How to help someone that seems COMPLETELY clueless

ShaunHorton

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So, I've mentioned my friend in the main thread, but I've since found out more details.

He's actually published at least four books with PA, going back to 2007. So, whether he's actually completely clueless about everything, or may be one of the exceptions to PA treating people badly, I'm not sure. All I know is that it is almost painful for me to see him posting up the Amazon link to his latest book in random groups on Facebook and I want to shake him awake, point him here, to any of the dozens of sites reporting their scams and bad behavior.

The other main issue though, which is what's holding me back, is that he has a real history of depression and anxiety issues, and I don't want to bring on something as heavy as telling him his writing career is an illusion.

Really. I'm kind of at a loss for what to do. I want to help him, but at this point I think it might be the best thing to just let him carry on with what he imagines is a good deal.
 

Chris P

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Well, you can't tell someone they aren't happy. If he's found a way to meet his writing goals with PublishAmerica / America Star Books then who is anyone to tell him differently?

If it were me in your shoes, I would continue to gently point him in the direction of other writing resources and information (such as here, Writer Beware, etc.) but let him make up his own mind. If you force it now you might ruin a chance to be helpful later.
 

Marian Perera

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He's actually published at least four books with PA, going back to 2007. So, whether he's actually completely clueless about everything, or may be one of the exceptions to PA treating people badly, I'm not sure.

Some writers feel they're a success if they see their book listed for sale on Amazon and if they buy a printed copy they can put on display. We all have different definitions of success, so maybe your friend is happy with this.

The only time I'd suggest pointing him to sites like this one is if he suspects something is wrong. Or if he's about to do something crazy like mortgage his house so he can pay a scammer.

Really. I'm kind of at a loss for what to do. I want to help him, but at this point I think it might be the best thing to just let him carry on with what he imagines is a good deal.
Exactly. As Chris said, maybe PA meets his goals for himself.

You can always talk to him about your experiences in writing, though. I found that when I spoke to PA authors on Facebook, some of them were genuinely surprised to hear that there was a category of presses other than the Big Five and PA. Education is the best way to combat scammers, and education doesn't necessarily mean telling people they've been scammed. It can be as subtle as discussing new developments in publishing, or your own experiences, or what you think of self-publishing, and so on.
 

ShaunHorton

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Well, I've talked to him a bit and I asked him what his goals were for his writing and he told me it would be nice to be able to support his family. I suggested self-publishing again, giving him my numbers for the past few months and he seemed really surprised and said it all sounded great.

I asked him how his works were doing and he said his publisher was working hard to market and get his most recent book out there. I asked how and he told me they put the book up on Kindle. After pressing him a bit more, I found out they charged him $65 for that honor. He never mentioned how his books were actually doing, but if I go by rankings, out of 5 books on Amazon, two have never sold a single copy (I'm guessing that's what it means when a book doesn't have a ranking.) two books haven't sold a copy in probably years. (Guessing because their rankings are over 12 million), and he has one book which probably hasn't sold a copy yet this year.

As his friend, I would really like to put the brakes on this, especially since he's getting close to having another book together and he's already getting excited over publishing it. (Though he hadn't gotten it under contract yet when I spoke to him.)

I was considering just suggesting he look up Atlanta Nights, see if that might get the point across a little slowly at his own pace.
 

Fruitbat

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So, he's done this several times. He surely realizes he hasn't made many sales, and also has access to google like everyone else.

My guess is he gets it, but prefers to pose as a successful published author rather than put in all the effort to try to earn that title in reality. Imo, this is not uncommon. It's why vanity presses have always been around and are named thusly. The people I've known like this (if it's how it looks to me) just get mad and don't listen when told what they don't want to hear, even when they asked for advice. I agree with the others, I'd leave it alone.

P.S. I just googled "Publish America" and along with the company site, many complaints popped up. I don't know how someone could not notice that, through five books with them. (?)
 
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Marian Perera

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I asked him how his works were doing and he said his publisher was working hard to market and get his most recent book out there.

If he has five books out, and if he's been with PA for years but still claims they're on his side, then as Fruitbat said, he probably knows the deal. He knows he'll never make enough to buy his family a meal, much less support them.

I was once discussing PA with an author whose debut novel had been released by them. He was very loyal, but admitted that his novel was overpriced and the Kindle version - which he'd paid for - was overpriced too. However, he felt he didn't have a choice other than PA, because it was either that or one of the Big 5, and he didn't have an agent.

I said this wasn't the case, and mentioned my own publisher - not a major house but very reputable. He asked for the names of some independent publishers, so I provided a list.

