PoC CAN'T be racist! (Right?)

nighttimer · Jan 7, 2012

One of the absolute worst cop-outs I've ever heard is this one:

"Black people can't be racist!"

This is usually followed by the caveat that Black people can be prejudiced (because we're all prejudiced, right?), but they can't be racist because racism is manifested through power and control and Blacks have never held that kind of authority over the lives of White people.

I think it's a crock.

I know Black people can be racist because they can be sexist, homophobic, ageist, xenophobic, religiously intolerant and every other thing the worst White bigot can be.

Plus, I've been Black all my life and I'm racist. Not a whole lot. Only a little bit. About this much...see?...barely a smidgen.

There are many communities where Blacks are racist as hell against Latinos, Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, and any and every other non-Black demographic. Yes, that definitely includes you honky Whitey cracker trailer trash blue-eyed devils too.

Blacks are frequently racist toward other Blacks. In my city there's no love lost between African-Americans and Africans living in America. The relationship between darker and lighter-skinned Blacks can really get contentious.

I don't recall my mother having a bad word to say about anyone, but my dad? Whew! He could out Archie Bunker, Archie Bunker himself. He wasn't a bad man, but he did not like gay men ("punks" and "queers") or my high school lesbian friend ("butch" "dyke") and went out of his way to make his dislike widely known.

The odd thing was once when he caught me doing that homophobic thing he put me in check. I was a teenager and watching something on TV where a gay man was speaking. I started going off about fags this and fags that and he just sat there quietly not saying anything. I probably thought I was relating to him.

Turns out I wasn't. He led me run my mouth and said, "You know it's the ones who talk about homosexuals the worse who are afraid they might be one."

That didn't slow my roll. It stopped it dead. Maybe he was trying to tell me something else? Naaaaaahhhh....

I just wanted to throw this out there since White people so often feel as if it's only their racism that comes up for discussion.

They shouldn't always have to be the only one whom are forced to pull out their "I Am Not A Racist" Card.

missesdash · Jan 7, 2012

I know Black people can be racist because they can be sexist, homophobic, ageist, xenophobic, religiously intolerant and every other thing the worst White bigot can be.

This doesn't make any sense. The definition of racism you're objecting to only applies to racism. People who prefer the "power + prejudice" definition have never argued that POC can't be any of those things. I don't see how knowing a POC can be sexist *proves* that this definition is incorrect or even unfair.

I see what you're saying, but the reasoning you've given, as long winded as it is, doesn't really debate the issue. Rather you set up strawmen and attack those instead.

It really comes down to two entirely different (but not exactly opposing) philosophies when it comes to racism. I've seen people on each side argue at length and nothing ever comes from it.

But I think in the end, both sides agree that any prejudicial or discriminatory behavior is disrespectful and hurtful.

Lhipenwhe · Jan 7, 2012

I believe the issue that nighttimer is referring to is the 'tolerance' of racism among some minorities that's excused away due to being PoC. I've seen examples of racism in academia - implied, subtle, and allegedly unintentional - yet the bigot is still respected in circles. As a PoC myself (who's had problems with being prejudiced), I find it irritatingly ironic that I can rail against certain ethnic groups because of my heritage, and barely raise an eyebrow from some quarters.

In a (slightly) related topic, I've gotten sick of people saying Arabs can't be antisemitic because Arabs are 'Semites'. This line is followed up from a range of idiocies from 'Jews stole our heritage' to 'Jews aren't really Semites'. My irritation at the defense is rivaled by the fact that 'Semite' isn't a race/ethnicity/heritage, whatever, and it was formulated by a Jew hater; it's a inaccurate and stupid word.

(I apologize if I misinterpreted your view/words, nighttimer)

Jcomp · Jan 7, 2012

nighttimer said:
There are many communities where Blacks are racist as hell against Latinos, Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, and any and every other non-Black demographic.

This is why I think it's bizarre when people argue that racism, by definition, only applies to people in a position of power. Supremacism, I could see, but not racism. Racism is simply about racial prejudice and discrimination, which isn't limited to white people any more than the entire planet is. In short, of course a person of color can be racist, often times against other persons of color.

kdesanges · Jan 7, 2012

This is a heavily debated topic and opnions have always varied, rightfully so. Though I suspect it will never happen in my lifetime, it is my sincere hope that there will come a time in human history where we have evolved enough as a society/people and this will be a mute topic; we will all be treated equally.

I know this is rose colored glasses talk, but a person can dream.....

Until such time, carry on. It may be open conversations such as these that eventually lead us to this path.

Snitchcat · Jan 7, 2012

kdesanges said:
It may be open conversations such as these that eventually lead us to this path.

