[Promotion] Goodreads

zmethos · Feb 27, 2018

Sage said:
Not gonna lie, the fit you're throwing in your book description and bio on Goodreads is doing far more harm than any title mishap that might be happening here. Imagine you're a potential reader who's searching for your title. And then they read the description:

How would that entice them to read your book?.

My thoughts exactly when I went over to GR to see what the issue might be. The cover looked interesting, but the blurb is just a rant against Goodreads, and most people aren't going to take the extra step of clicking over to whatever site you try to send them to just because you feel like GR has screwed up your title.

Sage · Feb 27, 2018

Furthermore, anyone who does read your book wouldn't dare give a review of it--on any site--for fear of your response.

KTC · Feb 27, 2018

zmethos said:
My thoughts exactly when I went over to GR to see what the issue might be. The cover looked interesting, but the blurb is just a rant against Goodreads, and most people aren't going to take the extra step of clicking over to whatever site you try to send them to just because you feel like GR has screwed up your title.

ABSOLUTELY! That space is specifically for the synopsis of the book. Don't give that and it's goodbye...

amergina · Feb 27, 2018

Something to consider:

The Lord of the Rings was one book broken up into three parts because it was too big (at the time) to publish as one novel.

Those parts are:

Part 1: The Fellowship of the Ring
Part 2: The Two Towers
Part 3: The Return of the King

You'll see on Goodreads that they're listed as The Return of the King (The Lord of the Rings #3)

But on the cover, you'll see "The Lord of the Rings, Part 3: The Return of the King"

RoadTripDog · Feb 28, 2018

If it would make any difference I would post the original thread with the librarians. It was going along very nicely, we were even sharing minor personal things. Then out of nowhere, one librarian said he was going to change my titles and I brought up the fact that his change violated the ISBN Terms of Service. I did not rant and rage as so many of you accuse me. You don't know, you have not seen the original thread yet I am accused of this. I continued to have the discussion with the librarian into the next day, when a librarian moderator comes along and says "This thread has served its purpose" and closed it. At no time was there any ranting or raving or threatening of lawsuits.

I did not expect anyone at AW to have a magic wand to fix the problem. I did not think that AW had power over GR. I don't know where that came from because I did not express that thought. It seemed to be a good idea to ask a group of authors if they had experienced this kind of problem, and what can be done about it. I thought it might be very helpful to getting the problem solved. Who better to consult than authors? Instead I get accused of things that I have not done. I am amazed at the unfounded comments about how vicious I am. I'm not at all vicious. I have never bitten anybody. I just wonder how many of the commenters here would simply accept having a website with an audience of millions of readers change their book titles.

Here is a direct quote from the moderator here on December 28, after I posted my first request to AW, asking me to wait until after the holidays:

"Hopefully, one of our resident librarians can advise how to untangle your titles. A lot of folks are elsewhere this week, however, so it might be a few days."

I waited until near the end of February to bring the question to a larger group of authors here. That doesn't sound like I was making demands or unreasonable requests.

Since the original thread with the GR librarians was closed, the only way I can get my request in front of the librarians is to start a new thread there, which is exactly what I was chastised for doing here. I was also told I should not have posted all the history about my titles, but an examination of the thread shows I did that by request from one of the earlier commenters.

I was referred to the Goodreads support staff by a librarian and I have already recounted what happened there. In fact, when the GR Expert fixed my titles, I was sent a request to respond to a survey and I gave some extremely nice comments. The next day the Expert said the librarians changed the titles back. I asked (very politely) if there was a way to appeal to GR management and she never responded. My decision to file a lawsuit came about recently because GR closed off all avenues of appeal. Yet I read here that all I have to do is ask the librarians. I have already explained how it was the librarians that caused the problem.

