Avoiding stereotypical names?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
460
Location
United States
This is something I've had trouble with at times, and I could use some advice.

First, in general, what are some good methods for choosing names for characters from cultures or ethnicities whose names you aren't that familiar with? For example, I have a few Chinese and Indian characters, and while they have Western first names, I worry about choosing surnames that are common, but won't come across as stereotypical or cliched.

I also have a specific question. I really like the name Latoya, and I wanted to give it to an African American character I have. It feels like it fits her, and it seems like a plausible enough name for her--she would have been born in the '80s when it was popular and Latoya Jackson was famous. But I worry that giving her a typically African American name might make her seem stereotypical, especially since there aren't a lot of other POC characters in the story. But purposely avoiding African American names also makes me a little uncomfortable. Where do you see the line between realism and being stereotypical?

I really appreciate input on this. I try to be sensitive, and welcome advice.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
My feeling (with the usual disclaimer that POC aren't a monolith, so, y'know, others may differ :) ) about stereotypical-sounding names is the same as my feeling about most things that might fall into the realm of stereotype -- that you just don't want to ALWAYS do one thing or the other. If you have a diversity of African-American characters, and some of them have names that code as "Black" and others don't, and they're all well-realized three-dimensional characters, then I think you're probably fine. Kind of like if you have a bunch of Asian characters who are ALL good at math versus having a diversity where some of them are good at math and some aren't; in the latter case the ones who are good at math won't seem like stereotypes.

In my own writing I've tried to go the mixed route with naming. And it's informed by, and informs, the characters -- for instance, "Black-sounding" names have a lower response rate when people are applying for jobs, which one of my characters and his parents had to think about when he was thinking about changing his surname for Story Reasons, particularly since he had a "Black-sounding" first name. I think about whether my characters who move from other countries would adopt an Anglo-sounding name or not, and how a character changing her name to a Western one would affect her family emotionally, stuff like that.

Anyway.

The question of how to choose names from a language that isn't your own is a harder one. I've seen writers taken to task for accidentally mixing two cultures (for instance, a first name from region/religion that's different from the one the last name comes from). I've also seen writers reamed for getting naming conventions wrong (especially in complicated languages like Russian). Sometimes I cheat and pick a name I've heard in real life, but I'm so picky about my names that often I find myself looking at long lists on the Internet and feeling unsure whether I'm okay choosing a surname I've never heard of. It's something I'm still figuring out, but I have the feeling this is where checking in communities like this with people who actually speak the language can be very useful.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
I should also add -- in my experience, if your characters are whole well-rounded people, readers are less likely to worry about the names. But if you step on other problematic tropes, people will start to assume insensitivity in your naming choices even if they otherwise wouldn't have bothered them. So: Good characters first and foremost. :)

Do you feel like posting some of the Chinese/Indian names you're considering here? I'd be happy to try giving you some feedback, and probably other people would, too.
 

Lavern08

Sit Down, and Shut Up!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
21,790
Reaction score
7,436
Location
7th Heaven
... I really like the name Latoya, and I wanted to give it to an African American character I have. It feels like it fits her, and it seems like a plausible enough name for her--she would have been born in the '80s when it was popular and Latoya Jackson was famous...

I wouldn't have a problem with her being named Latoya for the reasons you stated above.

However, if she also wore her hair in braids, big hoop earrings, was unemployed and had a sassy attitude and a kid out of wedlock, I'd put the book down immediately. ;)
 

Rachel Udin

Banned
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
133
Location
USA... sometimes.
Website
www.racheludin.com
I just wanted to heads up that some Chinese surnames are also shared in other countries. Despite that, you can find somes that are uniquely Chinese. Or just compensate by flat out saying it. (Especially with the rude comment, "What are you?" <-- These days I usually say, "Human, and you?" which progresses to, "No I mean where are you from?"--> "The United States." I get pithier as I get older. But you can drop in thoughts between that too...)
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
This is something I've had trouble with at times, and I could use some advice.