Hoping for the same, too. (^_^)

Kitty27 · Jan 7, 2012

Very true. I have relatives who detest anyone non Black. My aunt is openly racist and gives less than a damn about who knows it. I have relatives who think gay people are going to hell and if they pray hard enough,the gay will go away.

I've had drama with folks from India and encountered racism from Asians that would make the KKK proud. Hell,I've experienced intra racism because Black people are STILL stuck on skin color in the 21st century. Black people can be extremely racist towards other folks. I've heard every racial epithet known to man.

Every race has a segment that is quite awful. POC aren't exempt from displaying such behavior even though we are often recipients of it.

CheG · Jan 8, 2012

Hate and intolerance is part of the human condition. If you're a human being being you will at some point feel hate for someone. It's part of what we are. But we do have the choice to try harder and learn more, and change our minds.

Rufus Coppertop · Jan 8, 2012

missesdash said:
I see what you're saying, but the reasoning you've given, as long winded as it is, doesn't really debate the issue. Rather you set up strawmen and attack those instead.

I thought it was a bloody good post.

missesdash · Jan 8, 2012

Rufus Coppertop said:
I thought it was a bloody good post.

I didn't say it was a bad post.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 8, 2012

Kitty27 said:
Every race has a segment that is quite awful. POC aren't exempt from displaying such behavior even though we are often recipients of it.

The human condition is such that we seem to be driven to create false hierarchies.

We truly are like chickens with opposable thumbs.

Snitchcat · Jan 8, 2012

In my own experience and from my own observation, it appears that the most racist of people are those who are racist or discriminatory against their own people within their/our own cultural segments. Perhaps it's that 'familiarity breeds contempt' concept. Sad, really.

Bartholomew · Jan 8, 2012

I appreciate this thread, Nighttimer.

Racism is... strange. I've been spending a lot of time with a handful of Chinese exchange students lately, and I had to check myself. They will, on occasion, make fun of Japanese culture and what they see an an American obsession with it. And by "make fun," I mean violently ridicule. I'd just been taking it in stride because, well, they're my friends and there aren't any Japanese people around to hear, so whatever, right?

And then I was with my non Chinese exchange student friends, and the topic of Pokemon came up, and something terrible that I didn't mean, and that I'm certainly not proud of came out of my mouth. I know where I got it, of course, but as a fully grown adult, I just assumed that I was better capable of filtering my influences.

Moral: if someone says something fuck-all stupid, don't let it slide. Peculating in bigotry is a fantastic way to become a bigot.

aruna · Jan 8, 2012

I remember when I was a little girl, one of my uncles -- the one who was actually quite famous in the country, an icon -- married a black woman. I mean really black, whereas WE (rest of the family, superior :sarcasm

) were coloured middle class; you were supposed to marry UP if you were CMC, not down! It was quite a big thing in the family. Especially because that uncle (the youngest of his eight brothers) was the best educated of them (he was an architect). Aunt Daphne was very black and very intelligent and a very nice woman; but they were always different and taught everyone a lesson.
My father (and mother) was most definitely not one of the ones who criticised his choice, however. I just remember that there was a scandal.

One of my light-coloured cousins (my own generation) married a very black man. Her mother didn't go to the wedding and wouldn't speak to her for many years. IN the meantime they are reconciled.

Iin Guyana, for many years, and even today, there was intense racism black vs Indian. Those two groups hated each other so much there was riot, arson and bloodshed. It was, however, all politically instigated (divide and rule: a colonial maxim).

A friend of mine who was a businessman in Hong Kong says that the Chinese were so despicably, openly racist towards blacks they could not employ any at all over there, to save them the humiliation.

So yes, PoC can be very racist.

Snitchcat · Jan 9, 2012

I have to say that I haven't noticed racism against Blacks in the workplace, but I haven't encountered any situation like that. However, I'm certain it exists: I see the racism on the streets towards Black residents and tourists.

To be fair, I do also see the reverse. And I can't blame either side for their reactions, but neither do I condone them. Unfortunately, the problem with speaking out here is the 'group bandwagon': 'how dare you betray your own nationality' and 'what the Hell do you know about our nationality, we don't need your support!'

A no-win situation with the majority of neither side willing to talk or push aside their preconceptions and try to further understand the other side.

Tourists... wow... I could go on about that all night! I'll spare you my rant, but suffice to say: What the devil! Yo! Hongkongers, don't even talk to me about 'equality' when you can't even be fair to tourists! Seriously: they're visiting and they're actually bringing income! Would it hurt you to be fair for a little while?! Grr.

Anyhow. Carry on.

backslashbaby · Jan 9, 2012

missesdash said:
This doesn't make any sense. The definition of racism you're objecting to only applies to racism. People who prefer the "power + prejudice" definition have never argued that POC can't be any of those things. I don't see how knowing a POC can be sexist *proves* that this definition is incorrect or even unfair.

