An opinion on writing classes

Bartholomew · Sep 1, 2012

An opinion on writing classes, for your consumption.

I think the amount of salt may be a bit too generous. I'm looking at Iowa's master's program, though, because I've heard really good things and read even better things.

Kerosene · Sep 1, 2012

Is this a question? I guess not.

Comic is pretty good though. (But I think I've seen a gender-bent King Arthur before. F/S N)

I've audited creative writing classes and thought they were worthless. Not because of the subject matter, but the lesson plan and the forcefulness of the teacher to bend his student into his style of writing (to a noticeable extent).

Too much salt.

Maybe others are better somewhere else. I'm not travelling to see if though.

shadowwalker · Sep 1, 2012

The creative writing classes I've taken (few and far between) mainly acted as a method of instilling the discipline to write.

Filigree · Sep 1, 2012

Disclaimer: the last creative writing class I took was in 1985. It didn't do much for me. I learned far more in my technical writing classes. That said, I'd guess it depends on the class.

Someday, if I have the money and the guts, I'd love to spend six weeks at the Clarion boot camp and learn how real professionals write science fiction and fantasy. (Because I just wing it.)

But I'm not likely to take a community - or even state - college teacher's creative writing classes seriously, unless I see some real star-power in their own published work.

amergina · Sep 1, 2012

That's not my experience with writing classes, especially recently, but I know my path is somewhat atypical. (I earned an MFA writing a genre novel.)

Bartholomew · Sep 1, 2012

amergina said:
That's not my experience with writing classes, especially recently, but I know my path is somewhat atypical. (I earned an MFA writing a genre novel.)

Would you be willing to talk about that at more length? If that could happen to me, I'd keep pinching myself trying to wake up. And then worry for the rest of my life that I was in a coma.

The term "Genre Novel" bugs me, though. Novels are a genre. Speculative Fiction is a genre, too. So while "spec-fic novel" isn't redundant, "genre novel" really is. What bothers me, though, is that generally, this term is used derisively (at least where I study) to mean, "Crap the professor doesn't find worthy of the sacred canon."

shadowwalker said:
The creative writing classes I've taken (few and far between) mainly acted as a method of instilling the discipline to write.

I'd love to see that. In mine, we produced two short stories a semester and most of our grade was tied in with the built-in critique group. I am especially cynical and angry about this because I spent two semesters hearing about how strange it was that I used scene breaks, or how strange it was that I used "#" to denote them.

I think the class would have been far superior if we'd been encouraged to produce a lot more content. I'm not sure how the teacher would have graded it--two short stories per student and a few dozen critique circle days are much easier to keep track of--but I think the courses would be far more valuable.

How were yours conducted?

Deleted member 42 · Sep 1, 2012

Bartholomew said:
The term "Genre Novel" bugs me, though. Novels are a genre.

Technically, no, novels, plays, poems are forms. But you will often see all three treated as genres even in an academic context.

I think that the faculty who are/will be teaching the classes are the most important criterion for the quality of a writing program.

Were I interested in writing a specific genre of fiction, I'd look at writing workshops before I looked at a degree.

A.P.M. · Sep 1, 2012

I have learned far more about the craft of writing from the writing/querying process, and this site, than I ever did from my time spent getting an English minor in creative writing.

There was only once class where I did learn something, and the lessons didn't sink in until years later-an advanced fiction writing class that taught us the importance of character "voice."

I'm sure there are programs out there that are worth the time for those who want to learn to write well enough to publish commercially, but I suspect they are few and far between. The most important part of any writing program, for me, would be the connections they give you.

amergina · Sep 1, 2012

Bartholomew said:
Would you be willing to talk about that at more length? If that could happen to me, I'd keep pinching myself trying to wake up. And then worry for the rest of my life that I was in a coma.

The term "Genre Novel" bugs me, though. Novels are a genre. Speculative Fiction is a genre, too. So while "spec-fic novel" isn't redundant, "genre novel" really is. What bothers me, though, is that generally, this term is used derisively (at least where I study) to mean, "Crap the professor doesn't find worthy of the sacred canon."

Well, genre, in this case, is the term I applied. My MFA is in Writing Popular Fiction (as opposed to literary fiction).

It's the low-residency MFA program at Seton Hill University (link here). It's one week of intensive classes and workshops on campus every 6 months, plus writing your thesis novel, which is critiqued by your writing mentor (who is a published author) and a critique group of your peers (and you crit their work), plus on-line classes, first reading in your genre and then classes on teaching writing and writing about writing (which is broken into academic writing and author promotion). They also bring in a guest for each residency, either an author or an agent or editor.

