Avoiding Ableist Language - but still getting the idea across!

Captcha · Aug 30, 2012

Not exactly grammar or syntax, more word usage, but this forum seemed like a reasonable place to start:

I have characters who are in the habit of joke-insulting each other. It's done in fun, there's no hard feelings or sincerity, so I'm not worried about the characters... but I'm a bit concerned about some readers!

The words that I'm stuck on are "crazy" and "insane" and others of their ilk. None of the characters have a mental illness, but they sometimes speak nonsense to each other, and when they do, others may say something like:

"Sure would be nice if you weren't completely insane."

"Another totally crazy idea. That's six in one day."

etc.

Is this usage ableist? If it is, is there a substitute that would still sound like something thirty-something Americans would say? Or do I have to chose between authentic dialogue and avoiding ableist language?

(These are meant to be sympathetic characters, so I can't do one of those 'It's how the characters talk and I don't care if you don't like them because of it' - I want readers to like them!)

Snick · Aug 30, 2012

What does "ableist" mean?

That language is perfectly fine. if you want to have characters who say things like that. I don't see any problem, except with some insane extremists.

Transatlantic · Aug 30, 2012

Yeah, that was my reaction.

If someone's offended by the word "crazy" because they consider it disrespectful of them and their mental disorders... Well, they must be mad. Seriously, the language needs the words and the concept of craziness in the broad sense; they can't be confined and kept off limits like that.

Have you had negative feedback?

Captcha · Aug 30, 2012

I know that there's a movement to have the words considered slurs, but I'm not sure how widespread it is. I haven't had specific feedback on this story (it's still a WIP) but I've had some comments about usage in other contexts.

I agree with the general idea - using a word as an insult adds negative associations to the group of people associated with the word. (For example, I would never have a character intended to be sympathetic use "gay" as an insult). But in this case, I'm not sure that "crazy" is a word that's legitimately used to describe the mentally ill, so I'm not sure if the connection is close enough to be an issue. As I said, I know that some people believe that it is an issue and a problem... but my own opinions are unformed, so I can't use them to judge, and was hoping that others could weigh in.

Snick · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I know that there's a movement to have the words considered slurs, but I'm not sure how widespread it is. I haven't had specific feedback on this story (it's still a WIP) but I've had some comments about usage in other contexts.

If you4r characters are using insulting language, then those are slurs. It has nothing to do with insanity; it has to do with insulting.

I agree with the general idea - using a word as an insult adds negative associations to the group of people associated with the word. (For example, I would never have a character intended to be sympathetic use "gay" as an insult). But in this case, I'm not sure that "crazy" is a word that's legitimately used to describe the mentally ill, so I'm not sure if the connection is close enough to be an issue. As I said, I know that some people believe that it is an issue and a problem... but my own opinions are unformed, so I can't use them to judge, and was hoping that others could weigh in.

As I understand it, "crazy" hasn't been used as a technical term for insanity for a long time. SO all of that about it being a slir is odd. It has been a slur, and nothing else, for many years.

Captcha · Aug 30, 2012

Snick said:
If you4r characters are using insulting language, then those are slurs. It has nothing to do with insanity; it has to do with insulting.

As I understand it, "crazy" hasn't been used as a technical term for insanity for a long time. SO all of that about it being a slir is odd. It has been a slur, and nothing else, for many years.

I guess the issue is whether its a slur on its intended target, or whether using it that way extends the insult to a larger group who have done nothing to invite it.

Transatlantic · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I guess the issue is whether its a slur on its intended target, or whether using it that way extends the insult to a larger group who have done nothing to invite it.

I'd definitely say no, because "crazy" is too general for that. Whereas if you said, I don't know, "That's so stupid, you must be from Greenland!" then that's a slur against people from Greenland.

Chris P · Aug 30, 2012

I know you didn't want anyone to say this, but that is how people talk, even close friends. The respect for each other is going to show through in how you have the characters interact rather than avoiding words the 99 people out of 10 won't consider slurs. The reader will relate to the exchange pleasant jibes.

But more to your question, I don't see the words as ableist and I still would not if I had a mental illness. Besides, if we were to avoid all language that could be interpreted as offensive all novels would read like technical instruction manuals.

Bufty · Aug 30, 2012

If the dialogue is in context and not obviously aimed outside the context I see nothing wrong with these words. They appear all the time.

mayqueen · Aug 30, 2012

I guess I'm going to be one of the only people here who has an issue with the word crazy. I do see it as ableist, same as "lame" and "dumb" etc. It's a bit different because it's been used less specifically as an insult against people living with mental illness. I think the context you are using it in is less problematic. What I don't like it the personal "you're crazy" or "she is crazy" to dismiss someone.

