Can books really be "Bad" for you??

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Mustafa

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Yesterday, with a group of friends, the topic of "Twilight" came up. I for one think Stephanie Meyer is a genius who sliced into a market with the precision of a world class surgeon and sold millions of books to prove it. But easily 90% of my friends in that group thought it was the worst book ever written, that it harmed youth and was actually "BAD" for people to read. Perhaps the most laughable argument, that was made in all seriousness was, and I quote, "it was only that successful because it was a Mormon conspiracy." The latter, I'm afraid, shows a level of ignorance which later turned into an embarrassing display of bigotry that I won't bother repeating.

But it got me thinking, why is it that there is such vitriol over these books. I'm a guy. I am not a Mormon. I read the books and while I didn't love them, I didn't hate them either. I'd say I was on the edge of like and indifferent to them. I've certainly read worse. It is truly bizarre that people not only 'didn't like' the books, but they truly hate them. I mean, hate hate. It doesn't make any sense to me. There are books that I really didn't enjoy, but they don't elicit that kind of hatred.

Do you think it's just people following a trend to dislike this book, or do you think it's just some strange social phenomenon?
 

Amadan

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Meyer wasn't a genius, she was just lucky.

Twilight isn't the worst book ever. It's not well-written and it's full of really ugly messages, but there is certainly an element of misogyny in the vitriol (it's something overwhelmingly loved by teenage girls; therefore, crap).

There's also an element of people who like to hate really popular things on principle.

Also, this is approximately the ten billionth Twilight thread. :p
 

RKLipman

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My opinion: A qualified yes. If it is read, but not critically, if it is unchallenged, if it is not recognized as problematic? Absolutely, books can do harm. Untold amounts of it. See any religious text of your choice for an example.

The longer answer: I wrote a blog post on this exact topic, which I will partially plagiarize for the purposes of this post:

It’s always a slippery slope to talk about media in this way, because it seems easy to segue into arguments that I don’t believe to be true, about both society and the media. I am not one of those people who thinks that rap music or rock and roll or video games – or books – are going to have kids walk into their schools with a gun, or hold up a gas station, or try to overthrow the government of an Eastern European country. I don’t.

But to act like the media we consume has no effect on us, and even less on young people – I think is dead wrong.

So let’s break this down into some things I Believe Are True before tackling some of the really loaded stuff that permeates this conversation.

1. Unintentional or not, every piece of entertainment media has a message or messages that it communicates to its audience.

2. These messages may be and often are problematic or upsetting in any number of ways.

3. These messages can serve as a reinforcement of various kinds of cultural hegemony: reinforcing the importance of men’s roles while minimizing women’s; propagating racist tropes or parroting racist behavior without challenging it; reinforcing the default assumption that all people are heterosexual and GLBT folks are both ‘othered’ and all alike in some way.

4. This reinforcement of already fucked-up cultural ideas can be damaging to the people on the wrong side of hegemony.

I don't think I'm super-awesome or have anything wildly original to say, but there was a huge resurgence of this topic around the time the first Breaking Dawn film was released, so.
 

Mustafa

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I think it's been said time and time again that there is really no "luck" in publishing. I believe that. you don't sell over 50 million books on luck.

There could be things the characters in the books do that you don't agree with, or that you think perpetuate a belief, but that's what makes the characters real, right? Books aren't meant to be politically correct. They're meant to portray real people, and many real people have beliefs that differ from other people's beliefs. A book about sparkly vampires will no more make a girl like a bad guy than a book about a boy wizzard will make kids turn to witchcraft (not that I think witchcraft is a bad thing. I've never studied it so I don't really have an opinion, but I'm sure wiccans (sp?) are perfectly nice people.).

I guess I've just never seen this kind of thing before. Even among my friends who HATE the books. We've discussed other books in the past and they've never seemed the type to hate a piece of literature. I guess I just find the whole thing rather excessive.

I see your point, RK, about religious texts causing problems, but that is different. Religious texts are seen as non-fiction by those who believe. Fiction is, well, fiction. I think people who think novels, like twilight, are dangerous don't give kids enough credit.
 

Jamesaritchie

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If you believe books can do good, you have to believe they can do harm. But Meyer was not lucky, she was talented.

And you need to find a new group of friends.
 

Mustafa

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If you believe books can do good, you have to believe they can do harm. But Meyer was not lucky, she was talented.

And you need to find a new group of friends.

Honestly, my friends are usually so level headed. I don't mind people being critical of the books. It's the hatred that I have a problem with (eta: or rather the hatred that I find so peculiar). But after the bigotry I saw in a couple of my friends yesterday, I think you might be right about freeing up a few slots in my inner circle.
 

Mustafa

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RK - I just read your blog post. We disagree on a few things, but I see your point and I liked that you weren't discouraging people from reading the books.
 

RobJ

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But easily 90% of my friends in that group thought it was the worst book ever written, that it harmed youth and was actually "BAD" for people to read.
Harmed them how? Bad in what way? You don't actually tell us what harm they believe the book caused.
 

goldmund

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I think it's been said time and time again that there is really no "luck" in publishing. I believe that. you don't sell over 50 million books on luck.

