The Zharmae Publishing Press

Round Two · Jul 15, 2018

traveo2343 said:
They would offer their normal wholesale services. Sales support services require a fairly large sales track history which I would not be able to offer. Again, the focus is not on wide distribution, but deep distribution. Distribution simply means a method of ordering, and frighting goods, not necessarily a sales team which is something I am not seeking.

Does that mean that you or somebody with your company would handle the sales aspect? Or would you forego them all together?

Helix · Jul 15, 2018

traveo2343 said:
[snip]

What I have been saying is actually this: John comes to Whorde and pays Whorde to produce a story for him, John is then responsible for publishing his own work. DB will develop and write story concept, and hire Paul to ghostwrite that story concept, and then DB will publish that work which it owns under the DB name. DB would not offer services to John in any manner.

Does that make sense? There is no transference of clients or work product between Whorde and DB. Which is what I think you are misunderstanding, and if I was unclear about that I apologize. The purpose of DB is to develop franchised content that is owned outright by DB. Beyond hiring writers to ghostwrite content for DB, I am not planning on contracting authors to DB.

I have a question about payment to authors working for DB: do you pay them upfront or is it some sort of profit-sharing agreement?

traveo2343 · Jul 15, 2018

Round Two said:
Does that mean that you or somebody with your company would handle the sales aspect? Or would you forego them all together?

As I mentioned, I'd be focused on 5 cities, so yes, I would engage a publicist for each city, coupled with targeted digital marketing spend for each city. Further, since we are talking about 30 bookshops in the areas I'll be reaching out to them directly. So not foregoing sales, but focusing on building community around the books, and encouraging adoption of the series.

traveo2343 · Jul 15, 2018

Helix said:
I have a question about payment to authors working for DB: do you pay them upfront or is it some sort of profit-sharing agreement?

I am planning to buy their time, I'd like to work on a flat fee contract, which is what I do with the ghostwriters I work with now. So would likely pay $1,500 to $3,000 for finished content from 37,500-62,500 words. Since these are supposed to be longer series, I am targeting the lower word-count range, and would probably contract for 5-7 books at a time. Right now, I have ongoing agreements to pay $1,500/standard project to my writers, and I pay $18.75/hr if we have to do work outside of the normal project scope.

The purpose for me is to have DB own all of the content, in order to own the copyright, DB needs to pay for the writer's time. Profit-sharing is always cheaper but gets so messy. I am trying to avoid that aspect if I go forward with this venture.

eqb · Jul 15, 2018

Those are some lowball fees you have there. Especially since it's a flat fee.

Old Hack · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
Does that make sense? There is no transference of clients or work product between Whorde and DB. Which is what I think you are misunderstanding, and if I was unclear about that I apologize. The purpose of DB is to develop franchised content that is owned outright by DB. Beyond hiring writers to ghostwrite content for DB, I am not planning on contracting authors to DB.

That's much clearer--thank you. If there were any crossover between Whorde and DB you would be in murky waters, but so long as you keep the two endeavours separate it's a lot better.

traveo2343 said:
They would offer their normal wholesale services. Sales support services require a fairly large sales track history which I would not be able to offer. Again, the focus is not on wide distribution, but deep distribution. Distribution simply means a method of ordering, and frighting goods, not necessarily a sales team which is something I am not seeking.

Sorry, Travis, you're wrong. "Distribution" in trade publishing terms doesn't just mean a method of ordering: it's a fully-serviced sales effort.

Ingram will be wholesaling your books, which means they'll provide order fulfilment and that's about it: people will only buy your books if they already know about them, and want them badly enough to go and order them. This does not lead to many sales. Distribution, however, can make a book. If Ingram were distributing your book they'd hold stock, fill sales and handle returns--but also that they'd put their sales teams onto selling your books into bookshops. And it's those sales teams that allow a book to reach a huge audience.

Round Two said:
Does that mean that you or somebody with your company would handle the sales aspect? Or would you forego them all together?

traveo2343 said:
As I mentioned, I'd be focused on 5 cities, so yes, I would engage a publicist for each city, coupled with targeted digital marketing spend for each city. Further, since we are talking about 30 bookshops in the areas I'll be reaching out to them directly. So not foregoing sales, but focusing on building community around the books, and encouraging adoption of the series.