First, in general, what are some good methods for choosing names for characters from cultures or ethnicities whose names you aren't that familiar with? For example, I have a few Chinese and Indian characters, and while they have Western first names, I worry about choosing surnames that are common, but won't come across as stereotypical or cliched.

.


Be careful with Indian surnames. They all mean something, and denote a region, caste, profession etc. OK, most Western readers won't be aware of the significance but if you want to be authentic, take care.
I had an Indian read my first novel just to make sure I hadn't made a huge name-gaffe.
 

calieber

Couth barbarian
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
787
Reaction score
58
Location
BK.NY.US
Be careful with Indian surnames. They all mean something, and denote a region, caste, profession etc. OK, most Western readers won't be aware of the significance but if you want to be authentic, take care.
I had an Indian read my first novel just to make sure I hadn't made a huge name-gaffe.

Had an Indian-American character. Picked a name from Wikipedia on the basis of euphony, then made sure that what the name said about him, in terms of background and origin, was consistent with his characterization. But he was not a major presence in the book, so very little about him was set in stone in any case.
 

Little Ming

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
3,001
Reaction score
753
... (Especially with the rude comment, "What are you?" <-- These days I usually say, "Human, and you?" which progresses to, "No I mean where are you from?"--> "The United States." I get pithier as I get older. But you can drop in thoughts between that too...)

:roll:

Sorry, but I've had the same things happen to me all the time.

Someone once flat out asked me if I would ever go back to my country. (And he was sincerely trying to be nice/start a conversation)

You mean the country that we are in right now? (USA)

No, I mean where you're originally from.

You mean here?

No, I mean where you were born.

You mean HERE?

...

We didn't talk much after that.

***

As for the Chinese surnames, at one point I knew five or six different, unrelated people with the surname Wong/Huang. And I'm not even in a place with many Chinese people. :Shrug:
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
I just wanted to heads up that some Chinese surnames are also shared in other countries. Despite that, you can find somes that are uniquely Chinese. Or just compensate by flat out saying it. (Especially with the rude comment, "What are you?" <-- These days I usually say, "Human, and you?" which progresses to, "No I mean where are you from?"--> "The United States." I get pithier as I get older. But you can drop in thoughts between that too...)

My father used to respond to the "Where are you FROM?" rudeness by saying, "From my MOTHER!"

:D
 

LJD

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
4,226
Reaction score
525
I wouldn't have a problem with her being named Latoya for the reasons you stated above.

However, if she also wore her hair in braids, big hoop earrings, was unemployed and had a sassy attitude and a kid out of wedlock, I'd put the book down immediately. ;)

Yeah, this.


I just wanted to heads up that some Chinese surnames are also shared in other countries. Despite that, you can find somes that are uniquely Chinese. Or just compensate by flat out saying it. (Especially with the rude comment, "What are you?" <-- These days I usually say, "Human, and you?" which progresses to, "No I mean where are you from?"--> "The United States." I get pithier as I get older. But you can drop in thoughts between that too...)

When I say I'm from Canada, the conversation usually progresses one of two ways:

1. "Where are you really from?"
(seriously? where am I really from?)

2. "Where are your parents from?"
"They were born in Canada." <-- which tends to throw people off despite being true
 

Rachel Udin

Banned
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
133
Location
USA... sometimes.
Website
www.racheludin.com
Yeah, this.




When I say I'm from Canada, the conversation usually progresses one of two ways:

1. "Where are you really from?"
(seriously? where am I really from?)

2. "Where are your parents from?"
"They were born in Canada." <-- which tends to throw people off despite being true
No disrespect, but I've gotten a sharper answer to the "Where are you *really* from?" So I say, "Africa, because genetics says we all come from Africa. Though if you believe in the Bible, it's probably the Tigris and the Euphrates. (That's in Iran, you know.)" Or how Anthropology really pays off. It works, because I don't even look close to African. I answer the same to "What is your heritage?"

Which usually gets them either thinking or really pissed. Pissed off because they suddenly realize they are related to OMG African people or even OMG Iranian people. (In which case screw 'em let them ferment in their racism.) Or thinking about human nature, which is always an A++ in my book. Mostly people default to the second one. On the occasion they go towards the first, they usually realize what I pulled on them, and shush anyway.