When he next responded, it was to say, "I checked out the names on your list. Thomas Nelson runs a vanity press. That's disappointing. Ellora's Cave was involved in a lawsuit against your publisher. That's disappointing too." And so on. He found something disappointing about every press on my list, and finished with claiming that they all had reason to discredit PA, so maybe they were all vanity presses too.

At that point I saw he wasn't interested in pursuing better publication options for his next book, only in justifying his choice to go with PA, so I ended the discussion. His second book has been released by PA now and it's as overpriced as the first, though unavailable in the Kindle format. Maybe he realized the $65 wasn't worth it.

But hopefully he's not disappointed.
 
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Sheryl Nantus

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Sometimes you just have to walk away.

It hurts, as a friend, to see someone going down the wrong path but as long as he's not putting his family on the street to keep going all you can do is just nod your head as he continues to give money to this "publisher".

Sorry.

:(
 

Barbara R.

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People believe what they want to believe. I know a guy who worked in publishing his whole life. When he retired, he wrote a novel and paid a vanity publisher to issue it; but he takes the greatest pride in calling himself a Published Author and insists that his vanity press is highly selective.

Hey, he's happy, so what do I care? (As long as I don't have to listen to him pitch his book.)
 

Filigree

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I found this same attitude from many 'authors' during my research into a couple of vanity / subsidy publishers a couple of years ago. The authors might not have done a lot of research on their own, or been scared off by the query process, or privately understood their books may not have been up to commercial publishing standards. These authors also tended to have a history of trying the same thing with different vanity and subsidy publishers.

They were still staunch cheerleaders for their publishers, even though most of those publishers did substandard editing, cover design, and little effective marketing. 'But they're so supportive!' say the authors on their social media pages.

You can't help people who are abetting their own victimization. I realized that, and came up with Filigree's Rule to remind myself to back off: 'Some authors deserve some publishers, and vice versa, and I'm not standing between them.'

It's heartless of me, and goes against all of my mentoring experience and instinct. I can only hope that most of the authors in question will discover true self-publishing, because that's all that will really impact their current publishers.
 

robjvargas

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Whenever I've talked someone out of being happy with whatever they've purchased or done, I've become the bad guy for doing so. That can kill a friendship, even if I was right.

So... ask your friend what they expect from a good publisher. Ask them if PA has done that for them. Maybe they will say yes. Maybe what they expect from a good publisher isn't good for a professional writer, but if they are happy, and they are getting what they expect from PA, then PA isn't scamming them.

All you can do is show your friend alternatives. But, like many rehab centers say, we can't help you until you want to be helped.
 

Arcadia Divine

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Normally I would give you advice on how to handle this, but I feel you shouldn't get involved and it's probably better to let this person regret his own decisions if he even will.
 

Marian Perera

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Maybe what they expect from a good publisher isn't good for a professional writer, but if they are happy, and they are getting what they expect from PA, then PA isn't scamming them.

Exactly.

Plus, remember Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman? After Biff's attempt at getting a great job falls through, Happy advises him: tell Dad you've got a lunch date with the boss, then come home and say the boss is thinking it over. And he'll think it over for the next couple of weeks (or as long as it takes for Willy to forget about it).

"But it'll go on forever!" Biff says.

"Dad is never so happy as when he's looking forward to something!" Happy points out.

So Shaun, maybe your friend is never so happy as when he's looking forward to publishing a book with PA, even if he knows nothing concrete will come of it.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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So Shaun, maybe your friend is never so happy as when he's looking forward to publishing a book with PA, even if he knows nothing concrete will come of it.

And there's no chance of rejection.

As we know, PA will not reject any manuscript as long as there's a chance they can make money off of the author - so your friend will never receive a rejection letter or any advice on how to improve his craft. No rejection, no revise-and-resubmit, no anything other than total acceptance.

And for some... that's what they want. They don't want to be told their work isn't perfect and ready to go to print.

As I said before - as long as he's not putting his family on the street or heading towards bankruptcy with his paying PA... there's not much else you can do.

:(
 

Marian Perera

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And for some... that's what they want.

With the additional cachet that the acceptance comes from America's Number One Traditional Publisher.

Yes, it's hokum. But if it's hokum he wants, can afford and knows the truth about - what more is there to be done?
 

AHunter3

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I think it's a massively huge mistake to treat people as damaged goods, as lacking insight into their real situation, etc etc, as a consequence of knowing that they have been given a psychiatric diagnosis.

First off, it's one of the nastiest and ugliest dehumanizing things you can do to a person. It's the ultimate indignity: "I am going to regard the statements that you make as static created by the electrical storm inside your brain. All of your behaviors and thoughts and feelings are symptoms".

