Respect vs Tolerance

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thebloodfiend

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fyi, I have no idea if this is the correct sub-forum.

I've been thinking a lot on the subject of religion and the differences between them. I wasn't raised with any particular religion. My parents just stuck with a vague notion of God, but they never told me to pray or anything like that. So, I don't really believe in anything. I've gone back and forth between atheism and agnosticism. Most of my family is very heavily Christian, though we never spent much time with them as I grew up.

But, as I've started living on my own and meeting a wider range of Christians besides Catholics and Baptists, I've started doing very basic reading on religion, including reading the bible, skimming the Quron, and various other things. And I've discovered that I don't like a lot of what some religions say. Yet, I've been raised to respect these religions and let them do as they wish with no question. That bothered me even more when I stayed in Egypt, a primarily Islamic country, because so much of what was dictated because of the religion went a complete 180 with my system of beliefs.

So I'm faced with this question -- is it wrong to not respect a religion? I tolerate religion. I respect some religions. But is it a must to respect a religion just because others believe in it? I respect your right to believe in a religion, for instance, but not your religion or the beliefs itself.

I have nothing against Christians, as individuals, or Muslims as individuals. But is it wrong to criticize a religion, or particular tenants in a religion, or even to dislike a religion? Does that go past the line? I have no intention of starting any threads here, criticizing religion, jftr.

It's merely a question of -- does this offend members of that religion, to see their religion, not their belief in that religion, critiqued? Or does that cross the line?
 

Persei

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Well... I guess it doesn't. To put an analogy here, I think it would be same of critiquing the work and not the author. Religion has a lot of things that I don't agree with, and are completely abhrorrent in my view. But I don't get a say on its followers. Now, some religious people might not see the line at all and take offense because they might confound the two critiques you've mentioned.

It won't be your fault if this happens.
 

Maxinquaye

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I try to refrain from talking about religion around yanks, except when some aspect of religion does something horrific. For me, as a gay man, the sad truth is that 70-80 per cent Christians belong to churches and demoninations that just plain don’t like gay people - never mind gay rights.

Catholic, Southern Baptists, Mormons, most protestant denominations make up a huge majority of Christianity in the west, and if you make that claim - particularly around yanks - you always get to hear the line that “not all Christians are like that!”. Then you’re pointed to some fringe church, hierarchy or denomination.

Hell, half the threads in this forum - which is for atheists and agnostics - are about religionism as the default, which us atheists and agnostics have to talk about.

My thinking about Christianity, which is what I run into most, aren’t really acceptable in most forums. Do I hate religion? Yes. I’m also an adherent to the “don’t be a dick”-school of atheism because nobody has ever been convinced by having someone shout at them, from a distance of two inches from the nose.
 

shadowwalker

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I have no problem distinguishing between respect and tolerating. I tolerate most things. People have a right (IMO) to believe and do whatever, as long as it's not hurting someone else. Whether I believe in the same things doesn't matter one bit. Respect, for the most part, is not deliberately insulting someone for their beliefs - so I guess that's equating respect with good manners. I may or may not believe in someone's religion, but I'm not going to tell them they're an idiot because they believe. I will discuss beliefs, but I won't try to convert.

And it's early and I haven't had enough coffee yet, so hopefully that makes sense.
 

Maxinquaye

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I don't think that disagreements with someone is about "good manners". You can be perfectly civil and respectful while thinking that someone is utterly wrong. Manners just come into it in how you present your disagreement.

"I think you are wrong because..." is perfectly good manners.

"You stupd neolithic-minded git..." is not good manners.
 
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shadowwalker

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I don't think that disagreements with someone is about "good manners". You can be perfectly civil and respectful while thinking that someone is utterly wrong. Manners just come into it in how you present your disagreement.

"I think you are wrong because..." is perfectly good manners.

"You studid nelithic-minded git..." is not good manners.

