are authors artists?

Mustafa · Apr 18, 2012

I hear people who write, and haven't been published talking about how being a 'starving artist' is just one of the trials all "artists" must endure. I never really thought of writers as artists and when people suggest it, I always find it a bit pretentious.

Is that just me? Do you guys think authors are artists?

RKLipman · Apr 18, 2012

I absolutely think that writers are artists - there's a reason an MFA is a Master of Fine Arts, after all.

However, the minute I find out someone is the type to believe that You Must Suffer For Your Art (Or You're A Sell-Out And Capitalist Pig), I'm running in the other direction.

gothicangel · Apr 18, 2012

Mustafa said:
I hear people who write, and haven't been published talking about how being a 'starving artist' is just one of the trials all "artists" must endure. I never really thought of writers as artists and when people suggest it, I always find it a bit pretentious.

Is that just me? Do you guys think authors are artists?

Well, anyone who is willing to starve in the name of art, needs to see a psychologist and fast.

But yes, literature is an category of the arts, just like muscians, philosophers, photographers and painters.

HoneyBadger · Apr 18, 2012

Yes, of course authors are artists.

readitnweep · Apr 18, 2012

I'm surprised that anyone would think creative writing wouldn't be considered an art form.

Toothpaste · Apr 18, 2012

Of course we're artists. As gothic says, literature belongs in the arts category. Now, what artist means to you is another thing. "Artist" isn't inherently pretentious or anything. It's just that some use the term that way. The word itself is quite innocuous.

But yes, yes we are. Does it make us superior to others? No. Does it make our griefs more painful than the griefs of others? Uh no. It just means we are pursuing a particular path.

heza · Apr 18, 2012

Maybe part of the confusion is that we often refer to writing as a "craft," so some assume we're a type of crafter.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 18, 2012

Coincidentally, I am an artist but not a writer. So I can unequivocally say:

Yes. Yes, writers are artists. You take ideas and craft them into things out in the world to convey meaning to other people. That's what artists do.

Starving in a garret, now, that's a piece of romantic nonsense that's a disservice to artists everywhere. Don't get me started on art schools and their lack of practical business courses, or the cultural prejudices that try to stuff artists into an unfunded, free labor ghetto. Being a starving artist is not a trial to endure, it's a consequence of deliberate government policy choices and stupid romanticism.

sassandgroove · Apr 18, 2012

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 18, 2012

heza said:
Maybe part of the confusion is that we often refer to writing as a "craft," so some assume we're a type of crafter.

Craft is the physical processes required to make art. Crafters may or may not be artists -- I think more are than people realize, even the crafters themselves -- but all artists are crafters.

Discord · Apr 18, 2012

Alessandra Kelley said:
Starving in a garret, now, that's a piece of romantic nonsense that's a disservice to artists everywhere.

With you there. It's like, just because artists enjoy what they do they get taken advantage of (i.e. expected to work for free) Then the fact that they don't get paid much (or at all) gets turned around and used as a badge of honour when what it really is is the devaluation of their work.

I love art. I love artists. I think the work we do is important for everybody. That's why I think we deserve a decent wage (nothing extravagant, but decent). If someone pegs me as a sell-out because of that, I would advise them to grow up.

heza · Apr 18, 2012

Alessandra Kelley said:
Craft is the physical processes required to make art. Crafters may or may not be artists -- I think more are than people realize, even the crafters themselves -- but all artists are crafters.

Didn't say crafters can't make art or that artists never craft. I was suggesting that, as a group, we use language about our work that brings up associations with applied arts more often than fine arts.

veinglory · Apr 18, 2012

The one's that are, are. The ones that aren't, aren't. And many sometimes are and sometimes aren't. Not everything I write is art.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 18, 2012

Discord said:
With you there. It's like, just because artists enjoy what they do they get taken advantage of (i.e. expected to work for free) Then the fact that they don't get paid much (or at all) gets turned around and used as a badge of honour when what it really is is the devaluation of their work.

I love art. I love artists. I think the work we do is important for everybody. That's why I think we deserve a decent wage (nothing extravagant, but decent). If someone pegs me as a sell-out because of that, I would advise them to grow up.

Personal trainers average $25 per hour. I think artists should not be expected to work for less than that.

Artists enjoy what they do, sure, but in exactly the same way as anybody with a calling or profession: bankers, ministers, homebuilders, shopkeepers, architects, hairdressers, pilots. It's not like people get paid more for doing work they hate, so why do people argue that artist should be paid less for doing something they love? (answer: to see if they can get away with it)

Artists are taught a sort of unworldly deliberate naïveté that leaves them prey to exploitation. That may be ok if art is not your profession, just something you do on the side because it's cool, but it's no way to run a small business.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 18, 2012

heza said:
Didn't say crafters can't make art or that artists never craft. I was suggesting that, as a group, we use language about our work that brings up associations with applied arts more often than fine arts.

I'm saying they're the same thing. Art and craft are not separate entities.

You can't make art without craft (although you can craft things without art).

And the separation between applied arts and fine arts is an artificial and relatively recent one.

Discord · Apr 18, 2012

Craft.... Art....

Eh... semantics. You may be right, but the discussion makes my eyelid twitch.

