Beginnings of Beginnings

Teinz · May 23, 2012

Hi guys,

I'm thinking about creation myths or stories. I need one for my story. It'll probably never come up, but it does set the rules which the story must obey. I'm familiar with some of the Judeo-Christian creation stories, but not much else.

I came across this one a few years back. It's in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". I found it to be particularly beautiful, although I'm unable to explain why. It's a Maori chant.

The Void
The First Void
The Second Void
The Vast Void
The Far-Extending Void
The Sere Void
The Unposessing Void
The Delightful Void
The Void Fast Bound
The Night
The Hanging Night
The Drifting Night
The Moaning Night
The Daughter of Troubled Sleep
The Dawn
The Abiding Day
The Bright Day
Space
Moisture
Great Expanse of Heaven
The Heavens
Earth

According to Campbell, this chant attempts to describe the breaking of formlessness into form. For me, it sounds as if someone has been trying to put 21st century knowledge about the Big Bang into Stone-Age words. Maybe it can even be read psychological and be used as a description of the way our consciousness wells up from the deepest recesses of our mind.

Do you guys know of any other creation stories? Of other religions and cultures. Maybe you have a fresh perspective on the things we think we know?

Lets talk about it.

Maxx · May 23, 2012

Teinz said:
Hi guys,

I'm thinking about creation myths or stories. I need one for my story. It'll probably never come up, but it does set the rules which the story must obey. I'm familiar with some of the Judeo-Christian creation stories, but not much else.

I came across this one a few years back. It's in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". I found it to be particularly beautiful, although I'm unable to explain why. It's a Maori chant.

The Void
The First Void
The Second Void
The Vast Void
The Far-Extending Void
The Sere Void
The Unposessing Void
The Delightful Void
The Void Fast Bound
The Night
The Hanging Night
The Drifting Night
The Moaning Night
The Daughter of Troubled Sleep
The Dawn
The Abiding Day
The Bright Day
Space
Moisture
Great Expanse of Heaven
The Heavens
Earth

According to Campbell, this chant attempts to describe the breaking of formlessness into form. For me, it sounds as if someone has been trying to put 21st century knowledge about the Big Bang into Stone-Age words. Maybe it can even be read psychological and be used as a description of the way our consciousness wells up from the deepest recesses of our mind.

Do you guys know of any other creation stories? Of other religions and cultures. Maybe you have a fresh perspective on the things we think we know?

Lets talk about it.

Very nice. I bet it is even more evocative in the original language.

Interestingly, multiple, quasi-primordial worlds seem to be a pretty common idea.

My current favorite is the 13th Heaven of the generic MesoAmericans where the gods enjoy iced beverages.

Teinz · May 23, 2012

Maxx said:
Interestingly, multiple, quasi-primordial worlds seem to be a pretty common idea.

Can you explain this?

Maxx said:
My current favorite is the 13th Heaven of the generic MesoAmericans where the gods enjoy iced beverages.

It's about 30 C around here, so don't talk about iced beverages.

Do you have a link for the story?

Maxx · May 23, 2012

Teinz said:
Can you explain this?

It's about 30 C around here, so don't talk about iced beverages.

Do you have a link for the story?

The Navajo, who are kind of the farthest northern part of the MesoAmerican traditions, have 4-12 earlier worlds stacked up below as well as at least one world above the sky.

Iced beverages -- maybe a Toltec-Aztec extra detail to the delights of the 13th Heaven, but 13 Heavens (note how that sorta fits kinda with 12 lower worlds) is the accepted MesoAmerican number. See for example:

http://www.authenticmaya.com/maya_cosmology.htm

RichardGarfinkle · May 23, 2012

I believe the Navajo story has us in the fifth world. I recommend the Dine Bahane (those e's should have accents on them) which is as much of their creation story as they tell to outsiders. There are a number of translations.

Changing cultures and religions completely. The Zend Avesta which is a sacred Zoroastrian text can be found online.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/index.htm

Their story is intriguing because in it the world is made as a trap for the evil god Angra Mainyu by the good god Ahura Mazda. When he is defeated (sometime in the future) the world will be remade as a retirement home for people who fought him by their good and honest acts.

