How emotionally attached are you to your darlings?

not at all. I have no ego when it comes to my work. If someone can show me a better way, awesome.

I don't have any darlings, but as a critter, I won't rewrite someone's words, even to model an example. That's for them to do and figure out. It's their story and they need to do it themselves. (I don't mean that to sound harsh.) My job in the critique is to point out problem areas and make suggestions, not to offer my own version of a fix. There are ways to make suggestions that can help lead the writer in different directions, rather than rewrite in that direction. This is my approach to it, but others feel differently and that's fine.

This does raise a point, however. When someone's requesting a critique, be clear on what you'd like to receive, and ask the critter about their critique style. Start with the first two or three chapters to gauge whether its a critique relationship that you want and feel will be constructive for you. No need to waste anyone's time if, for example, you want a a line-by-line and they're style is to stick to big picture comments.

With a critique, given by a crit partner, it doesn't bother me. But an editor should never ever do that.

A copyeditor can suggest different wording, but a regular edit shouldn't include anything rewritten by the editor (to clarify: again, it can be a suggestions, as in "Don't think this quite works, how about saying X?" But your words deleted and the editor's written in? No). IMO, anyway.

Not at all. In fact, I don't have "darlings".

I write commercially. By which I mean, I write for specific markets with the intention to sell. I create a product, and it's not my job or my desire to "push the boundaries of art" or create a "masterpiece", it's just job and my desire to please readers and editors and to sell work. Part of that is taking critique, edits, changes, etc. and deciding whether they are helpful and how to best apply them to increase the sell-ability of my work.

So far it's working out pretty well.

I don't usually get too attached to the actual words. Sometimes I get disappointed if people tell me that a line doesn't work as well as I thought it did, but that's not really an attachment thing.

I get more attached to my characters.

For the most part, I've been fine. I need better readers, obviously, because some suggestions are because of vocabulary differences.

My semicolons, though, I defend those. Depending. But I don't tend to get my dander up all that much.

That attitude smacks of unprofessionalism. If a writer is so attached to their prose that they're offended when it's changed then they'll never get professionally published. No one ever writes golden, untouchable prose. Ever. If you're a writer, you'll be rewritten, and you'll be edited. Unless you publish it yourself. I know we writers are an egotistical bunch, but that's taking it a bit far.

Not at all. Like DancingMaenid, I get more attached to my characters than syntax. Which is what line-by-line critiques are, usually. Critiques about syntax. You're discussing technicality and style, neither of which are emotionally-charged things for me.

I'm disconnected to emotion. I throw my stuff together and put it out there. I look at suggestions and appreciate them...and feel grateful when I read a suggestion and see that it makes my piece better. But I don't even remember my characters' names. It's hard to have an intelligent discussion with someone who has read my work...because they bring up plot points, characters, etc...I can't even remember what piece they're talking about sometimes. I forget...because I disassociate everything. It's not intentional. I wish I could get an emotional attachment. I think a healthy one would be, well, healthy.

Pointing out grammatical errors and bad phrasing is one thing, but I've grown to believe that the "here, do exactly this instead" prescription is a terrible, terrible way to edit or critique, especially when the suggestions are not much of an improvement. I wrote a whole blog post in the subject called The Blue Shirt Theory which compares critiquing a story to answering the question "So, how does this outfit look?"

I used to write music reviews for a local magazine that didn't pay much beyond press passes, free albums and occasional swag, but the editor was a dear friend of mine so I did it as a favor to him. I recall writing him a review of a live show and he sent it back to me with some revisions that didn't sit well with me. I pointed out that it no longer read like something I'd written--it read like something he'd written. I took his suggestions and rewrote the sentences so they matched what he wanted, but fitted my voice.

I don't think it's being too precious to say "yeah, you have a point there, but that is NOT the way I would phrase it if I were to fix it."

not very. I mentioned this is the "what's your favorite line you wrote" thread. I don't have any. I hope they all do their jobs. I don't fall in love with my own words.

What I resist in critique comes from laziness. If someone tells me I have to take a whole character out of a 100K novel, or even a 8000 word story, I do balk, but because I know it'll actually be more work than writing a whole new novel. But I don't get peeved. I sigh.

I've only had an editor change words once, and she was dead on correct. It was some cut and paste disaster I didn't catch, and the sentence on the page made no earthly sense. (nor would it have made sense on a moon or asteroid). The poor woman was so tentative in mentioning this "one little thing" I could tell she was gun shy from writers screaming at her over correcting errors.