A person that restores antique furniture can be called a craftsman/woman because they practice an artful, learned skill. Are they an artist? Well, they are making something beautiful, applying their creativity to it. Does that count?

A chef that invents delicious and aesthetically pleasing meals? A photographer that takes pictures of objects he/she didn't create? A stand-up comedian? An interior decorator? An architect?

I honestly don't know which word applies where. But the idea of dividing people that make creative things into two categories makes me a bit uncomfortable.

I once had a class debate where the consensus was that "craftspeople" create things of utilitarian value that are also beautiful, while "artists" create things simply to be beautiful. That seems somewhat problematic to me in other ways. I dunno.

Filigree · Apr 18, 2012

I did a thesis on that very divide, about 20 some years ago. The 'fine' arts divided from 'craft' only a few hundred years ago. It's why I refer to myself as an artisan, and rarely an artist. For me, the physical and material skills are just as important as the nebulous subjectivity of 'inspiration'.

And as Alessandra points out, that whole 'artists must suffer for their art' is a crock of crap. Poverty and stress don't help artists mature or refine, quite the opposite.

I could write another thesis on the ways creativity counts in our modern world, or the billion-dollar-industry reintroducing timid adults to the joys of making stuff, but I won't. I charge between $15 and $55 per hour for my artistic skills. I've been at my chosen obsessions for 25 years, and in one case, for 32 years. I have work in museums, university special collections, corporate collections, published coffee-table art books, and many private collections.

I'm still an 'emerging artist', in that I'm not that well known, and I'll always be learning my craft. I'm also a writer, just now beginning to sell my mms. I don't find much difference in the disciplines.

KelsNotChels · Apr 18, 2012

I'm not sure about every writer, but I know that I consider myself to be an artist. I'm a singer/songwriter/actress/writer so it's easier to consider my writing to be just another form of creative expression.

Perhaps if I only wrote, I would consider it to be another facet of creation, but as I create in other ways, it all mixes together, and feels very similar to me.

Devil Ledbetter · Apr 18, 2012

Writers are artists. There is nothing inherently pretentious about being an artist, nor is there any requirement to starve for the sake of art.

Susan Coffin · Apr 18, 2012

veinglory said:
The one's that are, are. The ones that aren't, aren't. And many sometimes are and sometimes aren't. Not everything I write is art.

Love this.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 18, 2012

Discord said:
I once had a class debate where the consensus was that "craftspeople" create things of utilitarian value, that are also beautiful, while "artists" create things simply to be beautiful. That seems somewhat problematic to me in other ways. I dunno.

(First off, I recognize that you're not endorsing that argument. I'm not arguing with you, but it.)

I've heard that argument, and it drives me buggy. It derives from the nineteenth century attempts to rank a superiority scale of "pure" art. Before that fine art and crafts were not considered separate (i.e. oil painting was related to coach and wagon painting; many artists also made furniture and housewares and stage sets and weapons and garments and so forth)

It's insulting to artists and breathtakingly dismissive of the arts, because it implies that art has no meaning or purpose except beauty and that there is no utility to beauty, both of which are utterly false. It would have astonished the artists and audiences of Buddhist mandalas, for example.

Never mind that there are plenty of examples of art that are not beautiful because they are deliberately using ugliness for powerful effect. The uselessness implied in that definition is part of why art is seen as unimportant and not worth paying for.

In fact, I can see how both sides of that argument lead to miserly stinting of both craftspeople and artists. In both cases people can get highly useful and beautiful things for cheap, because of how they have defined them.

Discord · Apr 18, 2012

Filigree said:
Poverty and stress don't help artists mature or refine, quite the opposite.

The only circumstance in which I would disagree with you is if you are writing about poverty and stress. Obviously, if you want to tackle these subjects, you are better off having lived them than just speculating on them. If you've been living a middle-class life, then you're better equipped writing from a middle class perspective. Both perspectives are art, though.

Okay, seriously now, I need to stop procrastinating on AW and actually do some writing. See you guys in a few hours, when my self-discipline melts.

StoryG27 · Apr 18, 2012

This:

veinglory said:
The one's that are, are. The ones that aren't, aren't. And many sometimes are and sometimes aren't. Not everything I write is art.

and this:

Devil Ledbetter said:
Writers are artists. There is nothing inherently pretentious about being an artist, nor is there any requirement to starve for the sake of art.

These were my first thoughts after reading the OP.

As far as having perspective or real life experience to write a certain POV (poor to write a poor character, i.e.), I don't believe it. I think many writers are naturally observant and inquisitive and have the ability if not desire to imagine themselves in a different life with different circumstances. This is just IMHO, of course.

Mustafa · Apr 18, 2012

I guess I just think that the term "artist" is a bit overused. If someone drew a series of stick men and declared himself an artist, I'd think him insane. Same goes for someone who writes something of 'stick-man' quality.

I dunno. I guess I'm missing the boat on this one. Thanks for the input guys.

heza · Apr 18, 2012

Alessandra Kelley said:
I'm saying they're the same thing. Art and craft are not separate entities.

Great. Now, what is it you think I'm saying... because this feels like one of the more pointless arguments I've been in.

are authors artists?

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