Yes, the first two books were one book split in two and the titles are the same as the series name, with a sub-title for each. That has been done before. The covers of the books are very obvious about the title and the sub-title. The page of the librarians manual that was sent to me has a paragraph about book titles with the same name as the series title, and the description is exactly how my book titles are shown in the ISBN. I might add, at the risk of giving too much history, that my books have been on GR since August 28, 2015 with the titles shown correctly. Over two years later, a librarian decides they are wrong. Which begs the question: What is the real title? The title that the author gave the book and recorded properly under its ISBN number, or the alteration that can only create confusion?

And it does make a difference that GR shows my titles incorrectly. I really doubt that very many authors would accept that. A few have posted that my books show up on a search. They did not search for my books using the GR altered titles. Last time I tried it, there were over 100 pages of results. I went through the first 20 pages and my books still had not appeared. They appear on the first page when searched by the real title. Readers probably would not go past the first or second page. But debating about what a search result shows is not the point. The point is, what is the real title? And what is so wrong about asking GR to use it?

I made no threat - just a promise that I will file a lawsuit since that is the last avenue of redress. My request for help here was a final attempt to see if there were any other avenues. I was hoping to avoid having to use a lawsuit. All I want is my titles to be listed correctly. That is all I ask. It should be obvious that it would be in everyone's best interest to have correct information in the GR database. No one, not even GR benefits from altering my titles.

cornflake · Feb 28, 2018

RoadTripDog said:
If it would make any difference I would post the original thread with the librarians. It was going along very nicely, we were even sharing minor personal things. Then out of nowhere, one librarian said he was going to change my titles and I brought up the fact that his change violated the ISBN Terms of Service. I did not rant and rage as so many of you accuse me. You don't know, you have not seen the original thread yet I am accused of this. I continued to have the discussion with the librarian into the next day, when a librarian moderator comes along and says "This thread has served its purpose" and closed it. At no time was there any ranting or raving or threatening of lawsuits.

I did not expect anyone at AW to have a magic wand to fix the problem. I did not think that AW had power over GR. I don't know where that came from because I did not express that thought. It seemed to be a good idea to ask a group of authors if they had experienced this kind of problem, and what can be done about it. I thought it might be very helpful to getting the problem solved. Who better to consult than authors? Instead I get accused of things that I have not done. I am amazed at the unfounded comments about how vicious I am. I'm not at all vicious. I have never bitten anybody. I just wonder how many of the commenters here would simply accept having a website with an audience of millions of readers change their book titles.

Here is a direct quote from the moderator here on December 28, after I posted my first request to AW, asking me to wait until after the holidays:

"Hopefully, one of our resident librarians can advise how to untangle your titles. A lot of folks are elsewhere this week, however, so it might be a few days."

I waited until near the end of February to bring the question to a larger group of authors here. That doesn't sound like I was making demands or unreasonable requests.

Since the original thread with the GR librarians was closed, the only way I can get my request in front of the librarians is to start a new thread there, which is exactly what I was chastised for doing here. I was also told I should not have posted all the history about my titles, but an examination of the thread shows I did that by request from one of the earlier commenters.

I was referred to the Goodreads support staff by a librarian and I have already recounted what happened there. In fact, when the GR Expert fixed my titles, I was sent a request to respond to a survey and I gave some extremely nice comments. The next day the Expert said the librarians changed the titles back. I asked (very politely) if there was a way to appeal to GR management and she never responded. My decision to file a lawsuit came about recently because GR closed off all avenues of appeal. Yet I read here that all I have to do is ask the librarians. I have already explained how it was the librarians that caused the problem.

Yes, the first two books were one book split in two and the titles are the same as the series name, with a sub-title for each. That has been done before. The covers of the books are very obvious about the title and the sub-title. The page of the librarians manual that was sent to me has a paragraph about book titles with the same name as the series title, and the description is exactly how my book titles are shown in the ISBN. I might add, at the risk of giving too much history, that my books have been on GR since August 28, 2015 with the titles shown correctly. Over two years later, a librarian decides they are wrong. Which begs the question: What is the real title? The title that the author gave the book and recorded properly under its ISBN number, or the alteration that can only create confusion?

