#NALitChat Tackles Speculative Fiction and Gets It Somewhat Wrong

Roxxsmom

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What's the plot? Could it fall under fantasy of manners/mannerpunk?

Knowing the basic plot and setting is gonna help more than general genre-descriptors.




There is gunpowder and frontier fantasy. Is that similar to your conception of powderpunk?

I've never heard of fantasy of manners or mannerpunk. Are those actual subgenres that agents would market something as? I googled mannerpunk and it said something about being the fantasy version of a comedy of manners, like Jane Austin. I wouldn't classify it that way, though a certain amount of intrigue is involved. There is a cultural/religious conflict between two countries that's part of what's at stake, and some cloak and dagger stuff.

It's basically about a reluctant shadow mage--someone who's responsible for the emergence of a forbidden and addictive magic and has to decide how to protect the people he cares about from his mistakes without revealing what he is. But the only way he can defeat the people who are planning to use the knowledge he's unearthed to their own advantage is to use the magic he loathes. The overall theme is related to the question of how a well-intentioned person who's done something terrible can possibly redeem himself without getting into increasingly deeper doo doo.

Is powderpunk a thing?

I don't know. I have a friend who's published a novelette length story that he calls flintlock punk--it takes place in a sort of three musketeers/age of sail type fantasy setting. I'm pretty sure he made the term up, but I think it's kind of cool.
 
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Torgo

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"Flintlock Fantasy" is the current term of art being bandied about for the kind of fantasy that takes place in a pseudo-Napoleonic kind of world, rather than a medieval one.
 

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[...]There is a cultural/religious conflict between two countries that's part of what's at stake, and some cloak and dagger stuff.

It's basically about a reluctant shadow mage--someone who's responsible for the emergence of a forbidden and addictive magic and has to decide how to protect the people he cares about from his mistakes without revealing what he is. But the only way he can defeat the people who are planning to use the knowledge he's unearthed to their own advantage is to use the magic he loathes. The overall theme is related to the question of how a well-intentioned person who's done something terrible can possibly redeem himself without getting into increasingly deeper doo doo.

From the description you give, I'd call it Epic Fantasy. At least from a "What should I query this as?" standpoint that would be most correct (as far as I can see). It's also highly likely from the description you've given that is what it would be marketed as. (Unless it's "dark"/violent enough to fall into the Gritty/Grimdark Fantasy category.)
Epic Fantasy is used pretty broadly, and as a marketing category it encompasses a lot, I would even say most, of the Secondary World Fantasy out there.
 

Roxxsmom

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From the description you give, I'd call it Epic Fantasy. At least from a "What should I query this as?" standpoint that would be most correct (as far as I can see). It's also highly likely from the description you've given that is what it would be marketed as. (Unless it's "dark"/violent enough to fall into the Gritty/Grimdark Fantasy category.)
Epic Fantasy is used pretty broadly, and as a marketing category it encompasses a lot, I would even say most, of the Secondary World Fantasy out there.

Wow, I did not know that. I always thought Epic was limited to those long series that had a dozen focal characters (ala GRRM or Robert Jordan) where the fate of the world was at stake. I suppose mine could grow into something more epic, but I've been told it's a poor idea to query a first novel as epic, since that implies that the story isn't going to be stand alone, and it also puts you in that market for those "fat" fantasy novels, which of course a first-time writer cannot find an agent for.
 
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Wow, I did not know that. I always thought Epic was limited to those long series that had a dozen focal characters (ala GRRM or Robert Jordan) where the fate of the world was at stake. I suppose mine could grow into something more epic, but I've been told it's a poor idea to query a first novel as epic, since that implies that the story isn't going to be stand alone, and it also puts you in that market for those "fat" fantasy novels, which of course a first-time writer cannot find an agent for.


I disagree with him. Plenty of stuff is marketed as just plain fantasy when it doesn't fit epic conventions.
 

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Wow, I did not know that. I always thought Epic was limited to those long series that had a dozen focal characters (ala GRRM or Robert Jordan) where the fate of the world was at stake. I suppose mine could grow into something more epic, but I've been told it's a poor idea to query a first novel as epic, since that implies that the story isn't going to be stand alone, and it also puts you in that market for those "fat" fantasy novels, which of course a first-time writer cannot find an agent for.

Epic Fantasy doesn't have to start out as more than one novel, it's just the scale of the worldbuilding that usually lends itself to writing more than that.
A good thing to remember when it comes to Epic Fantasy and trilogy/series is that Tolkien never intended Lord of the Rings to be split up, he meant it to be one book. (I wonder what the Fantasy genre looks like in an alternate universe where LotR was never split up...)
 

Introversion

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(I wonder what the Fantasy genre looks like in an alternate universe where LotR was never split up...)

"A Song of Ice and Fire" weighs 50 pounds. The Collector's Edition comes with wheels and a retractable handle.

The large-type edition of "Harry Potter" comes with a slip-case that doubles as a steamer trunk.

"The Wheel of Time" ships with its own forklift.

"Twilight" was never written, and there was much rejoicing. :evil
 

Roxxsmom

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LoTR was intended to be one very long book, but yes, they split it up for marketing and distribution purposes. Epic length by the standards of its time, and of course it tied in with the Hobbit and with his Simarillion (which he couldn't publish until later). But I'd call LoTR as epic on its own, because you saw a large slice of Tolkien's world and its history in that one story, and of course the conflict had potentially world-ending stakes. Plus, the focus was on the end of an era.