Agree. (That's what I was trying to say but - it was early! ;))
 

Ken

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... with things like this, I keep in mind that my opinion on the matter ultimately makes no difference. I'm a no one in the general scheme of things. So whether I have this opinion or that or respect this or don't respect that is neither here nor there. No one ultimately cares one way or the other. There are some benefits to being insignificant.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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I respect people, not belief systems. Further, I respect only people I deem worthy of respect, and that includes believers and nonbelievers.

I have zero respect for belief systems themselves. They are simply ideas. They might be good ideas or bad ideas; usually they are a mishmash of both. But it all boils down to how those ideas are applied by those who believe in them.

Some religious beliefs are not worthy of tolerance. I see no merit in tolerating religious bigotry, religion-based oppression of gays, women or minorities. I see no merit in tolerating religious organizations giving cover to pedophiles. I see no merit in tolerating religious practices that mutilate the genitals of infants and children, or deny people the right to control their fertility.

Just because something is an official religious belief or practice does not make it worthy of respect, let alone something that should be tolerated.

If individuals choose to apply the mandates of their religion to themselves, I respect their right to do so. But that right stops at the end of their nose. I do not respect their right to mutilate their child's genitals, or marry their 12-year-old off to the middle-aged guru, or beat their child with a rod because their holy book says to.

To be fair, most religions and believers aren't anywhere near that extreme. But no, I don't think we should tolerate extremes that are harmful to others. If a religious practice oppresses or harms people against their will, then those who stand back and tolerate it are nearly as guilty as the believers who perpetuate those harms.
 

thebloodfiend

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Now, some religious people might not see the line at all and take offense because they might confound the two critiques you've mentioned.

That's what I was worried about, but your analogy between book critique/author made perfect sense.

I’m also an adherent to the “don’t be a dick”-school of atheism because nobody has ever been convinced by having someone shout at them, from a distance of two inches from the nose.

That's true. People seem to hate Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins. I'm not of the opinion that people need to be yelled at or whatever. I'm not a militant atheist by a long shot. But I only know one other atheist and I do get that weird look whenever I tell someone. Like something is wrong with me. I'm just glad no one has started trying to tell me the benefits of being religious, otherwise I would've got pissed.

I may or may not believe in someone's religion, but I'm not going to tell them they're an idiot because they believe. I will discuss beliefs, but I won't try to convert.

After reading what Maxinquaye said after you, I get what you were trying to say. At first, I was a bit confused.

Some religious beliefs are not worthy of tolerance. I see no merit in tolerating religious bigotry, religion-based oppression of gays, women or minorities. I see no merit in tolerating religious organizations giving cover to pedophiles. I see no merit in tolerating religious practices that mutilate the genitals of infants and children, or deny people the right to control their fertility.

Just because something is an official religious belief or practice does not make it worthy of respect, let alone something that should be tolerated.

...

To be fair, most religions and believers aren't anywhere near that extreme. But no, I don't think we should tolerate extremes that are harmful to others. If a religious practice oppresses or harms people against their will, then those who stand back and tolerate it are nearly as guilty as the believers who perpetuate those harms.

And you cut right to point I was wondering about. It just felt wrong, I guess, to be expected to respect, let alone tolerate something that hasn't earned that right, simply because someone believes in it. Because elsewhere, I've been told that it's their religious right to believe in certain things, no matter how harmful, and their right to practice them on their children, and that I should respect their right to do so because I don't understand their religion.


Thank you all for your replies. I'm glad I'm not crazy for wondering about the respect vs tolerance thing.
 

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To tolerate is to put up with something you disagree with or do not like. To respect is to approve, on at least some level. You cannot tolerate what you already respect, and you cannot respect that which you must tolerate. Respect cannot be demanded from others - it can only be earned. With regard to any given religion, you may respect some tenants, be tolerant of other tenants, and be intolerant of (i.e. vocally protest and seek to disuade belief in) still other tenants within the same religion. This is how most people approach most religions most of the time, whatever they claim to the contrary with meaningless phrases such as, "I respect your religion." But in the U.S. at least you must tolerate - allow - the free practice of religion and must not legally or physically restrain it except where that practice directly violates the legal rights of others. You don't have to respect anyone or anything. The annoying thing to me is people who go about preaching the gospel of tolerance but then refuse to tolerate the only people who require tolerance of them, and then applaud themselves for being tolerant of that which they merely approve. It's no virtue to tolerate what you already like or agree with. It requires no effort at all.
 
