Confused by Critique Advice

redwriter99 · Nov 19, 2012

Hello All,

I was recently lucky enough to have some one on one time with an agent. She was complimentary of my pacing and dialogue, and overall it was a pretty decent exchange.

However I was surprised and somewhat confused by something she said. She told me that I was obviously aware of the 'show, don't tell' rule, but sometimes I might want to break it.

She had given me some guidance about improving on the immediacy of a response (for instance when a character first learns something), i.e. like falling out a chair while dialogue is still going on, tears welling up while still speaking, etc. But I just couldn't understand when I would tell and not show.

Unfortunately time ended before I could grasp what she was saying. Any one have any advise out there for me?

I meticulously worked over my ms with several betas carving all the 'telling' out, but now I'm confused? Should I have left some in?

I have another request form an agent but of course, now I'm questioning my ms (just paranoid maybe?).

thanks!

DavidBrett · Nov 19, 2012

Sometimes the simplest path is the best - in your merciless crusade to eradicate all telling, did you sometimes do so by sacrificing the obvious for the long-winded?

For instance, did you say something like 'John was gigantic, so tall some would say he had a team of masons and carpenters that would run on ahead of him, making every doorway taller just so he didn't have to stoop down when he entered', when - in this case, at least - it's perfectly acceptable to tell the reader 'John was a giant of a man.' ?

Dave

veinglory · Nov 19, 2012

In the end you should be informed by the rules, not their slave. Read the passage through. If you still like it, keep it.

DavidBrett · Nov 19, 2012

veinglory said:
In the end you should be informed by the rules, not their slave. Read the passage through. If you still like it, keep it.

This, too - my YA WIP starts with the weather, one of fiction's Big No-No's. But, you know what? It's a freak storm, with tanks and lizardmen falling from the sky... So I wouldn't have it any other way.

In the end, it's YOUR book; write it however feels most naturally to YOU. It's that unique voice that will help you snag an agent, and then publisher. Any huge editorial issues can wait til then

Dave

redwriter99 · Nov 19, 2012

Thanks for the replies.

I don't think a specific passage is long winded; her comment sounded general.

It was something like this - "I think your character would be shocked to hear that news so you should say he's surprised so we know what his reaction is."

"So maybe he should fall off the chair when he hears the news to show, not tell. right?"

"Or just say he's surprised."

----

I tend to use the show not tell as a generic guideline; sometimes I don't notice it until a beta reader picks it out, other times I see it as I'm writing. It just struck me as odd to get advice to actually not follow the rules.

And I like the advice about not being a slave to rules, in fact I would add -
Rules are never the reason that you get accepted, but they can often be the reason you're rejected.

I've never heard an agent say - "lame story but you followed all the rules, can I represent you?" But I have heard the dreaded - "great story and premise, you just need to hone your craft and think about things like showing more versus telling" (thus my sensitivity to the "rule").

Mutive · Nov 19, 2012

One thought that comes to mind (which may be right or wrong) is that possibly the showing isn't working (at least all the time). The agent may be having a really hard time picking up the emotions of your characters, and figures that squeezing in a bit of telling would make things less confusing.

Of course, it's also possible that the agent is a good agent, but a bad editor.

veinglory · Nov 19, 2012

There is a difference between a tell and an internal show. You can show the thoughts and emotions of a point of view character without having her flail around.

Dreity · Nov 19, 2012

veinglory said:
There is a difference between a tell and an internal show. You can show the thoughts and emotions of a point of view character without having her flail around.

This is true. As I read over my first draft I'm starting to think my FMC needs some kind of medication, what with her constant pounding heart, twisting stomach, tight throat, dizziness, clamminess...

Maybe the agent is spotting something similar, and thinks a simple "My god! she thought" once in a while would save some time?

veinglory · Nov 19, 2012

It's possible. I think some authors know their characters so well that the character's inner life seems really obvious to them, and as a result they don't push enough of the internal stuff at the reader.

DavidBrett · Nov 19, 2012

I agree; that's why it's always best to come back to a completed novel weeks or months later, to be about to approach as a new reader (or as new as one can get when you still subconsciously know all the main plot points). A lot of stuff will jump out at you then.

Dave

Polenth · Nov 19, 2012

Sometimes you need to say she smiled, not that the corners of her mouth lifted up and the lines by her eyes crinkled. Sometimes a person just feels a bit surprised, and doesn't knock anything over, fall off anything or stare in utter shock.

If you do everything in a dramatic showy way, you end up with it being long winded and a bit like your characters are in a comedy show (because everything is exaggerated in order to show it).