I wouldn't call my world that way. I have a world (with a history, cultures, geography, biology and religions) that exists beyond the parameters of the current story. I think it's important for all writers to have a good feel for the world they're writing in, even for a short story. This allows you to have internal consistency, believable character motivations, and the ability to open those little windows that give the reader the feeling that this is taking place somewhere "real" and not just on a cardboard set that jiggles every time someone closes a door. But I only focus on a relatively small slice of my world in the novel I'm polishing up now. The next one will take some of my characters further afield and expand the conflict and stakes somewhat. Still not sure if it would cross the line into what I consider epic fantasy.

For the sake of argument, though, what is the definition of:

High Fantasy
Low Fantasy
Epic Fantasy
Sword and Sorcery
Heroic Fantasy
Adventure Fantasy
Steam Punk
Romantic Fantasy

That agents and editors use specifically? Also, how much do these categories overlap? I know that something can be both epic and high fantasy. But can something be both high fantasy and steampunk? How about epic and romantic?

The Encyclopedia of Fantasy defines high fantasy as: "Fantasies set in Otherworlds, specifically Secondary Worlds, and which deal with matters affecting the destiny of those worlds. [JC]"

Doesn't say anything about elevated language. By the above definition, my novel is possibly high fantasy (as matters dealing with the destiny of those worlds is rather vague. I mean, the price of tea can affect the destiny of a world)

But their definition of low fantasy is: "The introduction to The Fantastic Imagination (anth 1977) ed Robert H Boyer and Kenneth J Zahorski defines High Fantasy and implies LF as an antonymic description of fantasies not set in Secondary Worlds, nor elevated in their literary style."

which sort of implies, by default that high fantasy is elevated in literary style. So no F bombs allowed in HF? Or does elevated literary style mean it's literary fiction? If so, lots of novels most people consider HF (like Robert Jordan's books) would not be, since I don't think even his biggest fans would call his style literary.

I notice that the Encyclopedia of Fantasy is pretty out of date, so none of the authors I've been reading recently are on the list (I've been focusing on newer authors lately).
 
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LoTR was intended to be one very long book, but yes, they split it up for marketing and distribution purposes. Epic length by the standards of its time, and of course it tied in with the Hobbit and with his Simarillion (which he couldn't publish until later). But I'd call LoTR as epic on its own, because you saw a large slice of Tolkien's world and its history in that one story, and of course the conflict had potentially world-ending stakes. Plus, the focus was on the end of an era.

I wouldn't call my world that way. I have a world (with a history, cultures, geography, biology and religions) that exists beyond the parameters of the current story. I think it's important for all writers to have a good feel for the world they're writing in, even for a short story. This allows you to have internal consistency, believable character motivations, and the ability to open those little windows that give the reader the feeling that this is taking place somewhere "real" and not just on a cardboard set that jiggles every time someone closes a door. But I only focus on a relatively small slice of my world in the novel I'm polishing up now. The next one will take some of my characters further afield and expand the conflict and stakes somewhat. Still not sure if it would cross the line into what I consider epic fantasy.

For the sake of argument, though, what is the definition of:

High Fantasy
Low Fantasy
Epic Fantasy
Sword and Sorcery
Heroic Fantasy
Adventure Fantasy
Steam Punk
Romantic Fantasy


That agents and editors use specifically? Also, how much do these categories overlap? I know that something can be both epic and high fantasy. But can something be both high fantasy and steampunk? How about epic and romantic?

The Encyclopedia of Fantasy defines high fantasy as: "Fantasies set in Otherworlds, specifically Secondary Worlds, and which deal with matters affecting the destiny of those worlds. [JC]"

Doesn't say anything about elevated language. By the above definition, my novel is possibly high fantasy (as matters dealing with the destiny of those worlds is rather vague. I mean, the price of tea can affect the destiny of a world)

But their definition of low fantasy is: "The introduction to The Fantastic Imagination (anth 1977) ed Robert H Boyer and Kenneth J Zahorski defines High Fantasy and implies LF as an antonymic description of fantasies not set in Secondary Worlds, nor elevated in their literary style."

which sort of implies, by default that high fantasy is elevated in literary style. So no F bombs allowed in HF? Or does elevated literary style mean it's literary fiction? If so, lots of novels most people consider HF (like Robert Jordan's books) would not be, since I don't think even his biggest fans would call his style literary.

I notice that the Encyclopedia of Fantasy is pretty out of date, so none of the authors I've been reading recently are on the list (I've been focusing on newer authors lately).


If you give me five months, all my sun-genre posts will be officially published to my blog. ;)
(I'll have covered all the relevant genres in two months.)


To break things down a bit, steampunk is a high-priority label. It supersedes whether it's also high or epic or heroic fantasy.


Low fantasy is somewhat of a useless descriptor at this point, since the distinction it represents doesn't really exist anymore because originally high vs. low fantasy was a category distinction as opposed to a genre one, but now high fantasy has officially become a genre.

The distinction between Epic and High fantasy involves several tropes. First, High fantasy can have the scope of a single kingdom. It's the set of plots/character archetypes that defines it: It generally follows a hero's journey analogue, and employs tropes direct from Western European mythology, such as quests, mentors, gifts of the gods, etc. Whereas epic fantasy less commonly involves quests, mentors, and black vs. white morality. There is some overlap of course. Sword and sorcery differs from Epic and High Fantasy in the stakes involved--for example, the world is usually not at stake, and the character focuses on far more personal desires. There's also commonly a lower level of magic, and protags rarely have access to any of the magic in the world.

Adventure Fantasy is not really a coherent genre. But there are some adventure elements in much gaslight fantasy/steampunk fantasy.

Heroic fantasy has a great deal of overlap with S&S, but involves more high fantasy tropes, generally.

Romantic Fantasy is not really a genre...


It's somewhat more complicated than that, but that's the gist.