rotate away from the direction of turn as you rolled into the turn. This kind of turn is called an uncoordinated turn, and pilot's don't like it.

To coordinate the turn, the pilot would "add rudder" by pushing on the correct pedal in the cockpit to compensate. He would be able to see that his turn was coordinated by looking at the slip-skid indicator. If the slip-skid indicator is centered, the aircraft is making a coordinated turn. From the pictures I found by googling, I can't tell if the Junkers had a slip-skid indicator and I don't know much about that era of aircraft. It's a fairly simply instrument, and from the level of instrumentation in that cockpit I would guess they did have one. I just can't say for sure.

Aerial
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Thanks for that Aerial. I have numbered list of all the instruments in german. I'll translate them and see if I can find a "slip-skid".

Do you have any idea what the handles in front of the co-pilot are for?
They look a bit like ski poles with loop handles on.
 
Last edited:

Aerial

There is no spoon.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
1,528
Reaction score
460
Thanks for that Aerial. I have numbered list of all the instruments in german. I'll translate them and see if I can find a "slip-skid".

Do you have any idea what the handles in front of the co-pilot are for?
They look a bit like ski poles with loop handles on.

They look like they're probably engine controls of some sort (if I'm looking at the same thing you are) since there are three of them. The pilots would need to be able to regulate things like fuel mixture, prop pitch (if they were variable pitch props, which I don't know), prop speed, etc.

Sorry, prop is short for propeller.

A little bit about engines: Many aircraft, especially older ones, use piston engine technology fairly similar to car or truck engines. These engines turn propellers to give the aircraft its thrust. Propeller aircraft today use avgas, which basically aviation-specific gasoline. Some aircraft have used diesel, but I don't know any details, and I don't know for sure what your Junkers would have used. The term "turboprop" refers to a turbocharged engine (the technology is just like a turbocharger in a car) used to turn the propeller. Radial engines are also piston engines but have the cylinders arranged in a circle instead of in rows like a car engine.

Jets are an entirely different type of engine. They do not have cylinders and pistons and instead depend on the burning of the compressed fuel-air mixture to generate the necessary thrust as it's expelled. Jets use a different kind of fuel, more akin to kerosene than gasoline, and do not have a propeller on the front of them.

Aerial
 

euclid

Where did I put me specs?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,964
Reaction score
229
Location
Paradise
Website
www.jjtoner.com
Thanks for that simviation video, cb.

Aerial: I can only see 2 of those ski pole type controls on the co-pilot side.

JJ
 

ClareGreen

Onwards, ever onwards
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
791
Reaction score
121
Location
England
Not a pilot, just grew up around aircraft.

The Junkers 52 has three radial engines, so anything you can see three identical ones of is to do with the engines. That takes care of a lot of the centre console and the instruments just above it. (Turboprops are not piston engines, they're jets, despite having a propellor; these are piston engines.) Radial engines are powerful but bulky, ideal for aviation but difficult to shoehorn into the more limited space available in a car, and have a very distinctive sound.

It's difficult to work out what some of the other instruments are from that picture; the compass is the pilot's centre-top flat thing, turn-and-slip is the centre-middle and attitude is centre-bottom. The others I'm not sure about, but altitude and air speed indicators will definitely be part of it, along with any navigational instruments this thing has - VOR/DME, for example.

In this as in several other aircraft of the era it looks as though the copilot also got the engine and fuel management jobs, and the daisy-like turny things on the right are almost certainly to do with plumbing, so probably fuel (those are classic plumbing fixtures, so there almost have to be pipes of some sort involved; coolant with radials is IIRC usually dealt with in the individual engine and only monitored from the cockpit and oil works likewise, leaving only fuel to be supplied). The co-pilot needs a set of the pilot's instruments, so anything on that side but not mirrored on the pilot's is probably to do with engines and fuel.

Hope that helps!