Is it bad form to save the love scene for last?

AngelaD · Apr 16, 2013

I've read lost of romance books, everything from bodice rippers to sweet YA but the one thing I noticed is that around mid-book there is some sort of consummating happening.
My contemporary new adult novel has a few kissing scenes throughout but the love scene doesn't happen until the end. Is this bad form?

CarrieAnn · Apr 16, 2013

That depends on your reasoning for the love scene. (Which isn't mandatory in contemporary NA, by the way.) Generally, these types of scenes happen a little earlier because they change something, i.e. a dynamic, a friendship, a specific situation, etc. You don't want it to come across as a gratuitous, end-of-the book firework display.

I hope this helps!

AngelaD · Apr 16, 2013

CarrieAnn said:
That depends on your reasoning for the love scene. (Which isn't mandatory in contemporary NA, by the way.) Generally, these types of scenes happen a little earlier because they change something, i.e. a dynamic, a friendship, a specific situation, etc. You don't want it to come across as a gratuitous, end-of-the book firework display.

I hope this helps!

LOL! Nothing better than "gratuitous" love scenes. And thank you for reading.

No the love scene just naturally happened at the end because like in most happy endings, they came together.

AngelaD · Apr 16, 2013

I should also mention it isn't an explicit love scene. It's mostly fade to black.

wonderplanned · Apr 16, 2013

In Romance I have read some books that did not include a consummation scene until the end, and I did sort of feel like it was a "gratuitous, end-of-the book firework display," as CarrieAnn puts it. I like the sexual tension to lead somewhere before the end. But I'm specifically talking about a hot romance, thick with sexual tension that has led me to believe the action is going to take place center stage. In that case, I get quite frustrated when the consummation scene takes too long to happen, or takes place off stage, as it were.

That said, I totally don't think consummation is necessary in NA and if it feels natural at the end, that is where it should go.

Katallina · Apr 16, 2013

Regardless of what kind of scene we are discussing, there are always two key things (in my opinion) that matter most:

(1) What does this particular story call for to be told to the best of your ability?

(2) What action(s), in whatever situation is giving you trouble, are most true to the characters that you have created?

I wouldn't want to get into a mindset where "Chapter 1 = this", "Chapter 5 = this" etc. I think that's kinda lazy on the part of the writer, and it weakens the potential impact of a story. I think, instead, that an author needs to figure out what the story they are telling needs, rather then trying to subscribe to any sort of preset conventions.

(A note of honesty? This is often easier said then done.

)

AngelaD · Apr 16, 2013

wonderplanned said:
In Romance I have read some books that did not include a consummation scene until the end, and I did sort of feel like it was a "gratuitous, end-of-the book firework display," as CarrieAnn puts it. I like the sexual tension to lead somewhere before the end. But I'm specifically talking about a hot romance, thick with sexual tension that has led me to believe the action is going to take place center stage. In that case, I get quite frustrated when the consummation scene takes too long to happen, or takes place off stage, as it were.

That said, I totally don't think consummation is necessary in NA and if it feels natural at the end, that is where it should go.

Thanks! Yes, it just flowed that way. I started second guessing the more I started looking at story structure with a lot of these romance type books.

AngelaD · Apr 16, 2013

Katallina said:
Regardless of what kind of scene we are discussing, there are always two key things (in my opinion) that matter most:

(1) What does this particular story call for to be told to the best of your ability?

(2) What action(s), in whatever situation is giving you trouble, are most true to the characters that you have created?

I wouldn't want to get into a mindset where "Chapter 1 = this", "Chapter 5 = this" etc. I think that's kinda lazy on the part of the writer, and it weakens the potential impact of a story. I think, instead, that an author needs to figure out what the story they are telling needs, rather then trying to subscribe to any sort of preset conventions.