Second, obtaining a psych dx is not so difficult. You can get one really easily. They dispense them like after-dinner mints nowadays. This is in large part because insurance companies will reimburse for therapeutic sessions if a diagnostic code is appended, whereas otherwise they often will not. It is also in large part because the pharmaceutical industry had done a lot to tout their cute little pillies as being as innocuous as after-dinner mints.

Mostly, though, because it simply isn't friendly or helpful to "worry" that your friend's comprehension of their own situation is badly awry. If you have a specific alternative interpretation of what they're interpreting to mean XYZ, then say so, express THAT to them, but, once having done so, stand back. Recognize that no one appointed you official freaking guardian of their best judgment. Steer your own damn canoe and let them steer theirs; you're 100% entitled to steer yours using your own best judgment and you would not really enjoy discerning that folks you thought of as friends were doubting your ability to form opinions and make judgments of things.
 

Fruitbat

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@AHunter- Jmho of course, but if I thought a friend was in a fragile emotional state and lacking in their reasoning capacity, I would definitely consider that when dealing with them.
 
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AHunter3

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Yeah, I suppose I'm on my psych-patients-rights soapbox. That happens a lot!

Fair enough... I think it's reasonable to take it into account in various ways. I'd imagine you get the gist of what I was saying and can give it the weight you think it deserves.
 

frimble3

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And, in my NSHO, it sounds like your friend has a pricey hobby. Unless he's using his rent money, or taking out loans, etc, to pay PA, is this much different than any other way of spending his free time?
He may not be making any money, but is this costing more than season's tickets to some pro sport? Or, a new boat, or RV or a big motorcycle or off-road vehicle?
He may dream of making enough to support his family. I know of people who are planning to do that with their lottery winnings. Or at least make a few bucks in a fantasy hockey league. Or, by using all those pricey power tools to start a little business.
If he's cool with what PA is doing for/to him, and it's doing no harm, let it go.
 

Gillhoughly

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There was an article in Publisher's Weekly about mainstream writers going hybrid, letting a publisher (in this case a true commercial house) handle the print book while retaining the e-rights for themselves. It's not for everyone, but I plan to try it on the next contract just to see what happens.

You could open a discussion on this. The stress is he can experiment with publishing the digital version of his next book first, also just to see what happens.

The advantage is he has full control, keeps 70% of the sale, and sets his own price in the sweet spot between .99 and 3.99. Oh--and NO COST. Kindle and the others don't charge a dime to upload a book and cover. PA can't compete with that. Real publishers can't compete with that.

PA has never been known to turn away a book that's been previously "published." They're happy to take sloppy seconds, so he won't hurt his chance of placing the same book with them later if he really wants that. Point out that all contracts are negotiable, so if he still wants to go with them, then he simply strikes out the parts of the contract that are to do with ebooks. If they refuse, then he can certainly do better elsewhere.

This can be introduced to him as "shop talk" and most writers, myself included, LOVE to talk shop. It's easier than actually *writing*. ;)

At no time do you mention PA's a scam. You talk as writer to writer.

If he's got his heart set on holding a print copy, then Createspace is another no cost alternative. Both it and Kindle put his book on Amazon. Point out other writers doing this; Lawrence Block, Lee Goldberg, J.A. Konrath & David Gerrold come to mind, I know there're others. He segues from being tied to a publisher to opening his own publishing operation.

If your friend thinks PA is the same as any other commercial house, then point him toward Konrath's blog. It's rather over the top, but some of the stories and guest blogs might persuade him to look at publishers in a different light and perhaps see the advantage of DIY.

Going indie and self publishing is far, FAR better than signing a book away to PA. While his earnings might be modest, they will be greater than anything PA's ever provided. It's clear he's not prepared to deal with a real publisher.

The main point is to skirt the whole "PA is E-vul" issue and let him work out that there's more than one path to publication and others are seeing success by going outside the mainstream. He's self employed! He has a business! It's in his own best interest to check out how to get better at it.

Here's an oldie but a goodie. http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2011/03/amanda-hocking-and-99-cent-kindle.html

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231476


http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2014/03/identity-and-writer.html Which has a strangely spot on post today with this in it:

1. Write a book.
2. Find an agent.
3. Find a publisher.
4. Sign whatever piece of shit contract they put in front of you, because you have no choice.


The last one is appropriate to PA in particular.

I'm thinking he is well aware of commercial publishers, but doesn't want to risk rejection. PA is his comfort zone. He knows they'll always love his work. But if he can see an alternative that works better -- while not attacking his comfort zone -- he might move away from them.
 
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Dhewco

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My problem is similar. I have an ex-brother-in-law who went with this company. He hasn't asked me to buy his book, but my sister has. I've read his work and it's not bad, but it needs work. (I'm sure mine does too, but I haven't went with PA, either)