Writing Westerns / Writing Short Stories / Critting Westerns

BAY

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Wow, some really great comments to think about. I think one of the biggest problems is getting the speech pattern right. In my head, I think western men weren't too chatty. Now, I'm not sure where it comes from, but I think I can safely blame Clint Eastwood. Flinty glare, tobacco spit, and draw. I also don't think they were softies, don't know where that comes from either, but I won't blame Clint for that.

Why don't we list what we think might be wrong. Did anyone really call cows little doggies?
 

Puma

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"Whoopee ti yi yo,
Git along, little dogies,
It's your misfortune
And none of my own;
Whoopee ti yi yo,
Git along, little dogies,
You know that Wyoming
Will be your new home."

Yep. But it's dogies (dough-gies). There's a wealth of information in old cowboy songs, the real ones from the 19th century. Puma
 

Dave Hardy

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Wow, some really great comments to think about. I think one of the biggest problems is getting the speech pattern right. In my head, I think western men weren't too chatty. Now, I'm not sure where it comes from, but I think I can safely blame Clint Eastwood. Flinty glare, tobacco spit, and draw. I also don't think they were softies, don't know where that comes from either, but I won't blame Clint for that.

Why don't we list what we think might be wrong. Did anyone really call cows little doggies?

A lot my characters spit and glare. I sort was like that myself. I used to dip snuff, yeah being a teenager in Florida's like that.

It's dogie, with one "g". The rulers of Medieval Venice ran a lot of cattle. ;)

Good 19th century dialog is hard. I try and re-read Ambrose Bierce and Mark Twain from time to time, just to keep the fires up. That may not be the best way, who needs a bad Ambrose Bierce imitator? I'm open to fresh suggestions.
 

Dave Hardy

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Why don't we list what we think might be wrong.

I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but I have scant patience for the old quick-draw showdown carried to utter stylization.

I don't claim to depict violence with utter realism. But when people intend to use violence, they tend not to get overly concerned about the niceties of who's faster. They just go to shooting and count on a fast horse or friends on the grand jury. Being accurate counts for more, as does presence of mind. The quick-draw always feels like a second-hand shtick from a TV Western.

Now that I've said it, someone will point out a half-dozen fictional quick-draw duels handled with such verve that even I have to admit they're good. But until then, I am officially anti-quick-draw.
 

Literateparakeet

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The quick-draw always feels like a second-hand shtick from a TV Western.

You know I misread part of your post. I thought you said that people don't just shoot one round, they're scared and shoot several times. It reminded me of Puma's comment on my story (Saloon Girls) about the fallacy of the one-shot kill.

I could revise my story and have Rose empty the gun. Shoot the bad guy, what 6 times? Ahhh, I love that idea.

(Don't mind me, I just want to kill bad guys tonight.)
 

Puma

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I think part of the answer, reality, of quick draw duels may actually lie in the history of dueling in the US before the wild west, i.e., didn't Aaron Burr kill Alexander Hamilton in a duel on Blennerhasset Island in the Ohio River? That duel, and there are probably others, should be fairly well documented, as in, we might be able to gain some insights there. Puma
 

EddyJ

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I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but I have scant patience for the old quick-draw showdown carried to utter stylization.


Now that I've said it, someone will point out a half-dozen fictional quick-draw duels handled with such verve that even I have to admit they're good. But until then, I am officially anti-quick-draw.

OK, so I've got to take the bait:

Dean Martin as Dude in Rio Bravo fast drawing & shooting the gun out of the hand of one of Nathan Burdette's thugs.

Of course that is only out done by the greatest Western of them all, Blazing Saddles, where Gene Wilder pulls off the same feat as Dean Martin, but is so fast you never actually see him pull the six gun!
 

Dave Hardy

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OK, so I've got to take the bait:

Dean Martin as Dude in Rio Bravo fast drawing & shooting the gun out of the hand of one of Nathan Burdette's thugs.

Of course that is only out done by the greatest Western of them all, Blazing Saddles, where Gene Wilder pulls off the same feat as Dean Martin, but is so fast you never actually see him pull the six gun!

"I heard a voice say, 'Reach for it mister!' I spun around and... There I was, face-to-face with a six-ear old kid. Well I threw down my guns and walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass." :D
 

EddyJ

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"I heard a voice say, 'Reach for it mister!' I spun around and... There I was, face-to-face with a six-ear old kid. Well I threw down my guns and walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass." :D

With lines of dialogue like that, and scenes of cowboys sitting around a campfire eating beans and farting, how can it not be the greatest Hollywood western of all time!
 

Dave Hardy

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With lines of dialogue like that, and scenes of cowboys sitting around a campfire eating beans and farting, how can it not be the greatest Hollywood western of all time!

I think I've seen it more than any other Western.

Here's an odd thing, I have been reading De Arment's biography of Frank Canton (alias of escaped convict Joe Horner). As a Deputy US Marshal, Canton had a difficulty with Bee Dunn. Anyway Dunn came to town and Canton figured trouble was fixin' to happen.