(A note of honesty? This is often easier said then done. )

I didn't map out the story. I had an understanding of the characters and where I wanted to go. At one point I killed off the main love interest and I was completely sad and depressed for months. I went back and figured out a way to save her.
Totally crazy, I know but that's what happens when you listen to the voices in your head.

gcsalamon · Apr 17, 2013

I think you've gotten your answer, Angela, but just to put in my two cents, I will say this:

I consider myself a rather typical romance reader. That said, (as mentioned above) I'm waiting anxiously for the MCs to finally get together. For me, it's all about the sexual tension and that -at last- moment! If I have to wait until the end, I'm usually disappointed. And frustrated.

However, I totally agree that you should go with what feels right for your characters and the story, first and foremost.

gingerwoman · Apr 18, 2013

AngelaD said:
I should also mention it isn't an explicit love scene. It's mostly fade to black.

It sounds appropriate that it's fade to black because I think if the rest of the book was sweet and you suddenly had a full on sex scene at the end that would come across as awkward and hard to market, but a sweet NA with a sweet bedroom fade to black ending sounds ok.
I really want to read some NA but so far those books are still languishing on my tbr list so I don't know much about NA conventions.

Cathy C · Apr 18, 2013

I agree with gingerwoman. A sweet read that ends saucy would annoy the readers. But likewise, a sweet read that's interrupted in the middle with saucy would have the same effect. If it's sweet, that's perfectly fine. Lots of room for all sorts of heat in the genre.

gcsalamon · Apr 18, 2013

Yes, what they said is absolutely right

I should have also said yesterday, that although it may not be the majority (but then what do I know) many, many readers prefer the romance without the sex scenes. I know a few of those readers myself.

articshark · Apr 18, 2013

If the sex scene doesn't add anything, leave it out. Gratuitous sex is gratuitous sex in real life and in fiction. Most readers are smart enough to figure this out. Also, if you're not comfortable writing the sex scene, it will come out. Trust me. There is nothing worse than reading about bad sex, well maybe having bad sex. lol

What gcslamon said is true. Some readers don't like sex in books. Some readers really like sex in books. Write how you want. Don't pander to either group. However you write your book, if it is good, people will read it. Don't muck that up with unnecessary sex. On the other hand, if the sex ADDS to the story, don't leave it out.

job · Apr 20, 2013

You've got a collection of wonderful, thoughtful responses here. I almost hate to add anything.

But let me talk about the structure of the ending of a book.

Romance books have a conflict, (often two conflicts -- one in the outer world, one in an inner, emotional world,) that keep the H&H from their happy ending. When we resolve the conflict/s, it's the end of the story. In plottingspeak, the scene where the conflicts come to a final, explosive resolution is the climax or denouement.

To get a sense of how denouement works, pick thirty books off your keeper shelf. You know what the conflict/s are in each of these. Flip to the tail end and work your way backwards till you come to the moment these conflicts are resolved.
That's the denouement scene.
What does the author put in after that denouement?

What we generally get after the denouement is an 'all's well' scene or two -- a return to normalcy, a tying up of any bits that weren't clear before, an epilog to show a happy future. And it's short, because the reader is ready to put the book down with a happy sigh and go fix a pot of tea.

In movies, we see denouement and falling-off ending very clearly.
When Luke blows up the Death Star, the next scene is a set-piece of him getting a medal. When the Disney Prince battles the evil sorceress and wins, the next scene is H&H riding off into the sunset.

In straight Romance, a 'unique and detailed consummation happening onstage' is a Big Deal Scene. We expect emotional consequences of the First Sex Act. We expect plot results. We want to know what happens afterwards. We are enthralled by it.

This emotional impact, this expectation of fallout and change, the sheer story 'size' of such a scene -- make it suited to the onrushing torrent of the main plotline. But such a Great White Shark of a scene doesn't fit well into the little spray puddle that is the plot space after the denouement.

AngelaD · Apr 21, 2013

gingerwoman said:
It sounds appropriate that it's fade to black because I think if the rest of the book was sweet and you suddenly had a full on sex scene at the end that would come across as awkward and hard to market, but a sweet NA with a sweet bedroom fade to black ending sounds ok.
I really want to read some NA but so far those books are still languishing on my tbr list so I don't know much about NA conventions.