(Personally, I dislike giving people advice like "show not tell" or "don't use adverbs" as it often leads to an over-use of it. Better to note that someone needs to show more, or use adjectives less, than give the impression it's something that must always be done.)

Morrell · Nov 19, 2012

Agree with Polenth. "Show, don't tell" is a generalization, not a rule... and there is still a place for pithy and deliberate summary (telling).

MsJudy · Nov 19, 2012

Yep, sometimes a nice, simple bit of telling gets you from Point A to Point B without losing what is actually important in the story.

And if you completely avoid telling, you end up with no author/narrator voice at all. And that can be just as off-putting as too much telling would be.

rwm4768 · Nov 19, 2012

I don't think telling is as evil as people make it out to be. I notice quite a bit of it, even in adult fiction. Since you're posting this in this forum, I would assume you are writing something that is probably MG. In MG, you can get away with more telling.

JKRowley · Nov 19, 2012

As I go along learning how to write, I was pushed away from telling, then drawn back in as my prose sophisticated.

Readers want an internal dialogue, which sometimes demands a little telling to fuel the story. You want the action to remain in action, and not in telling form, but the you also want some telling when it comes to internal conflicts. It is a careful difference.

C.J. Rockwell · Nov 20, 2012

MsJudy said:
Yep, sometimes a nice, simple bit of telling gets you from Point A to Point B without losing what is actually important in the story.

And if you completely avoid telling, you end up with no author/narrator voice at all. And that can be just as off-putting as too much telling would be.

You are the FIRST teacher/writer I've ever heard say that.

Thank you, Judy.

(Tears of Joy!)

veinglory said:
It's possible. I think some authors know their characters so well that the character's inner life seems really obvious to them, and as a result they don't push enough of the internal stuff at the reader.

I so have this problem! It's hard to not lean too far to either side, and sometimes you know the problem, but nothing you try fixes it, NOT a joyous feeling.

redwriter99 · Nov 20, 2012

rwm4768 said:
I don't think telling is as evil as people make it out to be. I notice quite a bit of it, even in adult fiction. Since you're posting this in this forum, I would assume you are writing something that is probably MG. In MG, you can get away with more telling.

Yes, the critiqued work is a MG. I've also wrote in adult genres, but this work is definitely MG.

The frustrating part is finding a balance for what works. Believe it or not, I had a beta for this novel that harped on me for telling too much, not showing in an early draft. Even though I had based it on books like Dead End in Norvelt, etc and the style they wrote with.

I won't start a thread about another topic we discussed during the critique, which was the non-use of 'said' (she mentioned how amateurish it makes the writing look) and congratulated me on not using descriptors. But then the books she suggested I take a look at for success in MG, don't follow the 'said' "rule/guidance" at all. Descriptors galore. She even shrugged her shoulders and said, 'I know, what can I say.'

ChristineJ · Nov 21, 2012

I won't start a thread about another topic we discussed during the critique, which was the non-use of 'said' (she mentioned how amateurish it makes the writing look) and congratulated me on not using descriptors. But then the books she suggested I take a look at for success in MG, don't follow the 'said' "rule/guidance" at all. Descriptors galore. She even shrugged her shoulders and said, 'I know, what can I say.'

I can't stand books that only use "said." Maybe it's because I do so much reading aloud to my kids -- dialogue can seem really clunky when read aloud with the constant "X said".... "Y said" when it is clear that sometimes they are asking or shouting or wondering. I usually skip over "X said" entirely, just modifying my voice slightly for each character.

Of course it can also be highly annoying (and look amateurish) if the author bends over backwards to find new and innovative ways to describe "said,' but an occasional descriptor breaks things up a bit. In my own writing I tend to insert dialogue into descriptions of action or feelings so that it's obvious who is speaking without always having to label "X said." But I'm sure that one reader would compliment me on that approach while another would tell me to reorganize it completely. It's when everyone starts agreeing that you have to pay a lot of attention!

redwriter99 · Nov 21, 2012

@ChristineJ-

I used to prefer to read books that had descriptive dialogue tags - (Ever listen to an audio book with the constant said? ugh.). But as it was explained to me when I started writing seriously is that 'said' is a silent dialogue tag meant to tell you who is talking, not how they would be talking. The dialogue and prose should tell you what is going on without having to rely on descriptive dialogue tags. That's the way it was described to me as weak writing.