It gets funnier when they assume "Udin" which is Russian must be Japanese (or something). So they look at me even more confused. (It's such a Jewish name... even the surname pretty much means "Jew".)

Which is why sometimes straight saying the person's heritage helps when it's set on Earth. Internal dialogue would basically go, "Ah, they want to me to say X Heritage."

I screw with people when they ask such questions. Probably a habit from adults and kids trying to be invasive with their questions about adoption. Usually goes better if they realize their own stupidity than me going and trying to carefully explain to them why it's offensive.
 

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
460
Location
United States
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! I think I'm going to stick with Latoya for now. I have time to change it down the line if I decide it'd be best.

Do you feel like posting some of the Chinese/Indian names you're considering here? I'd be happy to try giving you some feedback, and probably other people would, too.

Well, I don't have any Indian characters at the moment, but I have a Chinese character I want to name. I was originally thinking of giving her the surname Chou, but according to Wikipedia, it's a romanized version of Zhou or Cao, and I'm not sure I understand what that means. Would Zhou or Cao be better? Or is Chou okay?
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Rachel Udin said:
I screw with people when they ask such questions. Probably a habit from adults and kids trying to be invasive with their questions about adoption. Usually goes better if they realize their own stupidity than me going and trying to carefully explain to them why it's offensive.
Ha, I like it.

I work freelance, and I'm often working with a new set of dozens of people every week. In the process of small talk as I meet all these new people, I always get asked the exact. same. questions. Over and over again. Two of which are: what is your ethnicity? and, where does your name come from? (I go by an unusual first name.)

I get it that people are looking for topics of conversation for small talk when we're working together and don't know each other that well, and they're not asking in a manner that's offensive (to me* :)), but I think white people sometimes don't realize just how often we get asked this stuff. After a while I feel like I should start printing up pamphlets! ("Here are your preprinted answers to where my name comes from and what my ethnic heritage is. What, you thought you were the first person to ask?" :D)

* Not trying to say other people shouldn't be frustrated/angered/offended by types of these questions, of course.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Well, I don't have any Indian characters at the moment, but I have a Chinese character I want to name. I was originally thinking of giving her the surname Chou, but according to Wikipedia, it's a romanized version of Zhou or Cao, and I'm not sure I understand what that means. Would Zhou or Cao be better? Or is Chou okay?

Mandarin Chinese has a standard romanization (the way it's written in English letters). It's called pinyin. There are a few different systems other than the current official one (for instance, "Peking" is based on an old system for writing the characters for "Beijing" but should have the same pronunciation!), but there IS a current standard way of writing a Chinese pronunciation in English.

So, what Wikipedia means is that "Chou" is not an actual Chinese name in the sense that it doesn't correspond to the standard pinyin for any actual Chinese surname -- i.e., it's a nonstandard romanization for a surname that has a different *standard* pinyin. I just checked Mandarin Tools (super useful website), and it looks like Chou is actually a surname (this one: 丑), but considering what your research turned up, it's probably a rarer one. What Wikipedia probably means is that usually when the surname Chou is seen in the West, it's a nonstandard phonetic for the more common surnames Zhou (周) or Cao (曹).

Is it okay to have a nonstandard romanization? Sure -- a number of Asian families do. But it might say something about the family (and very anecdotally, I feel like more recent immigrants tend to use the standard pinyin romanizations, whereas families who emigrated many years ago are more likely to use older systems or nonstandard romanizations).