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Friendly Frog

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Having no respect for some religious or cultural aspects shouldn't be considered wrong, I think. To me, respect is something to be earned. Tolerance is a necessity for societies to function, respect is a perk. I find freedom of religion highly important, but that shouldn't saveguard any religion from honest examination and criticism by members or non-members.
 

Niniva

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For the OP: Yeah, I'm going with the don't be a dick vote. If you have an opinion that others are GOING to disagree with, you have to decide which one you want more - expression of your opinion or freedom from conflict. I personally want freedom from conflict.

I tolerate an awful lot; about once every five years someone decides they must do something that I will not tolerate. It is a thing to behold, or so I am told.

As for respect, I respect what is worthy... Too often, it is things I deem to be of goodness and mercy, even against good logical arguments to the contrary.

For example: No, you can't throw the newly widowed in-law out of your brother's house simply because you know she is a stupid twit who is going to do something terrible. [She did.]
 

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Something that frustrates me is that arguing against a particular religion or religious practice is seen as intolerant, or downright fascist. We argue about cultural issues and politics all the time, but once religion's involved you're some kind of horrible monster.

Disagreeing with a religion=/=Thinking that religion should be illegal/assuming all members of that religion are evil
 

screenscope

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I tolerate religion, in the negative sense of the word.

I accept that people have religious beliefs - and actually feel a bit sorry for them - but I have no respect for religion at all. To me, it's a nonsense and a placibo for reality.

I guess I'm both patronizing and condescending when it comes to religion, but I have no problems with that attitude, particularly as I feel that's exactly what atheists get back from religious people.
 
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shadowwalker

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I guess I believe in treating everyone with respect until they are disrespectful of me. I will discuss differences, but I will not ridicule. Others have as much right to their beliefs as I do to mine.
 

Hamilton

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But not all beliefs are worthy of respect. Some people believe that God ordained that women be under the authority of men. Are people supposed to never argue against that line of thinking because those who believe in it are entitled to their beliefs? Being entitled to one's belief does not mean one is entitled never to have those beliefs criticized.
 

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Jumping in late here because I just joined these forums and was perusing the boards (again, I spent a lot of time perusing yesterday...)

I was raised Baptist, but after many things happened in my adult life, I had to really re-think my beliefs on religion. Let's just say I pretty much completely lost my faith and although I don't really consider myself atheist, I do consider myself agnostic.

It's difficult now for me to respect any organized religion. Don't get me wrong, I respect most people's belief's - if they want to believe in a deity that is (IMO) vengeful and throws a temper-tantrum if you don't worship how "He" wants (according to biblical testament) he will smite or punish you - that is their business. I just don't want it pushed on me any more. I got plenty of that growing up in a "Christian" school.

What I've found is that there are more hateful, judgmental people in "Organized Religions" than there are people that are atheist or agnostic. Being a good person and having good morals and goals in your life is not dependent upon being religious. You do not have to believe in an "Omniscient being" in order to be a good person.

More wars have been fought in the name of "God" or in the name of some religious belief than for any other reason in history. So I just don't see the point of worshiping or believing in anything that teaches you to be hateful or disrespectful to other cultures and other beliefs...just because a religion tells you that it's better than all the others, does not make it so.
 

Roxxsmom

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Fascinating discussion. I've often wondered the same thing as the rest of you: Why does saying an abhorrent or irrational belief is due to your religion suddenly make it all right?

The anti same sex marriage crowd here in the states tends to invoke their religious beliefs as justification for denying others a basic human right. And once someone says, "I just think this because it's my religion," the conversation is supposed to be over.