However with that said, it's difficult to find a book on the best seller's list in either YA or MG that doesn't use descriptive dialogue tags. And thus the reason for frustration- the industry says 'don't do it', yet many many successful books have been gone through agents, editors, publishers, and book buyers with them. That's why these "rules" are nothing more than suggestions.

MsJudy · Nov 21, 2012

The rule is don't go overboard on variations of said.

He gasped, she exclaimed, they ranted, we pondered out loud... those tend to get in the way of the story.

But unless you are writing for early readers (Magic Treehouse, Frog and Toad), you certainly don't want to rely on "said" with every line of dialogue.

Jack's mom grabbed his shoulder. "Just where do you think you're going, young man?"

We don't need "she said" to know who it is.

Those kinds of action sentences woven in before, during and after someone's dialogue lines keep the story moving forward without calling attention to the words.

And when only 2 characters are talking, you can leave out the stuff altogether for a few lines.

"Amy, where are you going?" Elmo asked.
"To the park."
"Can I come, too?"
Amy shrugged. "I guess so. But I'm not gonna push you on the swings, so don't even ask."

Though in the previous example, I might reconsider the shrug in favor of something a little more original and unique to the character.

MsJudy · Nov 21, 2012

Here's another example where telling beats showing:

So one of my characters has been injured. The other character is going to try to help.

Option one:
"Let me look at it. You know my gran is the town healer, and she teaches me everything she knows."

That might be showing, but it's also an As You Know, Bob. The character doesn't need to tell the other character things he already knows.

Better option:
"Let me look at it."
Jack hesitated, then slipped his shirt off his shoulder. Everyone in the village brought their illnesses and injuries to Abby's gran. If Abby had learned even a tiny bit of what her gran knew, it was worth letting her do what she could.

or something along those lines. It's telling, but it's much smoother than trying to have the dialogue carry the information.

Ms_Sassypants · Nov 21, 2012

Oh Ms Judy! Can you tutor me on dialogues? Brilliant advice!! I find dialogue extremely difficult to write... you made it look so easy!

Hmm... showing and telling. Too much telling bores the reader but too much showing (mostly in descriptions) makes the reader skips the pages. The trick is a balance between the two. Something I'm still trying to figure out myself!

Morrell · Nov 21, 2012

Great examples, MsJudy! There is definitely a time to tell and a time to show. A long passage of telling would take the reader out of the story. Inserting little bits of telling in the midst of a scene can work wonderfully.

But, Ms Sassypants, description is typically telling, not showing.

Showing means having something happen to advance the story.

Telling: The windows of the old house were always dark, and cobwebs stretched across the porch. James and Charlie knew that everyone in town thought the house was haunted, and they were terrifed of going inside.

(This is telling because nothing is actually happening, story-wise. The author is describing the house and telling us what the boys know and how they feel, but no one is doing anything.)

Showing: James paused on the top step. "It looks awfully dark. M-maybe this wasn't such a good idea."

"Yeah." Charlie batted a cobweb away from his face. "We do have a lot of homework. Let's come back some other time."

(This is showing because the boys are actually in a scene, standing there batting cobwebs and discussing whether they want to go through with it. And you can figure out that they are terrified without having to be told.

Showing is important, but if you have all showing, the your story feels too fast-paced, and the reader never gets a chance to breathe (or to assimilate what has happened.)

DavidBrett · Nov 22, 2012

ChristineJ - You must really hate Terry Pratchett's work, then

At first, I stumbled at his use of nothing but 'said'... Then it became invisible, and his comedic genius shined through!

names · Nov 22, 2012

There's nothing really new to add to help you out, everyone here seemed to help you with what I was thinking too. Just think long and hard if you wanted to include something and need to improve on it. Maybe that was what the agent wanted you to understand. Maybe there were some iffy lines of showing or telling, or some stood out as being not interesting enough. Or since this is a character plot issue maybe the character needed more backstory or something of that nature. Think it through but it's too bad you wont be able to ask again but best of luck.

Confused by Critique Advice

redwriter99

DavidBrett

Alas, poor Yorick, he fed me 'nanas

veinglory

volitare nequeo

DavidBrett

Alas, poor Yorick, he fed me 'nanas

redwriter99

Mutive

Blissfully Clueless

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Dreity

veinglory

volitare nequeo

DavidBrett

Alas, poor Yorick, he fed me 'nanas

Polenth

Mushroom

Morrell

MsJudy

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW

JKRowley

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

redwriter99

ChristineJ

redwriter99

MsJudy

MsJudy

Ms_Sassypants

Cadence of Her Last Breath

Morrell

DavidBrett

Alas, poor Yorick, he fed me 'nanas

names