There are four tenured professors who run the program, each who are published as pop-fic writers (in addition to academic publishing) and many adjunct faculty, again, all published.

The classes are full of useful information and geared toward novel-writing, which I didn't get in undergrad (since that was more geared toward literary shorts). But the best part was the supportive environment for popular fiction writing--and the breaking down of walls between the "genres". (for example, I went in with a bit of a poo-poo attitude toward romance and then learned that romance writers really know their stuff--especially the emotional aspect of characterization and found a real deep respect for romance and romance writers--and I now edit and write romance.)

The other thing is that it does teach you a bit about writing to a deadline when other stuff is happening, since you have to have a finished product at the end, and you're also expected to produce between 20-30 pages for your mentor and crit partners a month. That doesn't seem like much, but you're also reading 6-8 books per term and writing about those, so...

The reading classes focus on both classics and recent novels. There's also usually a literary analysis book in the mix (focused on the type of pop fic you're reading).

Now, I will say that you can get all that I got without going through (and paying for) a degree program. There are plenty of writers groups and programs such as Clarion or Odyssey or Viable Paradise where you can learn from some of the best of the best.

Heck, many of the Seton Hill instructors also give workshops at local (to them) SF/F/H conventions (there's a ton giving workshops at Context in Ohio).

But I liked the ability to get it all in one package. I would have loved to do Clarion or Odyssey, but I can't afford the time commitment (I can't get 6 weeks off from work). I *could* afford the SHU program and the two weeks off a year needed for that.

And the people I met have become friends for life.

Gah. This got long. Sorry about that.

Filigree · Sep 1, 2012

Don't be sorry for the long posts. This thread is full of valuable information.

A great workshop could hone my skills enough to help me gain a Big Six offer. I really do want to push myself in a structured environment, but that is another financially-dependent goal - probably for two or three years from now, at least.

For now I take a little solace in the fact that I'm selling novels and getting royalties, though they're still small.

crunchyblanket · Sep 1, 2012

I think I was pretty lucky with my Creative Writing degree course, as it was taught and devised by a diverse range of writers - one sci-fi author, one literary author, one poet, one scriptwriter. We were never pigeonholed into one particular form/genre because they all had their own ideas.

My course wasn't so much about HOW to write, but gave us the tools to go out and do it ourselves. How to research properly. How to format a manuscript. How to see a project through to completion. We were taught proper editing techniques, how to use InDesign for self-pub purposes and how to write query letters.

I wouldn't go so far as to say any of if was necessary, and in honesty, if I could go back and do it all again I'd have studied something different. But I don't think it was a waste of time either.

Mr. Anonymous · Sep 1, 2012

The problem with undergrad creative writing courses, even if the Professor is good/your peers are good (nobody ever took issue with my scene-breaks, haha) is that they do not force you to produce enough material to really grow as a writer. 20 students in a creative writing class, 2-3 stories to workshop per class, one class a week, means that you'll be lucky to have two stories critiqued during the whole course of the semester. That's just not enough.

(I have similar sentiments with regard to workshops.)

I'm about to start an MFA program, though, and it seems much different/much more intense. 15-35 pages have to be turned in for critique 3-4 times per semester. Meeting with a Professor who knows his shit after each critique (although my undergrad professor also knew his shit). Multiply that by 4 semesters and add on a thesis, and you have what seems to me a great opportunity to grow as a writer.

(^That's just the workshop class. At my program you need to take at least three classes in addition to your workshop, though different programs function in different ways.)

As for cost, some programs are quite expensive, others you can get a full ride at and even a stipend for ta-ing.

As for genre vs. literary, I will say that I think a genre writer can get a lot out of these kinds of courses. But they need to go into them knowing that the class is probably being taught by a literary writer, and therefore, the approach/emphasis will be different than if it were taught by a genre writer.

I was at a workshop where Timothy Zahn (wrote a bunch of Star Wars novels, among others) briefly taught. One exercise we did was we constructed an entire plot from scratch. Being a writer with more literary/character-driven leanings, that's not the way I write. But I didn't complain about it. This was his approach, and I tried it. I tried to understand how it worked. Maybe i was a little resistant. But looking back on that experience, learning to think about the story in a broad way probably helped, even though I personally never outline/plot my novels out in advance.