And it does make a difference that GR shows my titles incorrectly. I really doubt that very many authors would accept that. A few have posted that my books show up on a search. They did not search for my books using the GR altered titles. Last time I tried it, there were over 100 pages of results. I went through the first 20 pages and my books still had not appeared. They appear on the first page when searched by the real title. Readers probably would not go past the first or second page. But debating about what a search result shows is not the point. The point is, what is the real title? And what is so wrong about asking GR to use it?

I made no threat - just a promise that I will file a lawsuit since that is the last avenue of redress. My request for help here was a final attempt to see if there were any other avenues. I was hoping to avoid having to use a lawsuit. All I want is my titles to be listed correctly. That is all I ask. It should be obvious that it would be in everyone's best interest to have correct information in the GR database. No one, not even GR benefits from altering my titles.

I think some of the questions about how the interactions may have gone could have been based in the accusations that AW somehow buried the thread originally, was doing so to cater to GR , etc., etc. You made several accusations of that sort.

Old Hack · Feb 28, 2018

You've been through the available processes at GoodReads, and they are no longer prepared to talk with you about it, by the sound of it.

So that's it. There's nothing you can do.

A lawsuit will only cost you money. It won't change anything, because GoodReads is not obliged to list your books at all, and can list them how it wants to.

The issue with the titles is a non-issue. Loads of books have errors in their listings. You are not an exception. This does not affect your ability to promote them and even if it did, GoodReads is not obliged to do anything for you. It is not a public service.

You would be best served changing your books' descriptions on GoodReads to provide a strong selling blurb, taking down all your posts about this on your blog, and forgetting about it. Because the way you're behaving the only thing you're achieving is to put people off your books: readers, reviewers, everyone.

Sheryl Nantus · Mar 1, 2018

Go ahead, file a lawsuit.

See how that does for your sales.

What you *should* do is move on, either change your covers or change your titles - it's already been pointed out that it's confusing to the average viewer, and that's YOUR audience. If they're confused, they likely won't buy the book.

They're also not going to buy the book if all they see is a scree about GR in place of an actual blurb.

If this is the mountain you want to die on, by all means toss money down that black hole. But if you want to pursue a career as a writer and make sales, take the advice given here.

CaoPaux · Mar 1, 2018

RoadTripDog said:
Here is a direct quote from the moderator here on December 28, after I posted my first request to AW, asking me to wait until after the holidays:

"Hopefully, one of our resident librarians can advise how to untangle your titles. A lot of folks are elsewhere this week, however, so it might be a few days."

I waited until near the end of February to bring the question to a larger group of authors here. That doesn't sound like I was making demands or unreasonable requests.

Maybe -- just maybe -- if you'd left out the insinuations and accusations, you'd've been better received.

And it does make a difference that GR shows my titles incorrectly. I really doubt that very many authors would accept that. A few have posted that my books show up on a search. They did not search for my books using the GR altered titles. Last time I tried it, there were over 100 pages of results. I went through the first 20 pages and my books still had not appeared. They appear on the first page when searched by the real title. Readers probably would not go past the first or second page. But debating about what a search result shows is not the point. The point is, what is the real title? And what is so wrong about asking GR to use it?

Why would anyone search for the "incorrect" title? Readers search by author name, or the title as they see it on the cover. Both of which find you just fine. (Why isn't *that* the point?)

Regardless, GR members will be used to their titling scheme, and passersby -- if they even notice the difference -- will be much more concerned with the lack of information on your book.

Old Hack · Mar 1, 2018

Following on from what Cao has said, you don't need to market or promote your books to people who are already searching for your books by your name or any of their many titles. Those people already know about your books, are interested enough to look for them, and have all the information they need to find them--on GoodReads, or anywhere else. The people you need to market your books to are the ones who don't know about you, or your books. They won't be looking your books up anywhere because they don't know about them, so there's no way this issue is preventing you from marketing to them.

(I hope that makes sense: it feels convoluted, but I know what I mean.)