But here's the thing: you're writing characters. If they would use that language, then you should write it. Most people don't think about "crazy" being an ableist word, same as many people still use "gay" or "lame" as an insult. So if it rings true to your characters, use that.

shadowwalker · Aug 30, 2012

Used as dialog among friends, I don't have a problem with it, any more than any other slur used that way. I'd notice it, like I noticed some of the phrasing in the comments here, but it's not like they were actually talking about someone with an MI. Would it make me dislike the characters? No - I may not like them as much, but I wouldn't dislike them.

leahzero · Aug 30, 2012

I think this is going to come down to a matter of personal belief.

Yes, some people believe words like "crazy," "insane," etc. are offensive and ableist.

There are also some of us who are afflicted by these things, have family/friends who are, or whatever, and don't believe they're ableist--or have some other reason for why they're okay.

I think it's a fair generalization to say that outside of the social justice community, there is not a lot of recognition of this as ableist language. Whether or not that's good, I don't know. It simply is.

This is one of those issues that makes me unable to fully embrace the social justice movement. I think there's a difference between using a word in an ableist way, and a word being inherently ableist. Like there is a difference between using a word in a racist way, and a word being inherently racist. I don't agree that the words mentioned in this thread are inherently ableist, and I wouldn't have a problem using them in almost any context.

Snick · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I guess the issue is whether its a slur on its intended target, or whether using it that way extends the insult to a larger group who have done nothing to invite it.

If you want to think that it would become a slur to a larger group, then it is a slur on the human race.

I think that you are making a problem out of nothing. If your character talk like that, then let them.

Susan Coffin · Aug 30, 2012

What does "ableist" mean?

Discrimination against people with disabilities.

Is this usage ableist? If it is, is there a substitute that would still sound like something thirty-something Americans would say? Or do I have to chose between authentic dialogue and avoiding ableist language

Crazy can also mean silly as heck, making out of the ordinary decisions, and is a term some use to describe mentally ill people. It seems to me ableist language would be saying someone is crazy because they are mentally ill. This latter usage is offensive.

In your example, two friends are joking around with each other. I've also joked with my friends, and we've called each other crazy. My friends have called me on the "crazy" decisions I've made too.

You can't please everyone. Just make sure you write true to your characters and story and that it is your characters speaking and not you. In other words, if you use a different dialogue because you are afraid of offending, then you are speaking and not your character.

Susan Coffin · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I guess the issue is whether its a slur on its intended target, or whether using it that way extends the insult to a larger group who have done nothing to invite it.

Well, unless the language is clearly a slur, then whether or not it is a slur is open to interpretation. No slur exists in the OP's examples. It's just private dialogue between two friends.

Snick · Aug 30, 2012

Susan Littlefield said:
Discrimination against people with disabilities.

I don't see any reason for the word to exist, if that is what it is supposed to mean.

Captcha · Aug 30, 2012

Snick said:
I don't see any reason for the word to exist, if that is what it is supposed to mean.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that there's no such thing as discrimination against people with disabilities?

Or that we shouldn't have a word to describe the phenomenon?

LJD · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I guess the issue is whether its a slur on its intended target, or whether using it that way extends the insult to a larger group who have done nothing to invite it.

I don't think it's the latter.
I'd have no problems with your dialogue.

G. Applejack · Aug 30, 2012

Oh yes, I know well that group.

As others have said, it comes down to personal believes. If you're uncomfortable with using 'crazy, lame, insane' then don't have your characters saying it. Though I suppose 'Yo Momma' jokes are out, too? They must be a dull lot.

The only thing I can say is that, as you've seen on this thread, the majority of the population see those words as mild as best, and don't connect them to ableist language. They haven't even heard of ableist language because it's the obsession of a small group of people. My spell checker doesn't even know what ableist is.

But again, it's your story and if you don't feel comfortable then you're going to have to do cartwheels to have your characters insult each other without using insulting words.

I've heard that 'douche-canoe' and 'batshit' are acceptable SJW-approved alternatives, though how those are better than 'insane' is beyond me.

ViolettaVane · Aug 30, 2012

I'm concerned with ableist language use and work to minimize it myself. If I'm writing about irrational negative behavior in a nonfiction way, I don't use crazy, I use deranged, as that strikes me as more of a behavior and not an identity.

If your characters don't really have a lot of contact with mental health issues, they should go ahead and use "crazy" joking with each other, because to not do so would be unnatural and unrealistic. However, if you're concerned about ableism, you can include stuff in the story that subverts the "mentally ill" = "stupid & evil" stereotype that the overcasual use of "crazy" feeds into.

J.W. Alden · Aug 30, 2012

Whenever I run into issues like this, the only questions I ask myself are, "Is this word in character? Would this character say this? If this character was a real person, standing next to me right now, speaking to me in the same way, is this something he/she would say?" If the answers is yes, regardless how offensive it might be, it stays.

People in the real world are offensive. They say offensive things. Thus, so do my characters. My characters can be ableist, racist, sexist, etc, because that's just how people are in the real world. Not all of them, but enough for it to be a part of the human experience, even when it's an unfortunate part.

Captcha · Aug 30, 2012

J.W. Alden said:
Whenever I run into issues like this, the only questions I ask myself are, "Is this word in character? Would this character say this? If this character was a real person, standing next to me right now, speaking to me in the same way, is this something he/she would say?" If the answers is yes, regardless how offensive it might be, it stays.