Well, whoever "said that time and time again" was wrong.

You can write a moderately successful book by planning, but only if it's a rip-off of a currently popular book, and most often you'll be too late.

Harry Potter, Millenium, Da Vinci Code --

J.K. Rowling sat one time and thought:
"Ah, I'd gladly earn $10.000.000 or so. I know, why not write a book about a teenage wizard boy? This is a goldmine, everybody knows that."

Dan Brown:
"I'm a bit short on dough. Let's write about Holy Grail and Christ -- this is the most popular subject of pop-culture and people will buy my book like crazy!"

Stieg Larsson:
"Man, female hackers are hot shit, everybody wants to read about them. And everyone loves long, stilted titles! To the typewriter!"

Come on. :)
 
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Christine N.

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I hate Twilight.

They are poorly written with cardboard characters. The last book I actually wrote a blog post about how she cheaped out on what could have been an epic ending, spent too much time showing us a gun that never went off, and was far too protective of her characters. I hate that Bella fell apart every time Edward stepped out of the room. I think it's a ridiculous series that happened to touch on something teenage girls (arguably vulnerable and already self-conscious about themselves and their desirability) responded to.

I can pick it apart and tell you eight ways it went wrong. You can call it sour grapes, I call it frustration at crap selling 80 million copies.

That being said: It wasn't all bad. I loved Alice and Jacob. Meyer's secondary characters were much more thoroughly drawn and interesting than her main characters, I didn't completely hate Eclipse.

I actually like the movies better than the books, and that's saying something. As films, they aren't bad sit-at-home eating junk food and letting your mind turn to mush entertainment. I am more likely to pop in the DVD than ever pick up the book again.

They're only bad for you, IMO, if people accept that type of writing as usual and hold it up as the epitome of something excellent. They're not excellent. People liked it, people bought it. To each his own. If it gets them reading more frequently, eventually they will find better books and refine their palate.

And that can only be a good thing.
 

Mustafa

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Well, whoever "said that time and time again" was wrong.

You can write a moderately successful book by planning, but only if it's a rip-off of a currently popular book, and most often you'll be too late.

Harry Potter, Millenium, Da Vinci Code --

J.K. Rowling sat one time and thought:
"Ah, I'd gladly earn $10.000.000 or so. I know, what not write a book about a teenage wizard boy? This is a goldmine, everybody knows that."

Dan Brown:
"I'm a bit short on dough. Let's write about Holy Grail and Christ -- this is the most popular subject of pop-culture and people will buy my book like crazy!"

Stieg Larsson:
"Man, female hackers are hot shit, everybody wants to read about them. And everyone loves long, stilted titles! To the typewriter!"

Come on. :)


With all due respect, the people who believe "luck" plays into publishing are usually bitter writers who lack the skill of those "lucky" few but need a reason that they haven't broken into the market yet. I am not saying that to be mean, I'm saying that because the doors that have to open to get an agent, to get a publisher, to get that book onto the market, to get it distributed nationally and internationally, to get attention by media and word-of-mouth, are so many that "luck" really doesn't play into it. Timing, sure, but only combined with skill.
 

Mustafa

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Harmed them how? Bad in what way? You don't actually tell us what harm they believe the book caused.

They said it made girls think that the perfect man will sneak into your room at night, or try to control you. I tried to point out that some of them (my friends) were girls and they didn't think that kind of relationship was "good." But they were adamant.

Further they said the writing was awful and that its going to inspire a generation of poor writers. I said that was ludicrous, that four books will no more teach a kid how to write a book at a professional level than four times in a car will teach you how to drive at a professional level, but my arguments fell on deaf ears.

There were other "dangers" that they associated with her religion but I actually don't feel comfortable repeating them because I actually found them pretty disturbing. Not the beliefs, the fact that someone could be that bigoted to that extreme and seem oblivious to the fact.
 

Mustafa

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cardboard characters, poorly executed ending, flat story...all valid criticisms. It's the "destroyer of society" and "harming our nations youth" that I have issue with. Not just for Twilight. Any book. I just don't think novels have that kind of power.
 

Christine N.

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Yeah, I don't believe any of that. I think that anyone who tried to write in Meyer's style and turn it in to an agent or publisher will get an almost instant rejection.

Books are like films-- something better will come along and take the place of this tripe, and it will be forgotten. Except in the case of Harry Potter, that seems to be hanging on forever, but that is now a classic piece of children's literature. I don't think Twilight will ever be on that list, so no danger.


Yeah, no, not going to be the destroyer of anything I don't think. They said the same things about HP when it first hit it big. Still one of the most challenged books in libraries due to 'occult themes'. People who actually make that claim have no idea what the 'occult' actually is, then.
 

Amadan

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My point about Meyer being lucky is that you said:

I for one think Stephanie Meyer is a genius who sliced into a market with the precision of a world class surgeon and sold millions of books to prove it.

This implies that Meyer set out to become a millionaire bestseller, with a plan that she conceived and successfully executed to do so.