BenPanced · Mar 1, 2018

RoadTripDog said:
I did not expect anyone at AW to have a magic wand to fix the problem. I did not think that AW had power over GR. I don't know where that came from because I did not express that thought.

Might wanna go back and check your post history (emphasis mine):

RoadTripDog said:
I will try to make this more clear. I included the link to the original thread so the history of what happened would be quickly available, rather than posting the same information all over again. Whether or not the original post was moved to placate GR or not, it does appear as a possibility and if that is the case, then it should be disclosed. If it was not done to placate GR, then just say so and that's that. It was a question that I felt needed to be asked and I won't apologize for asking. I was brought up to put things out in the open rather than let them smolder.

Direct quote.

EMaree · Mar 5, 2018

Okay, RoadTripDog. I feel like you're listening and trying hard to change your tone. I noticed a big change in your latest post, and I appreciate that. So here's a simple fix to this issue: if you have 50 books added to your Goodreads account (if not, do so) then apply to be a librarian. I can't guarantee you'll be accepted, but it's usually a quick 'n easy process, and it means you will never again have to worry about strangers changing your books. You can change them back to your hearts desire.

You'll also get an inside look at the process, and just how impersonal it all is. It's just a boring database, it's all very anti-climatic.

--

I've tried to fix the titles to your liking, but it is difficult and I'm going to explain why. Because you have formatted the third book in the series entirely differently from the other two, the database is struggling to see this as one series. The formatting that you're annoyed with -- (The Roaring Road #1/2/3) -- is how the database marks a series.

This is not a problem with the database. This is because your format is inconsistent, and if it confuses a database, it'll confuse readers too.

Goodreads is not a sales portal. Goodreads is a reading database. You would be mistaken to expect it to behave the same way as a marketplace like Amazon: the primary purpose is to create a clear database, not to sell a book, so consistency of titles matters here.

I can revert your titles to the original format, but I will only do this on your agreement that you understand this might break the series link (this series list will probably no longer work). I don't know how to make your specific title format work without breaking this, that's a problem you'll need to puzzle out.

The librarian who changed the titles was trying to help you out by linking the series and following site format. The changes you request are going to make it harder for readers to understand how your series fits together. If I change it back, another librarian will probably change it again, so ultimately you're going to need a librarian account if you want to fight for a confusing and non-standard title format.

---

On a different note: I know a few people have highlighted the sales damage that your anti-Goodreads rant is doing on the Goodreads site, but I'll also add a recommendation that you clean up your author site. At the moment almost every single page is a massive, screen-consuming anti-Goodreads rant and it looks massively unprofessional.

Your site is where people go to learn about and buy your book. You've made that very difficult to do because the current focus of the site is the anti-Goodreads message.

PeteMC · Mar 5, 2018

Mate, this is absolutely daft. If I go to Goodreads and search for "The Roaring Road" you are literally the first two results that come up. Great. That works, leave well alone.

However, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of anyone buying your book now they've found it: they have no idea what its about, because the blurb is an overblown tantrum about Goodreads rather than a description of the book. Even if your potential buyer has the patience to click the link to your website, all they see there is the same tantrum all over again but in a bigger, angrier font. This is sales suicide, surely you can see that?

AW Admin · Mar 6, 2018

PeteMC said:
Mate, this is absolutely daft. If I go to Goodreads and search for "The Roaring Road" you are literally the first two results that come up. Great. That works, leave well alone.

However, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of anyone buying your book now they've found it: they have no idea what its about, because the blurb is an overblown tantrum about Goodreads rather than a description of the book. Even if your potential buyer has the patience to click the link to your website, all they see there is the same tantrum all over again but in a bigger, angrier font. This is sales suicide, surely you can see that?

Yep. This exactly. Stop wasting time and energy on this, and attacking volunteer librarians, and get some reviews. And write the next book.

[Promotion] Goodreads

zmethos

from words to worlds

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong

RoadTripDog

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

EMaree

a demon for tea

PeteMC

@PeteMC666

AW Admin