Engaging a publicist is all well and good: but it's been shown, over and over, that if the books being publicised aren't readily available in physical shops at the time of the publicity burst, you'll not achieve much from those publicity efforts. Focus on establishing good relationships with those bookshops as a priority. Also, consider other retail outlets where books might be sold. Be creative. It's going to take a lot of effort, and a lot of time--you'll have to start work a good few months before publication for these titles--but you might be able to sell a reasonable number of copies.

traveo2343 said:
I am planning to buy their time, I'd like to work on a flat fee contract, which is what I do with the ghostwriters I work with now. So would likely pay $1,500 to $3,000 for finished content from 37,500-62,500 words. Since these are supposed to be longer series, I am targeting the lower word-count range, and would probably contract for 5-7 books at a time. Right now, I have ongoing agreements to pay $1,500/standard project to my writers, and I pay $18.75/hr if we have to do work outside of the normal project scope.

The purpose for me is to have DB own all of the content, in order to own the copyright, DB needs to pay for the writer's time. Profit-sharing is always cheaper but gets so messy. I am trying to avoid that aspect if I go forward with this venture.

I've ghostwritten a good few books and can tell you now that those are really low fees, Travis.

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Old Hack said:
That's much clearer--thank you. If there were any crossover between Whorde and DB you would be in murky waters, but so long as you keep the two endeavours separate it's a lot better.

Sorry, Travis, you're wrong. "Distribution" in trade publishing terms doesn't just mean a method of ordering: it's a fully-serviced sales effort.

Ingram will be wholesaling your books, which means they'll provide order fulfilment and that's about it: people will only buy your books if they already know about them, and want them badly enough to go and order them. This does not lead to many sales. Distribution, however, can make a book. If Ingram were distributing your book they'd hold stock, fill sales and handle returns--but also that they'd put their sales teams onto selling your books into bookshops. And it's those sales teams that allow a book to reach a huge audience.

Engaging a publicist is all well and good: but it's been shown, over and over, that if the books being publicised aren't readily available in physical shops at the time of the publicity burst, you'll not achieve much from those publicity efforts. Focus on establishing good relationships with those bookshops as a priority. Also, consider other retail outlets where books might be sold. Be creative. It's going to take a lot of effort, and a lot of time--you'll have to start work a good few months before publication for these titles--but you might be able to sell a reasonable number of copies.

I've ghostwritten a good few books and can tell you now that those are really low fees, Travis.

Thank you for the feedback.

I may have missed this in my own research, but SFWA rates is $3,000/book or $0.06/word, if I am paying that rate how is that low? Further, if I am paying by the hour, I would argue that low or high is relative to the person who agrees to work by the hour. Or are you referring to potentially lost royalties?

eqb · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
Thank you for the feedback.

I may have missed this in my own research, but SFWA rates is $3,000/book or $0.06/word, if I am paying that rate how is that low? Further, if I am paying by the hour, I would argue that low or high is relative to the person who agrees to work by the hour. Or are you referring to potentially lost royalties?

You're comparing apples and frogs. The SFWA rates are minimum advances (or income from self publication). They are not for ghost writing fees where the author 1) gets no more money, and 2) hands over the copyright. And you also said "Right now, I have ongoing agreements to pay $1,500/standard project to my writers, and I pay $18.75/hr if we have to do work outside of the normal project scope."

So not even $3K.

Here's one page talking about ghostwriting fees:

https://writingcooperative.com/how-much-to-charge-as-a-ghostwriter-842929713d28

Thedrellum · Jul 16, 2018

Travis, that is absurdly low in terms of what you are paying your ghostwriters. Also, you are not likely to get quality content at that price, which means it will be hard to sell a series because, eventually, people will be turned off by the writing. Are you paying for editors and copy editors, too? And if so, how much?

Old Hack · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
Thank you for the feedback.

I may have missed this in my own research, but SFWA rates is $3,000/book or $0.06/word, if I am paying that rate how is that low? Further, if I am paying by the hour, I would argue that low or high is relative to the person who agrees to work by the hour. Or are you referring to potentially lost royalties?

I see that eqb has suggested you're confusing advances with flat fees but it would be useful to know exactly where you got the numbers from, Travis--it would help me understand where you're coming from, for a start.

To give you an idea of what's usual, in 1994 I was paying flat fees of a minimum of £6,000 for relatively short books--no more than 40,000 words, non-fiction, where the authors were specialists in their fields and so would not have to do much in the way of original research. This was for work-for-hire contracts where the authors would get no further royalties, but they would get their names on the books.

You might well find writers desperate enough to accept the very low fees you're suggesting, but you'll get what you pay for, as Thedrellum has already pointed out:

Thedrellum said:
Travis, that is absurdly low in terms of what you are paying your ghostwriters. Also, you are not likely to get quality content at that price, which means it will be hard to sell a series because, eventually, people will be turned off by the writing. Are you paying for editors and copy editors, too? And if so, how much?