According to Canton, Dunn reached for his gun, but hesitated. Or caught it on his clothing. Wither way, Canton was faster and shot Dunn in the head. The quick draw is vindicated?

Except the Dunn family tells it differently. The version handed down by them is that Canton came up behind Dunn, called his name, and when he turned, shot him between the eyes.

There's always two sides...
 

redneckballerina

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Oh, my pet peeve in westerns (or any story, really) is a blatant misunderstanding of how horses work. You can't assume they're just dirt bikes with hooves. Even making exceptions for differences in tack/technique/training philosophies between now and then, I've read some doozies in the slush pile where the writers obviously had no experience with horses _at all._ If your main character is a cowboy with a reputation for being a great horseman, he better not try to tighten the "lead rope" around his horse's barrel. :D
 

Tex_Maam

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"I heard a voice say, 'Reach for it mister!' I spun around and... There I was, face-to-face with a six-ear old kid. Well I threw down my guns and walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass." :D

I wrote, no lie, THREE college papers on Blazing Saddles. I think I've had more fun watching that movie than I EVER did playing chess. Or screwing.


To the topic, though: I think what sells me on Westerns is how so many of them throw almost-modern humanity all the way back to Beowulf. The world is vast and dark and savage, and there is nobody outside the light from your own campfire who can or will help you, and no matter how able or careful you are, the Good Lord might STILL take you off in the blink of an eye, and you'll never see it coming.

Maybe it gives me the shivers because that was the reality in which whole generations of people actually lived and died, or maybe it's because we've done such a good job of forgetting that feeling ourselves (we're pretty insulated in our towns and cities, and like to think that except for cancer or a runaway bus, we can probably plan for a good 80 years anyway). But more than any single plotline or period-accurate wardrobe, what sells me on Westerns is how starkly they highlight the tissue-paper quality of everything we call civilization.

You know, especially when the aliens invade.
 

Puma

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Good insight, Tex Maam. That's also why I like historicals about the American frontier all the way across the land. It was not an easy life - the idea of a toddler falling out of a wagon, being run over by the wheels, hastily buried by the trail, and the wagons moving on with no time to mourn is stark reality - there was no time for anyone to feel sorry for themselves - they had to keep going or die. IMO we're still short on good stories about the American frontier that aren't tied to wars and important events. Puma
 

bkendall

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I see a few different things here. I think you have to have genre definitions to a certain extent. Otherwise, we would essentially just be writing stories with no way to categorize them. I know that's a little extreme but you could boil it down to that. However, I'm not sure anyone should constrict a genre to a small niche. Traditional definitions of the genre will mention the setting of the story needs to be west of the Mississippi river. I would posit that at times it's not so much the physical setting but the mood of the setting. Even though movies and books are different in many ways, when I saw the movie "Australia", I felt that it had a western flavor to it. This example would not meet the geographical or time constraints of a traditional western.

Puma, you had mentioned receiving crits. My biggest problem would be getting the facts and history right and transferring what I see in my head to paper. Many people tell me I have potential, which is nice, but with my glaring newness to writing, I need to know more of how I can apply said potential. If I have time while critting for others, I like to go all in.
 

Puma

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Hi bk - I think a lot of the old adages apply to your situation ""practice makes perfect" "experience is the best teacher". IMO, doing and learning by doing are going to stand you in better stead than any courses or books you can find. And that would be my advice to anyone with potential - write, crit, learn from both experiences, and do it again. Puma
 

wandering

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I'm curious to hear what others perceive as the necessary knowledge to write Westerns.

Research, research, and research. I find the research a lot of fun and very interesting. I don't know how a western can be written if the author doesn't know the detailed history, geography, living in the period, lifestyles, day to day life, etc. In addition to research books, maps, and diaries I find the newspapers a rich source for information.

Anyway, my thoughts;)
 

Puma

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bill - and welcome! I agree with you but I'd also add, experiencing the west - even if just traveling through it a couple times. I don't really see how someone who's never been west of the Mississippi can really understand what all's out there - the vastness, the adversity, the beauty and charm. Incomparable. Puma
 

wandering

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I agree with you but I'd also add, experiencing the west - even if just traveling through it a couple times. I don't really see how someone who's never been west of the Mississippi can really understand what all's out there - the vastness, the adversity, the beauty and charm. Incomparable. Puma
I totally agree and that is one reason I live here and travel about. Seems like I live in one place for about 5 years and then move on. Really love to visit the actual historical towns and visit the local libraries. So far I have lived in Texas, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Wyoming, N. Dakota, Alaska, Montana and spent a lot of time in the others. Nothing like actually doing the field research and I find it easy to transition back in time.

So, I am digressing :)

Thanks for the welcome !!
 

Elenitsa

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I don;t think it has to be west of the Mississippi river. It has to be in the Wild West, ie pioneers, cowboys, trappers, indians. In a certain time they were east of the Mississippi river too, when Illinois was just a wild territory. My western story happens East of Mississippi (ie around Mississippi river) around the Louisiana Purchase and little afterwards, when it was still Wild West there.

Research IS a must. Travelling there, isn't. Many German writers who wrote Westerns weren;t in the US. Other Europeans can't either.
 
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