...

I've been thinking about this, and I don't think I understand it. The biggie on the bigot scale that I've been exposed to is sexism, as you might imagine since I'm white. [I was marginalized to a certain extent because I hung with 'the gay crowd' and a lot of folks thought I was a lesbian, but those folks tended to be such idiots that I totally ignored them, and could do that in my main social group.]

Now, is sexism one where power+bigotry matters?

I could easily be missing something as I've never studied any of this stuff formally, but I think so. It matters that my employers being sexist is something I can't ignore -- that's my way of earning a living, you know? It matters when I'm choosing home protection for being a woman living alone. The fact that the 'other side' is so quick to physically kill me is not something that is just a difference of opinion or background.

It matters when folks who really do have power over you are the ones on the other side. How is that not pertinent in sexism and LBGT issues, at least?

If I'm misunderstanding what you meant, I totally apologize. I'm truly not sure that I understand what you mean; I'm not being snarky at all.

missesdash · Jan 9, 2012

backslashbaby said:
I've been thinking about this, and I don't think I understand it. The biggie on the bigot scale that I've been exposed to is sexism, as you might imagine since I'm white. [I was marginalized to a certain extent because I hung with 'the gay crowd' and a lot of folks thought I was a lesbian, but those folks tended to be such idiots that I totally ignored them, and could do that in my main social group.]

Now, is sexism one where power+bigotry matters?

I could easily be missing something as I've never studied any of this stuff formally, but I think so. It matters that my employers being sexist is something I can't ignore -- that's my way of earning a living, you know? It matters when I'm choosing home protection for being a woman living alone. The fact that the 'other side' is so quick to physically kill me is not something that is just a difference of opinion or background.

It matters when folks who really do have power over you are the ones on the other side. How is that not pertinent in sexism and LBGT issues, at least?

If I'm misunderstanding what you meant, I totally apologize. I'm truly not sure that I understand what you mean; I'm not being snarky at all.

I had to read this a few times. I was only talking about racism. Well, actually I'm still not sure what you mean as it pertains to my post, but I don't disagree with anything you stated.

I only meant it was silly that the OP seemed to be arguing that the "power+prejudice" definition of *racism* isn't correct because POC can be homophobic and sexist. It was a complete non sequitur. The post entire post is a strawman because people who say "POC can't be racist" don't say "POC can't practice prejudicial behavior."

Someone else said the OP means there is a higher tolerance when it comes to racism from POC, but that's clearly not what the post says at all.

backslashbaby · Jan 9, 2012

missesdash said:
...

I only meant it was silly that the OP seemed to be arguing that the "power+prejudice" definition of *racism* isn't correct because POC can be homophobic and sexist. It was a complete non sequitur. The post entire post is a strawman because people who say "POC can't be racist" don't say "POC can't practice prejudicial behavior."

Someone else said the OP means there is a higher tolerance when it comes to racism from POC, but that's clearly not what the post says at all.

Oh, OK! Good. I'd been thinking about that the whole time since those posts. But it's good to think about these things

nighttimer · Jan 9, 2012

missesdash said:
This doesn't make any sense. The definition of racism you're objecting to only applies to racism. People who prefer the "power + prejudice" definition have never argued that POC can't be any of those things. I don't see how knowing a POC can be sexist *proves* that this definition is incorrect or even unfair.

I see what you're saying, but the reasoning you've given, as long winded as it is, doesn't really debate the issue. Rather you set up strawmen and attack those instead.

It really comes down to two entirely different (but not exactly opposing) philosophies when it comes to racism. I've seen people on each side argue at length and nothing ever comes from it.

But I think in the end, both sides agree that any prejudicial or discriminatory behavior is disrespectful and hurtful.

Well, I thought I was establishing my premise, missesdash, and I wasn't going for being "long-winded." Actually, I thought it was a rather economical use of words.

I can't say what anyone else has experienced regarding people of color treading in racism, but my experience is the "we can't be racist because we don't have power" line is used as an excuse and it is invalid.

missesdash said:
I had to read this a few times. I was only talking about racism. Well, actually I'm still not sure what you mean as it pertains to my post, but I don't disagree with anything you stated.

I only meant it was silly that the OP seemed to be arguing that the "power+prejudice" definition of *racism* isn't correct because POC can be homophobic and sexist. It was a complete non sequitur. The post entire post is a strawman because people who say "POC can't be racist" don't say "POC can't practice prejudicial behavior."

Someone else said the OP means there is a higher tolerance when it comes to racism from POC, but that's clearly not what the post says at all.

There is no "strawman" in the OP and I could not disagree more with your suggestion there is.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 9, 2012

nighttimer said:
One of the absolute worst cop-outs I've ever heard is this one:

"Black people can't be racist!"