Also, the family may or may not choose to pronounce their name correctly or completely Westernize it. I knew of someone once who not only insisted people pronounce her name with the right phonetics, but the right *tone* (Chinese is a tonal language, so every word has both a phonetic pronunciation and a tonal pronunciation, and native Chinese speakers literally will not understand you if you say the right phonetic but the wrong tone! That's probably more than you need for this question, though :)). Anyway: The Mandarin pronunciation of "Chou" would be similar to "Cho" (NOT "chow"), the pronunciation of "Zhou" would be something like "Jo" and the pronunciation of "Cao" would be something like "Tsow." In case the pronunciation of the names affects the naming you want to do. :) (Incidentally, however, sometimes people Westernize the pronunciation of their names -- the surname "Wang" is the pinyin standard for the surname pronounced "wong," but a lot of people who have the name pronounce it to rhyme with "bang." Same with "Kang" and "Huang" -- they should be pronounced "kong" and "hwong.")

Funny story about nonstandard romanizations: J.K. Rowling pretty much made up Cho Chang's name out of whole cloth. Very interesting breakdown of how the translators addressed it here: http://www.cjvlang.com/Hpotter/names/matesct.html (scroll down). As you can see, they assumed Rowling used "Chang" as a nonstandard romanization of "Zhang," and went to a lot of effort to find a girl's name remotely similar to "Cho."

Okay, that was probably a lot more than you wanted to know!

tl;dr: I think "Chou" is fine, but now you know what choices you're making about what actual surname it is (what character) and how the family pronounces it. :)

Oh, and p.s. -- Cantonese pinyin is again different. So if your character's family is from Canton or Hong Kong, nothing I said above is right. Woohoo!

p.p.s. -- And there are even other local topolects aaaaall over China that might spawn other names and other romanizations. But now I'm really going on for too long!

Background: I'm not fluent, but I studied Chinese for quite a few years and have traveled/taught in China.
 

AKyber36

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
231
Reaction score
14
Location
USA
To tack onto slhuang's informative post, sometimes the romanization of Chinese names can also pinpoint if the person's family hailed from the mainland or Taiwan. For a personal example, my last name is Koo. One of my aunts from my father's side is named Gu. Same written character in Chinese and pronounced the same, but it looks different romanized, right?

Apparently, Koo makes it obvious that my dad hailed from Taiwan - he grew up there from the age of 11 after leaving the mainland before the Cultural Revolution started - and Gu is mainland.

As another interesting note, some names even denote the person's Chinese dialect. The surname Kwok might give you a hint that they probably speak Cantonese (which my friend from years ago did).

As for most common Chinese names (aka the Smiths of the Chinese world): Wang/Wong, Lee/Li, Zhang/Chang, and Lin. This Wikipedia article actually goes into great detail about the top Chinese surnames: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_Chinese_surnames
 

Rachel Udin

Banned
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
133
Location
USA... sometimes.
Website
www.racheludin.com
A brief note on the Korean side of Cho Chang... there is no freaking way it is Korean either.

According to the Wikipedia it was supposed to refer to: 惆怅 which if one looks it up is meaning melancholy/depression. Which would give it the pinyin: chóu​chàng (Second tone and fourth tone)

But it's not a real name. (*shakes fist*) Is it too much to beg people to use real names when it comes to characters that don't share your culture? You can still do puns, if you put in the effort. I swear. <-- a little ranty.

Zhang will turn up 100% Chinese. Lin probably also will, though I vaguely remember that it's used in some South Asian countries.

Wang and Lee/Li/Yi (Pronounced short "ee") are also used in Korea, toneless though.

And it won't look Japanese--even remotely. (the construction is very different for names in Japan)

When people write out Chinese names in English in fiction I've seen Chinese writers drop the pinyin and hint at the name meaning when talking about writing the characters. Since that's the convention, I usually follow that (for Chinese, Korean and Japanese characters). I find the name meaning and the Chinese characters for the name, and then if it's an issue, I give the name meaning.

It's definitely useful to have it around. Every character I do a work up on their names for.

Some immigrants also will give a native name to their children, though it doesn't appear on the birth certificate. Usually depends on the relationship the parents had with the country of origin.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
A brief note on the Korean side of Cho Chang... there is no freaking way it is Korean either.

Oh, fascinating info! Thanks, Rachel!

Yeah, I agree Ms. Rowling could have done her pun while still using a real name. To be fair I guess she did assign fake names to Western characters for the puns (Albus, Draco, etc.), so it falls into the category of, "if she had other Asian characters with real names it wouldn't be an issue, but since Cho's the only one it feels like she just didn't bother" for me.