Basically, you need to be open-minded, even if your teachers are not. They're your teachers for a reason. They've already figured out what works for them.

The mistake I feel some genre writers make is that they go into these classes, most of which are taught by literary writers and then they're surprised when the approach/emphasis is a literary one (of course, resistance from the prof/class to the material they're writing doesn't help--but in my experience, there was little-to-none of that). And really, that's the same as me coming out of my workshop with Timothy Zahn and complaining that there was way too much emphasis on plot, not enough on character, dialogue, etc.

VanessaNorth · Sep 1, 2012

Meanwhile, here in the ghetto of genre fiction, our workshops teach us that the first step of plotting is complete character sketches for all major players.

"literary" does not corner the market on character-driven work, Mr. Anonymous, and perpetuating that bit of pretension is really disrespectful.

But, of course, we're used to it.

Mr. Anonymous · Sep 1, 2012

I apologize if I came across disrespectful, I didn't mean to be. I don't think I ever said that genre novels can't be character driven, though I may have unwittingly implied it. There are TONS of great, memorable characters in genre novels. Orson Scott Card's Ender and Bean. Pretty much any George R. R. Martin character. Tons of genre short stories published in places like lightspeed and clarkesworld and analog etc are very character driven. One of my favorite novels is a sci fi novel called Spin. It's all about the characters in Spin. I didn't mean to imply that genre novels aren't character driven, and that there isn't a ton of overlap (tons of genre novels feel literary to me, and tons of literary novels fall into genres like sci fi).

My point was simply that there does, nevertheless, tend to be a difference in emphasis and approach between literary writers and genre writers.

For a literary writer, there might be nothing else to drive the story other than character.

For a genre writer, there may be world building, and plot, all of which mean that less time/focus is devoted exclusively/specifically to character.

Writers in the middle (which i consider myself to be) ultimately have to choose, I think, which way to lean.

(It's not a question of genre NOT being character driven or literary being solely character driven. It's a question of HOW character driven a particular work is. It's a question, as I said, of emphasis.)

To put it another way - literary and genre aren't so much hard and fast categories, in my mind, as much as they are representative of two different styles of writing, each with their own respective set of concerns, and neither of which is necessarily better or worse than the other.

All I wanted to say is, if you're going to take a class with a literary writer, expect that writer to focus on what literary fiction tends to be concerned with. That's all.

amergina · Sep 1, 2012

VanessaNorth said:
"literary" does not corner the market on character-driven work, Mr. Anonymous, and perpetuating that bit of pretension is really disrespectful.

But, of course, we're used to it.

Quite. If anything, in the program I went through there was quite a bit of emphasis on characterization. Plot is important, sure, but the thing that drives readers to follow an author are the characters.

I get tired of the whole lit/pop fiction wars. We're all writers and we can learn from one another.

CrastersBabies · Sep 1, 2012

There are some great low-res "genre-friendly" MFA programs out there. A pal of mine just graduated from one based in Palm Springs that really sounds like it has a great curriculum. They prefer students to write a novel so that by the end of the program, they have something to submit. They also do this end-of-year huge shindig where they invite agents and publishers to look at students' work. Many deals are made because they actually take time to focus on the business side of things.

If I could do it again, I'd probably go more genre-friendly/low-rest instead of traditional.

I've gotten a lot out of creative writing classes, at all levels. I took a "teaching creative writing" graduate-level course that returned to the basics, the fundamentals. Amazing how much I learned when I revisited those craft elements. It was almost like I had taken so much for granted as I progressed in knowledge. Hard to explain, but geesh. I learned more in that class than in almost any other creative writing class I'd taken.

I do think that creative writing classes aren't for everyone. Some learn better with self-directed learning. Some learn better by just "doing" (trial and error). Whatever works for you. I do think it's crappy to poo-poo one type of learning style just because it doesn't work for you.

Finally, I have met some really crappy creative writing instructors. Some were failed writers who took their personal misery out on the class. Others were too narrow in their thinking and could not open their minds to other approaches in writing. Lots of reasons. But, I was lucky enough to have some pretty damn amazing instructors as well.

One of the best things about teaching creative writing (for me personally) is seeing glimpses of a student's voice and style and helping them to uncover their own greatness. In every class I had at least 2 or 3 students who took an intro class "for fun," who never believed they had it in them to write. It's so amazing to see people surprise themselves and to help build that confidence.