Shifting again, Taoist cosmology is a bit abstract and doesn't really fit the outlined pattern apart from starting in a void.

Hindu cosmology is both cyclic and illusary so I don't know if it fits either.

Gateway · May 24, 2012

Teinz said:
Hi guys,

The Void
The First Void
The Second Void
The Vast Void
The Far-Extending Void
The Sere Void
The Unposessing Void
The Delightful Void
The Void Fast Bound
The Night
The Hanging Night
The Drifting Night
The Moaning Night
The Daughter of Troubled Sleep
The Dawn
The Abiding Day
The Bright Day
Space
Moisture
Great Expanse of Heaven
The Heavens
Earth

That's the base of TREE OF LIFE.

Raventongue · May 24, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Changing cultures and religions completely. The Zend Avesta which is a sacred Zoroastrian text can be found online.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/index.htm

Their story is intriguing because in it the world is made as a trap for the evil god Angra Mainyu by the good god Ahura Mazda. When he is defeated (sometime in the future) the world will be remade as a retirement home for people who fought him by their good and honest acts.

The version I always heard was that he would also defeat the aspects of Angra Mainyu in all of us. The Earth was to be engulfed in molten metal, which would burn and torture each person until they were pure, then once there was no evil left in them they'd swim around comfortably in it like water. I was taught that after a few days, even the most wicked of us would be at that stage, and then I can't remember what's supposed to happen when everyone's pure. Presumably the Earth remade as a reward for all who strove to do right, as you say.

The Jews in exile and, through them, later the Christians and Muslims, added some Zoroastrian concepts to their worldviews, though to my knowledge not their creation myth. Mostly the idea of there being spiritual beings other than their god, angels and devils and such.

Teinz · May 25, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Changing cultures and religions completely. The Zend Avesta which is a sacred Zoroastrian text can be found online.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/index.htm

Their story is intriguing because in it the world is made as a trap for the evil god Angra Mainyu by the good god Ahura Mazda. When he is defeated (sometime in the future) the world will be remade as a retirement home for people who fought him by their good and honest acts.

Thanks for the link Richard.

I know some about Zoroastrianism, mainly through books that deal with Christianity or Islam describing the differences or clashes between the religions.

What stayed with me the most are the fire tempels which all represent the World-fire, the way Persian society prohibited lying (people believed lying further advanced the cause of Angra Mainyu in a very real way) and the way the religion was tied to Achaemid and later Sassanid rule. Oh, and the fact that not brushing your teeth was seen as a major religious no-no.

But with my cosmogony. I wanted to stay clear of the Good-Evil conundrum, so Zoroastrianism, although interesting, I cannot use.

Teinz · May 25, 2012

Gateway said:
That's the base of TREE OF LIFE.

Are you talking about the Bradd Pitt movie? Yggdrassil? The Holy Cross? The tree the Buddha sat under, while he reached enlightenment?

Teinz · May 25, 2012

Raventongue said:
The Earth was to be engulfed in molten metal, which would burn and torture each person until they were pure...

The Jews in exile and, through them, later the Christians and Muslims, added some Zoroastrian concepts to their worldviews...

That's what I always thought, too. Jewish Gehinnom and Christian Hell are comparable with the Zoroastrian concept.

RichardGarfinkle · May 25, 2012

Teinz said:
That's what I always thought, too. Jewish Gehinnom and Christian Hell are comparable with the Zoroastrian concept.

There are a number of concepts that entered Jewish folklore and through that Christianity that look like they have Zoroastrian origin. But there's a lot of scholarly dispute about it. The ones that I've found most interesting are

The idea of an enemy deity or spirit (Christian concept of Satan) as opposed to the Jewish concept of Satan which is a subsidiary spirit more like a prosecuting attorney than an enemy in war.

The idea of a Messiah. Zoroastrianism has the concept that three Messiahs will appear one every 2000 years until the end of the world.

The end of the world.

RichardGarfinkle · May 25, 2012

Teinz said:
Thanks for the link Richard.

I know some about Zoroastrianism, mainly through books that deal with Christianity or Islam describing the differences or clashes between the religions.