For me, if someone rewrote a phrase of mine to illustrate a point, I'd either think it was helpful and use the advice and/or the rewrite, or think it wasn't helpful and disregard it.

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Precisely

If someone brings up a point that resonates, fine, I can work with it (cut if I have to) If serveral people bring up the same point.. then darlings or not, they need to GO.

Rephrasing is not :you need to to write it this way or else' (mostly) it's more 'have you thought about...' or that;s how I take it.

IdiotsRUs said:

Rephrasing is not :you need to to write it this way or else' (mostly) it's more 'have you thought about...' or that;s how I take it.

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This.

If I get attached to anything it's concepts, not words. If someone else can find me a better way to communicate the concept, I'm all over that.

Sarashay said:

Pointing out grammatical errors and bad phrasing is one thing, but I've grown to believe that the "here, do exactly this instead" prescription is a terrible, terrible way to edit or critique, especially when the suggestions are not much of an improvement. I wrote a whole blog post in the subject called The Blue Shirt Theory which compares critiquing a story to answering the question "So, how does this outfit look?"

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That's actually a pretty good metaphor. It's one thing to ask someone for their honest feedback on how you look. They might catch details you've missed, or suggest a dress shirt instead of a t-shirt. But once they start tearing the clothes off your back, they've crossed a line.

It's really not kosher to rewrite someone's prose for them. Pointing out mistakes in grammar or awkward phrasing is always welcome, of course, as well as striking out unnecessary words. But it isn't the critiquer's responsibility to write for the author. It's the author's.

Words are words to me. I'm far more involved with my characters. If you are willing to take the time and help me, I will listen or read with an open mind without the butt-hurt drama.

L.

I was one who said I hated people writing in stuff. I should clarify.

Someone telling me why my construction doesn't work--yes, please. I mean that. Please tell me, any way you can. Rewrite it if that's the easiest way to get the point across. That's totally cool.

What's only happened once but really stuck with me was when a beta went through and added words to my descriptions, often modifying the meaning.

Saying a dude's built like a dancer is a bit different from saying he looks like an exotic dancer.

I rewrite things all the time for the people I beta - it's illustration, not demand. With new people (to me) I'll point out that it's a suggestion ("maybe something like this"), but with people I've worked with for some time, they know. If a beta does that with me, no problem. It's also very useful for knowing if they're seeing things the way I intended or not.

HoneyBadger said:

Sure, but if an author wants to improve and is asking for feedback, why is rearranging his/her words offensive? Is it any more offensive than pointing out grammatical errors? Is it any more offensive or not-kosher than pointing out misused words, plot holes, tense issues, etc?

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If someone asks for critique, they're asking for feedback. Feedback does not entail manually rewriting their prose for them. To borrow Sarashay's metaphor again, if I were to ask you for feedback on my outfit, I'm not asking you to undress me, then redress me in something of your choosing.

There is definitely a line there, but it's a hazy one and exists in a different place for everyone. I, personally, don't see anything wrong with readjusting someone's prose by inserting, removing a couple words here and there. But rewriting whole sentences and/or paragraphs is pushing it too far.

Of course, if they specifically ask for help with their prose, then that's a completely different story. Rewrite away! But critique is feedback, not a rewrite.

HoneyBadger said:

This? I totally understand. That's just obnoxious. Figuring out which advice is good and which is bad is key to not just writing, but general daily life, though it doesn't make the bad advice any less irritating (though, for me, the *most* irritating advice is often *right.*)

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Definitely. It only happened once but really stuck with me (probably more than it should have. ) Just one of those ignore and keep going things.

For the most part, any critique I can get is helpful.

But for me, Agented+Published > darling.

every time.

HoneyBadger said:

But, see, no.

Taking someone's clothes off and redressing them is a violation of personal space and boundaries. It's dehumanizing and controlling.

Words, though. Words are just words. I use words with great purpose, but even still, it doesn't feel like I'm being *violated* to have someone do any damn thing they want with my words. This is very much why I started this thread; why does it feel akin to a personal violation?

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Yeah, but you could say the same thing about clothes. Clothes are just clothes. Space is just space. What's the big deal?

The real problem here is a rewrite and a critique are different things. A critique does not include a rewrite. It's better to either ask the author's permission first, or wait until they ask for suggestions.

I don't care if somebody wants to rewrite my lines in a critique. Chances are good I'll react negatively to a rewritten critique, since it's not going to be in my voice. I prefer a critique that explains why X doesn't work and suggestions on how to make it work. I find those much more useful. But I wouldn't be upset by a rewritten critique. Probably just roll my eyes at it because the critiquer didn't get it.