Over or under explaining.

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zenjenn

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Oh jeez. Generalizations are actually useful. We don't ALWAYS have to include a disclaimer on everything. I've been in a lot of critique groups, I have children, and there are definitely preferences in certain demographics. While there are some people that have very eclectic reading tastes, there are also trends.

For example, romance serials are read primarily by women. That's a generalization. It's also true. Are there exceptions? Sure. But it's generally true. Thus the term, "generalization".

My point was, considering your target audience is wise when considering what level of exposition or descriptive detail you include in prose.
 
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MookyMcD

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If you look at her comparison of "adults who read epic fantasy" to "children or men who read only suspense", I think she was comparing types of readers, not saying that "children and men only read suspense" or that women "only love indulgent romance."
 

zenjenn

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Yes, Mooky. Thank you. :) Also I meant children as a separate category. Children generally have shorter attention spans and smaller vocabularies, so it's something an author should keep in mind when writing to that demographic.
 
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NeuroFizz

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Oh jeez. Generalizations are actually useful. We don't ALWAYS have to include a disclaimer on everything. I've been in a lot of critique groups, I have children, and there are definitely preferences in certain demographics. While there are some people that have very eclectic reading tastes, there are also trends.

For example, romance serials are read primarily by women. That's a generalization. It's also true. Are there exceptions? Sure. But it's generally true. Thus the term, "generalization".

My point was, considering your target audience is wise when considering what level of exposition or descriptive detail you include in prose.
See below.

If you look at her comparison of "adults who read epic fantasy" to "children or men who read only suspense", I think she was comparing types of readers, not saying that "children and men only read suspense" or that women "only love indulgent romance."
That was not my objection.

Original quote:
It also depends on your audience a little bit. Adults who read epic fantasy and women who love indulgence romance have a much higher tolerance for savoring well-written descriptive prose than, say, children or men who read only suspense.
If you had said that adults who read epic fantasy and women who love indulgence romance have a different expectation for the balance and emphasis on descriptive prose, I would have been in agreement, because this keeps the comments on the target audience, where you initiated it. When you address a tolerance for savoring well-written descriptive prose, that is an individual characteristic of each reader regardless of preferred genre. And to single out the readers of one specific genre as a lesser performer in this individual characteristic, is careless at best.

Readers of different genres likely have differing expectations for well-written descriptive prose in their stories, but I seriously doubt they have differing abilities to savor (or tolerances for savoring) well-written descriptive prose that can be so tightly genre-linked.
 
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baileycakes14

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Example of over-explaining: The Last of the Mohicans.

Seriously. EVERYTHING was as detailed as could possibly be, including people's fur hats. Absolutely ridiculous. But then, that was the style at the time, mostly.

I can't think of an example of an under-explaining author, simply because I think most people and publishers would rather have you over-explain than under-explain. BUT, an author who under-explains but does it in an amazing way, IMO, is Stephen King. He gives you just enough detail that you know what he's talking about, but you can fill in the blanks yourself, and I think that's what makes his horror hit home so hard. You can imagine something that looks frightening to you, rather than reading about something the author finds frightening.

When I edit, I find that I under-explain like crazy, so I usually end up adding a lot. But as far as finding a balance goes, I'm not sure. I would say that it's better to err on the side of over-explaining though.
 

Koulentis

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Someone once told me, "When you explain everything, you explain nothing." A student of that philosophy wouldn't describe every item, every action in meticulous detail. Instead they'd pick those few things that are needed to elevate the scene. Even better, picking those things that are of interest to the protagonist at that particular moment.

It's like looking at your hand. When you really examine your hand, the creases, the fingerprints your hand is in focus and the background become a bit fuzzy. Shift focus to an object in the background and your hand becomes a bit fuzzy.

Use explanation to focus the reader.
 

blacbird

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I almost never "explain" anything, from the standpoint of the writer. I might let a character explain something to another character, but otherwise I think explaining stuff is the worst possible violation of the "show, don't tell" advice.