People in the real world are offensive. They say offensive things. Thus, so do my characters. My characters can be ableist, racist, sexist, etc, because that's just how people are in the real world. Not all of them, but enough for it to be a part of the human experience, even when it's an unfortunate part.

I don't really buy this argument. Written dialogue is significantly tidied up compared to actual human conversation... our characters are wittier and significantly more coherent than actual humans are in real life. (Have you ever done that thing where you record and then transcribe a real-world conversation? - it's an eye-opener).

Even removing the issue of sentence fragments and other carelessness, if I transcribed the actual dialogue of some educated people I know (including, at times, myself) I think it would give the impression, in literary form, of someone the reader is supposed to consider a boor. Casual obscenities, local slang, incomprehensible in-jokes, grunts instead of proper responses, etc...

I think our characters' dialogue is stylized to the point of being almost symbolic. As such, I think we need to pay some attention to the impression given by their word choices, rather than pretending that we're just accurately reflecting society.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't use words that some people might consider offensive. I'm just saying that we should use the words based on an understanding of the effect these words will have, and of the differences between actual human speech and the conventions of literary dialogue.

Snick · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that there's no such thing as discrimination against people with disabilities?

Or that we shouldn't have a word to describe the phenomenon?

Or that there are better ways to describe that situation.

Bufty · Aug 30, 2012

I may be being a little thick today, but I'm afraid I can't grasp what point you are trying to make here.

The words my characters use are not meant to have an effect on anybody except the other character to whom they are speaking.

Are you writing non-fiction or for a specific audience you know in advance may be offended by various words? If so, don't use them if you don't wish to risk causing offence.

Captcha said:
I don't really buy this argument. Written dialogue is significantly tidied up compared to actual human conversation... our characters are wittier and significantly more coherent than actual humans are in real life. (Have you ever done that thing where you record and then transcribe a real-world conversation? - it's an eye-opener).

Even removing the issue of sentence fragments and other carelessness, if I transcribed the actual dialogue of some educated people I know (including, at times, myself) I think it would give the impression, in literary form, of someone the reader is supposed to consider a boor. Casual obscenities, local slang, incomprehensible in-jokes, grunts instead of proper responses, etc...

I think our characters' dialogue is stylized to the point of being almost symbolic. As such, I think we need to pay some attention to the impression given by their word choices, rather than pretending that we're just accurately reflecting society.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't use words that some people might consider offensive. I'm just saying that we should use the words based on an understanding of the effect these words will have, and of the differences between actual human speech and the conventions of literary dialogue.

J.W. Alden · Aug 30, 2012

Captcha said:
I don't really buy this argument. Written dialogue is significantly tidied up compared to actual human conversation... our characters are wittier and significantly more coherent than actual humans are in real life. (Have you ever done that thing where you record and then transcribe a real-world conversation? - it's an eye-opener).

Even removing the issue of sentence fragments and other carelessness, if I transcribed the actual dialogue of some educated people I know (including, at times, myself) I think it would give the impression, in literary form, of someone the reader is supposed to consider a boor. Casual obscenities, local slang, incomprehensible in-jokes, grunts instead of proper responses, etc...

I think our characters' dialogue is stylized to the point of being almost symbolic. As such, I think we need to pay some attention to the impression given by their word choices, rather than pretending that we're just accurately reflecting society.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't use words that some people might consider offensive. I'm just saying that we should use the words based on an understanding of the effect these words will have, and of the differences between actual human speech and the conventions of literary dialogue.

Yeah, what Bufty said.

And there's no "argument" in my post for you to "buy," because I wasn't arguing anything. I was just telling you how I write dialogue.

And don't you think there's a big difference between cleaning up the written grammar of dialogue and completely altering the words the characters are using in order to put YOUR OWN concessions in? For me, that means I'm compromising my character's voice and injecting my own, along with the ideals that come with it. Of course, I can write characters that share those ideals, but I think it would be pretty boring and unrealistic if all of them did.

For the record, some of my characters do speak in fragments (depending on the character), but my whole point is that something like word choice and whether or not a character would use potentially offensive phrasing depends on the nature of the character. None of the worlds I've written thus far exist without racism, sexism, ableism or any other ugly facet of humanity that I'm not crazy about having to run into while standing in line at the grocery store. So, yes, some of my characters say offensive things, including the intelligent ones with seemingly perfect grammar.

Avoiding Ableist Language - but still getting the idea across!

Captcha

Snick

Transatlantic

Should be writing!

Captcha

Snick

Captcha

Transatlantic

Should be writing!

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

leahzero

The colors! THE COLORS!

Snick

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

Snick

Captcha

LJD

G. Applejack

Write faster! FASTER!

ViolettaVane

I'm living in a silent film

J.W. Alden

The King Who Bore the Sword

Captcha

Snick

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

J.W. Alden

The King Who Bore the Sword