I've read plenty of sexy NA but this one falls in the sweet category (as far as the sex goes) and it just felt right to have the love scene at the end, showing the passion just not the sex.

AngelaD · Apr 21, 2013

job said:
You've got a collection of wonderful, thoughtful responses here. I almost hate to add anything.

But let me talk about the structure of the ending of a book.

Romance books have a conflict, (often two conflicts -- one in the outer world, one in an inner, emotional world,) that keep the H&H from their happy ending. When we resolve the conflict/s, it's the end of the story. In plottingspeak, the scene where the conflicts come to a final, explosive resolution is the climax or denouement.

To get a sense of how denouement works, pick thirty books off your keeper shelf. You know what the conflict/s are in each of these. Flip to the tail end and work your way backwards till you come to the moment these conflicts are resolved.
That's the denouement scene.
What does the author put in after that denouement?

What we generally get after the denouement is an 'all's well' scene or two -- a return to normalcy, a tying up of any bits that weren't clear before, an epilog to show a happy future. And it's short, because the reader is ready to put the book down with a happy sigh and go fix a pot of tea.

In movies, we see denouement and falling-off ending very clearly.
When Luke blows up the Death Star, the next scene is a set-piece of him getting a medal. When the Disney Prince battles the evil sorceress and wins, the next scene is H&H riding off into the sunset.

In straight Romance, a 'unique and detailed consummation happening onstage' is a Big Deal Scene. We expect emotional consequences of the First Sex Act. We expect plot results. We want to know what happens afterwards. We are enthralled by it.

This emotional impact, this expectation of fallout and change, the sheer story 'size' of such a scene -- make it suited to the onrushing torrent of the main plotline. But such a Great White Shark of a scene doesn't fit well into the little spray puddle that is the plot space after the denouement.

Thanks for adding your expertise Job! The love scene isn't the final scene since there are loose ends to tie but it is the denouement.

AngelaD · Apr 21, 2013

I liked how Nicolas Sparks handled the love scene in "Dear John" which is sweet and powerful which is how I wanted to show in my story as well which was keeping true to the sweetness of the relationship.

job · Apr 21, 2013

AngelaD said:
The love scene isn't the final scene since there are loose ends to tie but it is the denouement.

Naming aspects of plot structure is a bunch of technical malarkey, of course. We only do it so we can talk about story in an exact and specific way.

The 'denouement' solves the Big Central Problem the H&H have been working on since Chapter Three.

To discover the Central Problem we look at -- "What motivates action?"

On most pages of a manuscript, we might see the protagonists undertaking action which
-- investigates problems at her father's law firm;
-- deals with the problem of the hero seeming to be a cocaine dealer;
--- helps solve a murder;
--- shows the heroine having no trust in men.

The denouement could
-- save the law firm;
-- reveal the hero is an undercover cop instead of a cocaine dealer;
-- name the murderer;
-- give us the moment the heroine learns to trust the hero.

What motivates the action in your manuscript?

Now one telltale for the denouement is that the story is unfinished and unsatisfactory without it. When you ask whether you should leave the sex scene out, this is a clue the sex scene may not be the denouement.

One thought -- does the major scene just before the Sex Onstage scene, solve the Central Problem of the story?

AngelaD · May 1, 2013

job said:
One thought -- does the major scene just before the Sex Onstage scene, solve the Central Problem of the story?

Yes, it does but there has been this build up and tension throughout. The love scene (even fading to black) needs to happen for there to be resolution.

AngelaD · May 1, 2013

I posted the first chapter for review if anyone is interested. Contemporary New Adult - 1st chapter critique

Is it bad form to save the love scene for last?

AngelaD

CarrieAnn

AngelaD

AngelaD

wonderplanned

Katallina

AngelaD

AngelaD

gcsalamon

Gina

gingerwoman

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

gcsalamon

Gina

articshark

shoes are like crack

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

AngelaD

AngelaD

AngelaD

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

AngelaD

AngelaD