I try damn hard to narrate stories. "Explaining" stuff always strikes me as explaining the reason a good joke is funny. The moment you explain it, it ceases to be funny.

caw
 

Koulentis

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Yes what blacbird said above, which much more concisely said what I was trying to get across. Let the characters focus on things and let "explanation" come from that.
 

Pushingfordream

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For your first editing pass, read the entire manuscript through as a reader would read it. Make marks in the margins for various types of edits needed (I use different colored pens and specific editing notations), but don't stop to make any of those changes. This will give you a feel for the flow of the story, the pacing, and the continuity of the scenes and chapters (among other things in the manuscript and in the story). See if that doesn't illuminate some of the issues you are worrying about--it just may show sections that need expansion or compression/slashing. Trust your reader gut and I'll bet there will be several critical places in the story where important editing needs jump out at you.

I'll second the suggestion of getting beta readers as well. You need fresh sets of eyes to provide the constructive criticism necessary to really improve the story and for you to improve in the craft. But in the meantime, see how your reader-self reacts to the complete package as it currently exists.

This is great advice. I think I will bookmark this thread so when I'm ready to edit my book again I can read this before hand.
 

empther

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From OP:

If you have some good (or bad) examples of over/under explaining authors

You'll remember The Firm, starring Tom Cruise as Mitch McDeere?

I read the book by John Grisham.
Early in the story, Mitch wants to photocopy some papers. But this is a law firm and security is important. Mitch had to go through a long series of security steps to get the copier to work. Grisham used up about two pages describing all these steps in infinite detail.
I thought, "Wow. This must be very important to the story."

It was never mentioned again! :rant: Apparently it was something that interested Grisham, but it had no point.

That was overexplaining a procedure. More commonly, the issue is how much to describe settings.
In To Kill A Mockingbird, Harper Lee spends much time describing the small Southern town in which the nine year old girl Scout lived. This was necessary because a small Southern town in the 1930s would be unknown to many readers, such as people in England and even Americans in Oregon or New York ( the book was published in 1960 ), but more importantly the whole point of the book was the environment's influence on Scout.

Sometimes the surrounding environment is not important. I just read Pride and Prejudice, and am now reading Sense and Sensibility. Jane Austen doesn't spend much time describing the countryside. Family dynamics are more important in influencing the main characters.

Sometimes the environment is unimportant. Let's say a main character spends time in Boston, New York, and London. Is it necessary to describe these places? Everybody already knows a lot about them. And, unless the main character is dragging his family along with him wherever he goes, even family dynamics aren't important, except in the sense that the main character is what the family made him when he was young ( but that's all over with! ;) no need to make more than brief references to that )
 

mrsmig

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Let's say a main character spends time in Boston, New York, and London. Is it necessary to describe these places? Everybody already knows a lot about them.

Where's that eye-roll smiley when you need it?
 

Wilde_at_heart

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Great and fun to read feedback, thank you very much.

Keeping an eye on the story, instead of "faux mahogany dressing tables" defiantly is the thing to do.

Will try to keep an eye on descriptions unrelated to the plot or which aren't conveying anything valuable about the characters.

Since you're a visual artist, perhaps think of a scene description or setting as your focal point. If you have too many at once or shift it around too much, you risk losing the reader.

ETA: As for the whole Boston, New York, and London being already familiar, I think it's pointless to describe the major tourist spots, but I also don't see the point in setting a story in such a place if you aren't conveying some particular neighbourhood. As a one-time Londoner, I find it a bit grating if it's mentioned only as a generic backdrop.

:ROFL: at MookyMcD's explanation though.
 
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empther

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I also don't see the point in setting a story in such a place if you aren't conveying some particular neighbourhood. As a one-time Londoner, I find it a bit grating if it's mentioned only as a generic backdrop.

Doesn't seem a problem to Sherlock Holmes fans.