Susan Coffin · Sep 1, 2012

I loved the creative writing class taught by Jean Hegland, author of Into the Forest and Windfalls, about 20 years ago. I was in her class for a year and a half and learned more than I can even begin to express. A few years ago I asked to audit her class one semester, because I'd already taken the entire series, but she refused and told me to spend my time writing instead.

I think the most important thing I learned was discipline and the importance of butt in chair.

shaldna · Sep 1, 2012

Some writing courses are better than others - you really need to look at the syllabus, the tutors etc. Look at the past students, what are they doing now? This will give you an idea about the quality of teaching. But I would ask to go and sit in on a class before you make your mind up - I did this a couple of times with different courses, and they were very accommodating.

CrastersBabies · Sep 2, 2012

shaldna said:
Some writing courses are better than others - you really need to look at the syllabus, the tutors etc. Look at the past students, what are they doing now? This will give you an idea about the quality of teaching. But I would ask to go and sit in on a class before you make your mind up - I did this a couple of times with different courses, and they were very accommodating.

I this is great advice. The thing is that in MFA programs, they want publication record for their faculty and being a good writer does not always equate to being a good teacher. So, always good to sit in and see for yourself.

Bartholomew · Sep 2, 2012

So many fantastic replies. Great thread. Sorry I don't have a lot to say. I'm too busy taking notes.

PEBKAC2 · Sep 5, 2012

I had many creative writing classes in college as an undergraduate. Very hit and miss in terms of quality. I also found that well respected published authors that are slapped on the brochures to lure in the students != good teachers. The teaching quality was very hit and miss.

I do have to say though that they kept the classes small. I had one class with around 15 students. The next largest was 8 with the smallest being 5.

kuwisdelu · Sep 5, 2012

Dammit, Bart, your webcomic's title always makes me wish there were any ramen joints around here. Damn, I'd love to have some tonkotsu ramen right now.

Mr. Anonymous said:
As for cost, some programs are quite expensive, others you can get a full ride at and even a stipend for ta-ing.

My creative writing professors have advised not to bother going anywhere that isn't willing to fund you. I think it's quite good advise. An MFA program is not something you should be paying out of pocket for.

Mr. Anonymous · Sep 5, 2012

kuwisdelu said:
My creative writing professors have advised not to bother going anywhere that isn't willing to fund you. I think it's quite good advise. An MFA program is not something you should be paying out of pocket for.

In general, I think this is good advice. However, it's not absolute. The prestige of the program matters. Actual cost matters. Your personal financial situation matters. What you hope to get out of the program matters.

A very small program might decide to fully-fund you (and there are a decent number of these very small programs out there).

If you just want an opportunity to write, you should probably leap at such an offer.

But, if your plan is to get a job teaching, you should consider--will people actually recognize this school when I put it on my resume?

Also worth considering:

Larger programs will be less likely to fully-fund all students, but they will probably employ more Professors and offer a wider array of classes.

On the other hand, larger programs may not guarantee you the opportunity to teach. How important is ta-ing to you?

Etc.

kuwisdelu · Sep 5, 2012

Mr. Anonymous said:
But, if your plan is to get a job teaching, you should consider--will people actually recognize this school when I put it on my resume?

A school prestigious to get you a gig teaching will be prestigious enough to have funding available for you if they want you. If they don't, it's because they don't want you enough. If you're paying for your graduate education, you're doing it wrong.

And if you're getting an MFA for the purpose of teaching creative writing, you had better be damn well off to begin with (or have a good backup plan), in which case you can do whatever the hell you want.

Sunflowerrei · Sep 5, 2012

I have a BA in Writing. My college was good about exposing us to different genres--poetry (which I didn't take), fiction, memoir, magazine writing. But we had an introductory and and advanced course for each type. That was it. There was some instruction on the basics, but it was mostly write, then workshop, then revise. Submit. Move on to the next piece.

It's only now that I'm a few years removed from that environment that I think I'm able to absorb and apply more about writing, from blogs I've read or instructional books or from AW, to my own stuff.

An opinion on writing classes

Comic guy

Your Pixie Queen

empty-nester!

Mildly Disturbing

Pittsburgh Strong

Comic guy

Deleted member 42

Pittsburgh Strong

Mildly Disturbing

the Juggernaut of Imperfection

Just a guy with a pen & a delusion

Purple hair, not prose.

Just a guy with a pen & a delusion

Pittsburgh Strong

Burninator!

Tell it like it Is

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Burninator!

Comic guy

Will crit for food.

Revolutionize the World

Just a guy with a pen & a delusion

Revolutionize the World