On another note, I teach biology to college students, and I sometimes get a student who tells me he or she simply can't "believe in" some well-supported scientific principle (most commonly evolution), because "her religion doesn't allow it."

I subscribe to the "Don't be a dick" school as well, so I usually smile and tell them they have to decide for themselves what to believe.

What I WANT to do is shake said student and say, "Stop being so passive and lazy. This is the United States. People died to give you the freedom to choose your religion. You don't HAVE to belong to a religion that tells you to be a mindless sheep."

It drives me nuts when someone acts like their religion is some innate trait that they have no choice about and that their choice of religion somehow makes all their other choices okay or understandable.
 

LAgrunion

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Re the OP's question of respect v tolerance, I think it's necessary to tolerate religions just because we live in a democracy with religious freedom. It's the only way to get along. Practical reality.

But that doesn't mean I have to respect religions. To me, respect means some approval or admiration. I find most major religions to be disagreeable and even repugnant, so I don't respect them.

1. I wouldn't want to promote the religions. To utter a verbal "respect" of religion X when I think religion X has oppressive practice Y is akin to indirectly supporting practice Y.

2. I don't want to be a phony - pretend I respect them when I don't. As I get older, I find it easier to be honest, because I just don't care as much.

That said, I don't generally voice my disrespect of religion. I keep it to myself and only speak up when someone either picks a fight first or shows that they can discuss it calmly.

Life is short, gotta pick your battles...
 

blacbird

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Some astute comments about "respect" and "tolerance", and useful.

I think I can say without reservation, however, that "intolerance" equates closely to "disrespect".

caw
 

_Sian_

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I find words like respect hard to apply to major organisations and countries. Religious organisations have done a lot of bad things in their time, and a lot of good things. So have many countries. Given the depth of history associated with both countries and religious organisations, I find it very hard to apply words like respect. There is no way you can go through over 200 or more years of history and not find things you both agree and disagree with.

So I apply respect to how people practise their religion. If in their practise, they are not hurting anyone, I can respect that. If they are hurting someone, then I can respect that that is their view, and that they are entitled to it, but I don't respect that view. I try to understand it however - I'm going to have to deal with a multitude of people in my life, and they are no more obligated to try and understand my position than I am theirs. But if I make the effort, I can hope they will make it too.

Also, the nature of my studies and my job = healthcare that is accessable to everyone. The ambulance shows up whoever calls, and if I get hung up on someone's opinion or actions? I'm not going to be able to do my job properly. It is not my place to judge, and in my mind, tolerance implies some level of judgement.

Tolerance to me is gritting my teeth and bearing it. I've made a judgement on that person based on their belief and being aware that I can't change it, I'm putting up with it.

I think it is entirely possible to respect that a person has a view but not actually respect that view itself.

There's a person I know who has very firm views about abortion and the "sins of homosexuality". But she is willing to listen to how I come to my conclusions, she is willing to think about what I say, and in return, I can respect her right to her view even though I vehemently disagree with it. She also believes in the principal of free will, so even though she holds these views, they don't make her angry or act towards anyone in a different way. The worst I've seen her is sad for everyone else.

Frankly, if she got angry and hateful towards those who were doing what she considered wrong? Then there would be an issue. That would be tolerance, and I wouldn't be her friend anymore.

I hope that makes sense. They're very personal definitions of the word, but I think that respect is something that is needed for discourse, tolerance is what you use if you want to ignore the issue and just live your lives as everyone sees fit.
 

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I do not respect any Earth religion, but I tolerate them for society's sake.
 

Amadan

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I respect people's right to believe things. That doesn't mean I respect their beliefs.
 

Roxxsmom

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That said, I don't generally voice my disrespect of religion. I keep it to myself and only speak up when someone either picks a fight first or shows that they can discuss it calmly.

Life is short, gotta pick your battles...

Very true. I've been alive for almost 49 years now, and I have only once EVER had someone look at me and say, "You know, you're right!" when we were arguing about some philosophical or ethical point like this.
 
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