CIA agent Bob: "Why Lisbon, Barley?"
Bartholomew "Barley" Scott Blair: "Why Langley, Bob?"
-- The Russia House
 
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mrsmig

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As for the whole Boston, New York, and London being already familiar, I think it's pointless to describe the major tourist spots, but I also don't see the point in setting a story in such a place if you aren't conveying some particular neighbourhood. As a one-time Londoner, I find it a bit grating if it's mentioned only as a generic backdrop.

Doesn't seem a problem to Sherlock Holmes fans.

Wait, what? Are you saying the Sherlock Holmes stories have a generic London backdrop? :gaah
 
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Laer Carroll

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My writing almost ALWAYS has disruptive description on the first round, and that's OK. Actually, I like it, because it means I have a clear vision. When I come back, I hone down what is there to the essentials. Whatever description I leave in is the best I have to offer.

Yes! Getting that clear vision, and keeping it, is vitally important, more important than stylistic issues. That’s the main job of movie directors and symphony conductors. It’s what separates the great from the merely competent, whose work might be technically correct but lifeless.
 

empther

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Wait, what? Are you saying the Sherlock Holmes stories have a generic London backdrop?


If you knew nothing about what London looks like, you still wouldn't after reading all the Holmes stories. It might as well be in India.
 

mrsmig

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If you knew nothing about what London looks like, you still wouldn't after reading all the Holmes stories. It might as well be in India.

Oh, please. From "A Scandal in Bohemia":

It was a quarter past six when we left Baker Street, and it still wanted ten minutes to the hour when we found ourselves in Serpentine Avenue. It was already dusk, and the lamps were just being lighted as we paced up and down in front of Briony Lodge, waiting for the coming of its occupant. The house was just such as I had pictured it from Sherlock Holmes’ succinct description, but the locality appeared to be less private than I expected. On the contrary, for a small street in a quiet neighbourhood, it was remarkably animated. There was a group of shabbily dressed men smoking and laughing in a corner, a scissors-grinder with his wheel, two guardsmen who were flirting with a nurse-girl, and several well-dressed young men who were lounging up and down with cigars in their mouths.

From "The Man With the Twisted Lip":

“Last Monday Mr. Neville St. Clair went into town rather earlier than usual, remarking before he started that he had two important commissions to perform, and that he would bring his little boy home a box of bricks. Now, by the merest chance, his wife received a telegram upon this same Monday, very shortly after his departure, to the effect that a small parcel of considerable value which she had been expecting was waiting for her at the offices of the Aberdeen Shipping Company. Now, if you are well up in your London, you will know that the office of the company is in Fresno Street, which branches out of Upper Swandam Lane, where you found me to-night. Mrs. St. Clair had her lunch, started for the City, did some shopping, proceeded to the company’s office, got her packet, and found herself at exactly 4:35 walking through Swandam Lane on her way back to the station. Have you followed me so far?”

From "The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet":

My friend rose lazily from his armchair and stood with his hands in the pockets of his dressing-gown, looking over my shoulder. It was a bright, crisp February morning, and the snow of the day before still lay deep upon the ground, shimmering brightly in the wintry sun. Down the centre of Baker Street it had been ploughed into a brown crumbly band by the traffic, but at either side and on the heaped-up edges of the foot-paths it still lay as white as when it fell. The grey pavement had been cleaned and scraped, but was still dangerously slippery, so that there were fewer passengers than usual. Indeed, from the direction of the Metropolitan Station no one was coming save the single gentleman whose eccentric conduct had drawn my attention.

That was from five minutes of casual search at Project Gutenberg.
 

Reziac

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Oh, please. From "A Scandal in Bohemia":
From "The Man With the Twisted Lip":
From "The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet":
<snippola>

What I notice from all of these, is that the location itself isn't described so much, rather it focuses on the people passing through, inhabiting, or using it -- a slippery walk that thins the crowd; an animated party full of street types; an ordinary business-and-warehouse district. This caused my images to be populated with live people (appropriately dressed) in a way that sticking to describing the surroundings probably wouldn't accomplish.
 