What stayed with me the most are the fire tempels which all represent the World-fire, the way Persian society prohibited lying (people believed lying further advanced the cause of Angra Mainyu in a very real way) and the way the religion was tied to Achaemid and later Sassanid rule. Oh, and the fact that not brushing your teeth was seen as a major religious no-no.

But with my cosmogony. I wanted to stay clear of the Good-Evil conundrum, so Zoroastrianism, although interesting, I cannot use.

Can you clarify what ideas you need to explore for your cosmogony? It would make it easier to find real world examples that fit. Assuming there are any. I like making cosmogonies that have no analogues. But that's just me.

Teinz · May 25, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Can you clarify what ideas you need to explore for your cosmogony? It would make it easier to find real world examples that fit. Assuming there are any. I like making cosmogonies that have no analogues. But that's just me.

Basically I've come up with the following punch-line: The Normal World (i.e. Creation, The Universe) is the mirror the Divine uses to reflect on itself. I interlace this with macrocosmic and microcosmic principles. So I guess my cosmogony is partly Gnostic or Alchemic.

But I'm interested most in the images that accompagnie creation stories. Why the slaying of mighty beasts (Marduk and Yahweh), the bringing of order (The Logos), the succession of Voids in the Maori example? I want to know their function. I want to infuse my story with those images.

RichardGarfinkle · May 25, 2012

Teinz said:
Basically I've come up with the following punch-line: The Normal World (i.e. Creation, The Universe) is the mirror the Divine uses to reflect on itself. I interlace this with macrocosmic and microcosmic principles. So I guess my cosmogony is partly Gnostic or Alchemic.

But I'm interested most in the images that accompagnie creation stories. Why the slaying of mighty beasts (Marduk and Yahweh), the bringing of order (The Logos), the succession of Voids in the Maori example? I want to know their function. I want to infuse my story with those images.

Their function in the stories is certainly intriguiging, and there's obviously a lot of debate among scholars about it. It may simply be an attempt to find images or words for ineffable concepts so the story tellers fall back on drama.

This does beg the question is your cosmogony meant to be what actually happened in your world or how the people tell the story of what happened?

The various gnostic cosmogonies tend toward fairly vivid stories, but they seem largely to answer the question how is it that pure souls are trapped in impure flesh and how can we get out?

Alchemic stories tend more toward connecting physical processes with spiritual meanings, so that the bubbling retort is also the transforming soul.

Which returns to my earlier question. Are you trying to write the story of what happened or the story people tell about what happened?

Teinz · May 25, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
The various gnostic cosmogonies tend toward fairly vivid stories, but they seem largely to answer the question how is it that pure souls are trapped in impure flesh and how can we get out?

Alchemic stories tend more toward connecting physical processes with spiritual meanings, so that the bubbling retort is also the transforming soul.

Both of these are elements that indeed play a role in my story.

RichardGarfinkle said:
Which returns to my earlier question. Are you trying to write the story of what happened or the story people tell about what happened?

With this, I intend to write the rules of my universe. The people however, will believe something entirely else.

It was a very good question though. It's something I regularly struggle with.

Trying to keep things straight can be a pain.

Thanks.

RichardGarfinkle · May 25, 2012

By the way, if you are interested in the Gnostics there's a book I can't recommend highly enough.
It's
The Tree of Gnosis: Gnostic Mythology from Early Christianity to Modern Nihilism by Ioan P. Couliano.

I'm sorry to say the book is out of print and expensive from used booksellers. But it's a fascinating study.

Teinz · May 25, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
By the way, if you are interested in the Gnostics there's a book I can't recommend highly enough.
It's
The Tree of Gnosis: Gnostic Mythology from Early Christianity to Modern Nihilism by Ioan P. Couliano.

I'm sorry to say the book is out of print and expensive from used booksellers. But it's a fascinating study.

Hmm, eighty bucks. There's a good used-book-shop in Utrecht, that has a vast English section, I'll give that a try first.

Beginnings of Beginnings

Teinz

Back at it again.

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

Teinz

Back at it again.

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Gateway

You Are My Density

Raventongue

little orphan anarchist

Teinz

Back at it again.

Teinz

Back at it again.

Teinz

Back at it again.

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Teinz

Back at it again.

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Teinz

Back at it again.

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes

Teinz

Back at it again.