Some immigrants also will give a native name to their children, though it doesn't appear on the birth certificate. Usually depends on the relationship the parents had with the country of origin.
I have a Western first name and a native middle name, which I consider to be my native name. Other children of immigrants I know have this setup also, or have a native first name and a Western middle name, with the intention that they go by the Western middle name here in America.
 

Rachel Udin

Banned
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
1,514
Reaction score
133
Location
USA... sometimes.
Website
www.racheludin.com

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com

Super Mech Pilot

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Ha, I like it.

I work freelance, and I'm often working with a new set of dozens of people every week. In the process of small talk as I meet all these new people, I always get asked the exact. same. questions. Over and over again. Two of which are: what is your ethnicity? and, where does your name come from? (I go by an unusual first name.)

I get it that people are looking for topics of conversation for small talk when we're working together and don't know each other that well, and they're not asking in a manner that's offensive (to me* :)), but I think white people sometimes don't realize just how often we get asked this stuff. After a while I feel like I should start printing up pamphlets! ("Here are your preprinted answers to where my name comes from and what my ethnic heritage is. What, you thought you were the first person to ask?" :D)

* Not trying to say other people shouldn't be frustrated/angered/offended by types of these questions, of course.
really honestly I see what your saying but you know alot of white people ask each other were they're from it doesn't take people very long to realize I'm not from their state. But really when people ask that I don't think most people do it to be rude, I've been curious as to wether or not African Americans ever even think about Africa or wonder what it's like over their because I was born and raised in West Virgina never set foot in England but I've wondered what England was like because my grandmother was British.
 

RemaCaracappa

Wouldn't you like to know?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
341
Reaction score
28
Location
In my own little world but its ok, they know me he
really honestly I see what your saying but you know alot of white people ask each other were they're from it doesn't take people very long to realize I'm not from their state. But really when people ask that I don't think most people do it to be rude, I've been curious as to wether or not African Americans ever even think about Africa or wonder what it's like over their because I was born and raised in West Virgina never set foot in England but I've wondered what England was like because my grandmother was British.

I think this is true too. I'm a white girl, I get asked occasionally what my ancestry is. I'm of Sicilian, English, Lithuanian and Polish descent with an English last name. On the occasion that I am asked, I've often been given a reason- most commonly I hear something like "Well, I'm just curious because you mostly look Italian, but you're really pale, and I don't think I've ever seen any Italians with eyes like yours!" (My eyes are extremely dark green, they usually show up black in photos)

Between this thread and having recently picked a nom de plume for some of my writing (I used a family name) I had to go and look up the regionality of the name that I picked. I knew that there are very, very few people in the US with the last name- few enough that if you run into one, you can reasonably bet a small agricultural establishment that we're related- and that it's even quite uncommon in its native land, mostly limited to one specific place. Turns out, it's even less common than I thought, with only about 100 existing families in that country with the name and 95 of those being in one very small area.

Huh.

I hope this isn't taken as a thread jacking, hehe, but it was intended a curious extension of the part of conversation of how a name can sometimes be so telling as to where one, or one's family is from, to a far more specific degree than just what country, or what language.

And I most definitely do wonder what those countries are like, and what they were like back in the day. I wonder less about England, but definitely a good bit about Sicily, Poland and Lithuania
 

akaria

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Messages
579
Reaction score
61
Location
Brooklyn represent!
Honestly? I'd love a MC named LaToya or Latoya or whatever "Black sounding name". As long as she's not some stereotype that we've all seen on Law & Order reruns fifteen bazillion times. I'd love to see her save the world and get the hot vampire/werewolf/fae/angel/djinn/mermaid, etc (I write paranormal romance so that's where my brain always goes ;))

I'm interested in the discussion about Chinese surnames because I'm currently writing a character who's American but her parents are from Cuba. Mother is Cuban. Father is Chinese. What would be an appropriate name for someone from this region?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.