I'm sure like any other author, she hoped her book would sell a lot and make her a ton of money, but I don't think she was a genius who wrote Twilight with the latest market research in hand. I very much doubt she had any idea how much of a phenomenon it would become. And there is certainly an element of luck involved in a book taking off like that.
 

goldmund

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With all due respect, the people who believe "luck" plays into publishing are usually bitter writers who lack the skill of those "lucky" few but need a reason that they haven't broken into the market yet.
I am not saying that to be mean, I'm saying that because the doors that have to open to get an agent, to get a publisher, to get that book onto the market, to get it distributed nationally and internationally, to get attention by media and word-of-mouth, are so many that "luck" really doesn't play into it. Timing, sure, but only combined with skill.

Baby, write your bestseller then and be sure to let us know. :-D

No need for reservations about "not being mean" etc., I really prefer to be unsuccessful than write like Stephanie Meyer. :-D
 

leahzero

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Really? Meyer's talent alone sold that many books? You don't think marketing, timeliness, or a burgeoning paranormal romance boom (of which she happened to ride the crest) had anything to do with it?

Does anyone seriously think we'll be reading Twilight in fifty years?

Meyer was indeed lucky. She had the right book at the right time. Is she "talented?" Maybe in sensing where the market was going.

As for "hating" Twilight, there are many, many discussions of its flaws on this forum, and in many other places online. Here are some of the reasons I dislike the books: bad writing; unrealistic characters; internalized misogyny; Mormon agenda; unhealthy relationships and sexual behavior promoted as "normal" to impressionable teens...the list goes on.
 

Christine N.

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What Amadan said.

Luck has a great deal to do with what becomes a hit and what doesn't. Harry Potter was turned down 23 times or something before it found a home. While the author of THE HISTORIAN was paid one million dollars in advance money and the book tanked. It happens all the time -- books that publishers put all their marketing behind end up in the remainder bin and books with no push at all sell out 3 printings.

Even publishers do not know what will make a bestseller, or else they'd only buy those manuscripts and we'd only write them. Some of it IS luck.
 

leahzero

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It's the "destroyer of society" and "harming our nations youth" that I have issue with. Not just for Twilight. Any book. I just don't think novels have that kind of power.

Stories have that kind of power when you're an impressionable teenager, and all your friends will talk about is this book/movie, and to fit in you read or watch it, and because you don't have any real experience yet with relationships, you think a man stalking and controlling a much younger woman is normal and romantic.
 

Amadan

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They said it made girls think that the perfect man will sneak into your room at night, or try to control you. I tried to point out that some of them (my friends) were girls and they didn't think that kind of relationship was "good." But they were adamant.

Well, certainly there are plenty of Twilight fans who love it despite recognizing how unrealistic and unhealthy the Edward/Bella relationship is. But I have seen more than a few girls stating outright that they think it's really romantic and they wish they had a boyfriend who loved them as much as Edward loves Bella. I have seen girls (and authors) swooning over how "hot" the guy is in some Twilight-imitators with even worse relationships (like Hush, Hush). So I don't think it's completely off-base to think Twilight is giving at least some people some really unhealthy ideas of what love looks like.
 

aoliver

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I think a book CAN be harmful, if it's read by the wrong audience. Readers should understand the genre before reading (ie, YA isn't appropriate for MG).
 

Mustafa

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I think a book CAN be harmful, if it's read by the wrong audience. Readers should understand the genre before reading (ie, YA isn't appropriate for MG).

Okay, I'd agree with that. I wouldn't want to see an eight year old reading The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. (I loved that book btw... but I'm a bit older than eight)
 

Drachen Jager

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Any mass-market product, taken as a staple is bad for you.

Watching too much "Housewives", eating too much McDonalds, listening to too much top 40 pop drivel and playing too many stupid video games will all ruin your brain and/or body.

There are disagreements about what constitutes "too much" of course, which is fair. Any exposure will deaden creativity, create misleading role-modelling or cause health problems to some degree, but most of them won't cause appreciable damage if taken irregularly and in small doses.
 

Jessianodel

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I personally hate the Twilight series. However the one good thing about it is that it caused tons of teenage girls who otherwise were not reading to read. And when they finished with Twilight, they started to move onto to slightly better books like Hunger Games. So hopefully they will eventually cause them to start reading not just "popular" books but good ones. And therefore, more people will read. So no, I don't think it's bad to read it. It's just not what I think is close to the best out there.
 

gothicangel

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This implies that Meyer set out to become a millionaire bestseller, with a plan that she conceived and successfully executed to do so.

I'm sure like any other author, she hoped her book would sell a lot and make her a ton of money, but I don't think she was a genius who wrote Twilight with the latest market research in hand. I very much doubt she had any idea how much of a phenomenon it would become. And there is certainly an element of luck involved in a book taking off like that.

This.
It reminds me of a quote that Rosemary Sutcliff said.

I just wrote the books I wanted to read, and luckily people wanted to read them too.

Now that lady was a genius . . . and still hitting the bestseller lists sixty years after the book was first published.
 
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