DKRisDKR

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I’m getting ready to make the first edit on my novel, but a dilemma keeps nibbling at me since I finished.

See, since I normally work as a concept artist, I have a tendency to vividly imagine and illustrate my worlds outside the realm of writing. Which I sometimes fear causes me to be too brief in explaining/describing things like: powers, characters and settings, suspecting it’s because of feeling extremely familiar to the subjects visually?


If you have some good (or bad) examples of over/under explaining authors, or just a personal preference for dealing with this issue during the first edit, I would love to hear it. :)


Thank you!

Most authors are familiar with a subject, as they are using it in the book. How familiar are the readers in your target audience? I let that be the driver for how much is explained.

For example, if most of you target readers don't know that a mizzen sail is - they would wonder what it was and why the character needed to make adjustments...

Good luck on your edit, it can be a chore...
 
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empther

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mrsmig, post 43

Fine. Now, can you paint a picture of London from those descriptions?

What do the buildings look like? How wide are the streets? What's in the streets?

Challenge ten painters in Nepal to paint London from that and you'll get ten different ideas, probably none like the actual city.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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If you knew nothing about what London looks like, you still wouldn't after reading all the Holmes stories. It might as well be in India.

Plenty of his stories were not set in London. However... from The Red Headed League:

We travelled by the Underground as far as Aldersgate; and a short walk took us to Saxe-Coburg Square, the scene of the singular story which we had listened to in the morning. It was a poky, little, shabby-genteel place, where four lines of dingy two-storied brick houses looked out into a small railed-in enclosure, where a lawn of weedy grass and a few clumps of faded laurel-bushes made a hard fight against a smoke-laden and uncongenial atmosphere. Three gilt balls and a brown board with "JABEZ WILSON" in white letters, upon a corner house, announced the place where our red-headed client carried on his business. Sherlock Holmes stopped in front of it with his head on one side and looked it all over, with his eyes shining brightly between puckered lids. Then he walked slowly up the street, and then down again to the corner, still looking keenly at the houses. Finally he returned to the pawnbroker's, and, having thumped vigorously upon the pavement with his stick two or three times, he went up to the door and knocked. It was instantly opened by a bright-looking, clean-shaven young fellow, who asked him to step in.

http://sherlock-holmes.classic-literature.co.uk/the-red-headed-league/ebook-page-07.asp
 
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mrsmig

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mrsmig, post 43

Fine. Now, can you paint a picture of London from those descriptions?

What do the buildings look like? How wide are the streets? What's in the streets?

Challenge ten painters in Nepal to paint London from that and you'll get ten different ideas, probably none like the actual city.

I get a clear picture of the London of Conan Doyle's time from these passages. I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse here or you genuinely believe that Conan Doyle didn't write descriptions, even after being given examples.
 

Reziac

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I get a clear picture of the London of Conan Doyle's time from these passages. I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse here or you genuinely believe that Conan Doyle didn't write descriptions, even after being given examples.

Or have different expectations of description. As I say above, having an idea what the people were doing (which to my eye was the thrust of ACD's descriptions) sufficed to describe the scene for me. But another person might need to have streets and buildings specifically described to produce the same image. Yet another person might 'see' a whole city from a single adjective.

Or, yet another reason why description is such a balancing act, always teetering between one reader's 'too much' and another's 'not enough'.
 

Katrina S. Forest

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Challenge ten painters in Nepal to paint London from that and you'll get ten different ideas, probably none like the actual city.

And that's a problem why?

I don't mean that to be snarky; I mean it in all sincerity. Many places described in books don't actually exist outside the author's head. Did the author succeed or fail based on whether or not a talented artist could portray the scene exactly as the author envisioned it? My feeling is no.

If I gave a description and it was sufficient to make you as a reader feel like that place was real, then I feel I did my job.
 
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