If in doubt, leave it out.

usuallycountingbats said:

... I obviously don't want to do anything offensive, but I have literally no frame of reference for knowing what could inadvertantly be considered offensive.

... But what about all the stuff I either think I know about but don't, or haven't even come across?

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That's what we're (those of us who post in POC) here for.

Just ask us.

If in doubt... ask someone.

Please don't just "leave it out." We need more diversity in fiction.

Ask multiple someones. Have two or three betas from that ethnic background.

To add to what the Garfinkle stated upthread, people aren't going to be bothered by the same shit. They experience similar things but don't respond the same way.

For example, my BIL is Korean. I asked him if it ever bothered him that people just assumed he was good at math and science. He said no, because it may have been a stereotype, but it was a good one. Haitians, say, have it worse. Plus, he says, he is good at math and science, so why should he care?

Contrast with, say, an Asian girl who sucked at math and science and instead was an artsy literary type, who not only had to deal with constant embarrassment because she defied the stereotype outside of her own choices. Add being female and the world of shit we tend to get when doing math and science stuff anyway, and add, just for the turd icing on a shit cake, parents whose most fervent desire is for their darling only child to become a doctor. That girl? Is going to have a seething cauldron of resentment about the issue by adolescence at the oldest.

So, yeah, common experiences - different lives and beliefs and attitudes. The ethnicity of the character will be a part of the identity but not define it, and will be secondary to the inner and outer worlds that you create.

usuallycountingbats said:

...I guess it's because he's just him, and I don't identify him by race, any more than I identify any of my white friends by race. He's just my partner in crime and empty calories

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See?

It's that ^ statement that lets me know that you aren't one of those people who ask questions of POC just out of some kind of wacky curiosity, but that you are sincerely seeking some understanding of a different culture or race.

... "this guy must be in the mafia, like us."

That was what some figured when the godfather movie came out.
But the director wasn't. He was just an average joe, who'd done
lots of research, as he once said on a tv show.

Bottomline: research goes a long way.
Do enough of it and you are good to go.

No need to shoot people with a tommy gun personally ;-)

Good luck! Diversity in writing is a good thing! I try to do this as well, and while I am white and grew up in a mostly white town, I now live and work in a much more diverse area, which is great for me, but I would definitely see where you are coming from with these questions. I'm happy and proud to say I live and work in a place which represents Americans of white, black, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Japanese, and I work at a trucking company, so we also get truck drivers from Canada and Mexico in here, including French-Canadian and Muslims from Canada. But there are still things I need to learn, and I think you are on the right track.

I think it's possible the "leave it out" may have been talking about particular words, descriptions, or stereotypes but either way I still agree with "when in doubt, ask" above all!

In this case I don't think you're over-thinking it. Without a frame of reference you probably don't realize what's offensive.

I've lived in several different countries and spent most of my adulthood living centrally in large, cosmopolitan cities - friends and romantic partners of every race, etc.

In my case, I'm more concerned with potentially *offending* other white people because in my experience, white, upper-middle-class university-educated people do on the whole seem to get offended more easily - some of it justified, some of it not. (I've also studied critical theory and am familiar with the 'power-relations' argument). As for conversations about 'privilege' - I generally give the subject wide berth. I've known people (invariably white) who get upset when someone uses 'black' as a descriptor much like in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dhjwWhlk5Q

But you are correct - if in doubt, leave it out.

I know what I can get away with among friends, relatives (a lot of people in my family 'inter-married') and so on, but I also know what would still really piss nearly all of them off (badly-rendered accents or really dated, lazy stereotypes rather than simply negative ones, for instance) . And of course, no group is ever homogeneous and what upsets one person person won't remotely bother someone else. However, 'research' behind a keyboard imo, will never cut it unless it involves actually knowing people from whatever group or even asking several of them outright. For instance, some people I've known say they'd prefer stereotypes over things they perceive as patronising.

This a good forum to explore though it's not that busy these days: http://www.yforum.com/ Any question, any subject of race, age, education level, religion, etc., answered bluntly.

I write everything with the pretext that anyone i personally know could read and enjoy it and not be offended. If i am in doubt i may even put a disclaimer to clarify fair play use or coincidental possibilities, all in good faith!

BM

This reminds me of a story I heard a few years back (I don't know if it's true, but it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this post).

Apparently they were interviewing a white football player who was good friends with one of his black teammates. When asked about their friendship, he said something along the lines of "Oh, he's my best friend. We get together every weekend for fried chicken and watermelon." Of course, the guy got reamed by the media despite the fact that:

1) He and his buddy really DID get together for fried chicken and watermelon every weekend.

2) He had no idea that what he had just said was offensive. He grew up in a community that embraced diversity and he had never heard that those particular food items were associated with stereotyping. (I can understand how this is possible. I didn't realize that "that racism stuff" still existed until I went away to college in another part of the country. I honestly believed racism had ended in the fifties.).

I get the impression that the OP is coming from a similar place. It's hard to avoid offending if you truely don't know what's offensive.

I'd second what others have said. Don't be afraid to write about POC. The first word in that acronym is "people" after all, and writers are in the business of writing about people. All people, not just the ones who are your own sex, age, and race. Just have your beta readers keep their eyes open for anything that may potentially be offensive and make corrections accordingly.

In my early to mid-20s, when I first started working in a diverse town after coming from a mostly white town, there was one black co-worker in particular who I hung out with quite a bit and he told a multi-racial girl who I dated at the time that I was "like a kid who doesn't know yet" when it comes to race. I had conversations like "What's the big deal about fried chicken and watermelon? Who DOESN'T like fried chicken and watermelon?" lol

Maybe the mind-boggling observation is the similarities we share!

I think it is important to remember that people not only their race. If your book doesn't take place in another country (one that isn't westernized) and your characters are not immigrants, most of the time your character could be any other race. It's just a matter of how you describe them. Especially if it isn't contemp.