This is usually followed by the caveat that Black people can be prejudiced (because we're all prejudiced, right?), but they can't be racist because racism is manifested through power and control and Blacks have never held that kind of authority over the lives of White people.

I think it's a crock.

I've heard the same argument regarding women; women can't be sexist because we aren't empowered.

That's nonsense. All humans have an incredible ability to irrationally attempt to force stupid and inappropriate and bullshit hierarchies at the drop of a hat in terms of entire groups of people, based on appearance, language, ethnicity, religion or class.

If there is intelligent life in the universe, I fear we will be found somewhat lacking.

Rufus Coppertop · Jan 10, 2012

If there's intelligent life in the universe, I'll bet it's just as fucked up as we are.

missesdash · Jan 10, 2012

nighttimer said:
Well, I thought I was establishing my premise, missesdash, and I wasn't going for being "long-winded." Actually, I thought it was a rather economical use of words.

I can't say what anyone else has experienced regarding people of color treading in racism, but my experience is the "we can't be racist because we don't have power" line is used as an excuse and it is invalid.
There is no "strawman" in the OP and I could not disagree more with your suggestion there is.

Anyone who says "but I've seen racism from POC" is making an illogical argument because they haven't addressed the real issue: Both parties have observed the same behavior in POC but some call it racism, others don't. This disagreement is one of semantics. Entirely semantics.

Just to make it easier to understand: let's say there are 12 apples in front of me. You say "a dozen is 12, so that's a dozen" someone else says "a dozen is 14, so that's not a dozen." You can't counter their position by repeatedly counting and saying "but it's 12!" because they arent arguing whether or not it's 12, they're only arguing whether or not it's considered "a dozen."

So I think you misunderstand the argument you're trying to counter. Your definition of racism is prejudicial behavior based on race. Your post is showing that POC are capable of this. The side you disagree with also agrees that POC are capable of this. The only thing they disagree about is whether or not it should be *called* racism. Not whether it's worse or somehow more acceptable. Only what it should be called.

That is why your entire OP is a strawman. No one is arguing that PoC don't do any of the things you brought up. It's hard for most people to view this from an unbiased point of view because "racist" is a loaded word. That's why I gave the apple example.

ETA: a logical argument for or against the "power +prejudice" stance should seek to explain why one definition is superior or less effective than the other.

Jcomp · Jan 10, 2012

I'm going to disagree that the argument is entirely semantics. There are certainly people out there who do think that it's "somehow more acceptable" for a person of color to be racist. We've seen some people suggest that on this very board, still in its infancy, in fact. That certain people should just deal with it when a PoC is racist. The implication being that it's not so bad when a PoC exhibits racially based prejudice. And that's not an attempt to call anyone out, I'm just trying to make a point.

As for an accurate definition, I don't see how "power + prejudice" can be a better suited definition since it completely discounts racism between other PoC's, at least in America and other predominantly white countries, and would lead to racism being re-categorized depending on what country you're in. If a black person says something racist to an Asian person, or a Hispanic person says something racist to a black person... that's gotdamn racist. What else would it be? The "power" element really has no bearing. I've never understood the argument to re-define the word. Sometimes a more "simplistic" and direct definition of a word is the best.

missesdash · Jan 10, 2012

You're right. I discuss it as two seperate issues but there is certainly a lot of overlap. And there are people who wave around the academic definition and use it to excuse the behavior of PoC. That's never acceptable.

If anyone is interested: There are two separate lines of thinking when it comes to PoC practicing prejudicial behavior towards each other. One states that in a system where the PoC does exhibit significant "power" (an all black neighborhood or historically black college, for example) that it is racism, regardless of the other individuals ethnicity.

Another argues that PoC who practice prejudicial behavior against each other are, essentially, pawns of the white supremacy if that they are all basically competing for the "second seat" in the racial hierarchy. That each time one PoC knocks another down, they're acting as a mechanism of the current system and the "racism" is still that of the majority.

The second requires a lot of dismissal as far as individual autonomy is concerned, and puts most of the blame on the system. The first is obviously more moderate.

backslashbaby · Jan 10, 2012

Looking at it in sexism, I think the pawn definition certainly makes a lot of sense, at least in many situations. I don't believe that other women were born thinking I need to have a tiny waist to be a worthwhile woman, for example. That's coming from an outside source. It may play on natural competitiveness, but the specific details chosen come from greater society, which means men in that case.

I think groups of people take what's considered 'good' and run with it in a competitive way, and that's natural. I think in racism, etc, somebody else too often chooses what's considered good, even if it's really detrimental to the group.

In the end, people just try to gain more power, no? So it does go back to who chooses what makes someone powerful, imho.

PoC CAN'T be racist! (Right?)

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