You might find good writers willing to start talking to you if you offer £10,000, but if a book is complex, or long, or needs to be written in a hurry, expect to pay a lot more.

(I have twice now written books which ran to 60,000 words in a week, which was no fun at all, and left me with RSI, but the cheques were extremely nice.)

eqb · Jul 16, 2018

Old Hack said:
I see that eqb has suggested you're confusing advances with flat fees but it would be useful to know exactly where you got the numbers from, Travis--it would help me understand where you're coming from, for a start.

I know exactly where he got those numbers from. This page, which lists the criteria for sales to qualify for SFWA membership. Among other things, the page says for novels:

One Paid Sale of a work of fiction (such as a novel) of a minimum of 40,000 words to a qualifying professional market, for which the candidate has been paid at least $3,000 as a non-returnable advance before or at the time of publication ($2000.00 if sale made on or before 12/31/2014);

And for short stories:

Three or more paid sales of different works of fiction (such as three separate short stories or half-hour scripts) totaling a minimum of 10,000 words to SFWA qualifying markets.We accept the following payment per word rates for these sales: 6c/word from 7/1/2014 – current, 5c/word from 1/1/2004 to 6/30/2014 and 3c/word before 1/1/2004;

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

eqb said:
I know exactly where he got those numbers from. This page, which lists the criteria for sales to qualify for SFWA membership. Among other things, the page says for novels:

And for short stories:

You are correct, that is where I located that information.

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Thedrellum said:
Travis, that is absurdly low in terms of what you are paying your ghostwriters. Also, you are not likely to get quality content at that price, which means it will be hard to sell a series because, eventually, people will be turned off by the writing. Are you paying for editors and copy editors, too? And if so, how much?

I negotiate a set price per project or by the hour with all of my contractors.

Writers typically payout $1,500 to $3,500 per project or $18.75-$35/hour.
Editors/copyeditors, have typically been paid $250-$750 per project or $25/hour
Artists & Designers are highly dependent on the type of work, and have typically negotiated from $15 to $95 per spot art, and from $150-$1,750 for full page and full illustrations.

In all of these there are variations below and above these figures, as an example some of the contractors will ask for less if the project is particularly large, or more if it is small or for any series of factors. If my clients insist on choosing from a variety of writers, I will typically pay a flat $35 review fee for the client to look at a one-page sample or sample of previously written work. Much of the rates that have been paid out have been a factor of the projects that we have received.

On a final project, payment writers are seeing between $0.03 to as high as $2.15 per word. We only work with writers who can produce at least 2,500 words per day of usable content, of the writers that I work with regularly, all but 3 typically produce 8,000 to 15,000 words per day. No one produces that type of content that fast without some mistakes, which is why I have to use editors to go over the work. But so far revisions have typically been minor.

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Old Hack said:
I see that eqb has suggested you're confusing advances with flat fees but it would be useful to know exactly where you got the numbers from, Travis--it would help me understand where you're coming from, for a start.

To give you an idea of what's usual, in 1994 I was paying flat fees of a minimum of £6,000 for relatively short books--no more than 40,000 words, non-fiction, where the authors were specialists in their fields and so would not have to do much in the way of original research. This was for work-for-hire contracts where the authors would get no further royalties, but they would get their names on the books.

You might well find writers desperate enough to accept the very low fees you're suggesting, but you'll get what you pay for, as Thedrellum has already pointed out:

You might find good writers willing to start talking to you if you offer £10,000, but if a book is complex, or long, or needs to be written in a hurry, expect to pay a lot more.

(I have twice now written books which ran to 60,000 words in a week, which was no fun at all, and left me with RSI, but the cheques were extremely nice.)

I would like to point out that I only pay in USD, so there will be some exchange differences. But even considering that, for a single project, the highest that I have paid out was $4,750 negotiated flat fee for a 130,000 word project, the writer was paid for a few other service fees, but the base pricing was negotiated and offered by the writer based on the scope of the project. For this particular project, because of the circumstances, I added some additional fees which increased what the writer received in total.

If I paid out by the hour at $18.75/hr, with an expectation of a cost per word at $0.06/word, that would be 312.5 words per day or 2,500 words per 8 hour period. If I maintained that production expectation, the writer would be hired for 120 hours, and would receive $2,250 as a flat fee for a 37,500 word project. I don't consider that unfair.

Since DB would be producing the treatment and the story concept, there is no question about buying copyright from the writer, copyright is owned by DB from the get-go, so there is no need to factor that into a fee schedule. In this process I would literally be using the writer to flesh expand the content, they won't need to think about how the story will develop or any other factors. So, I would offer that much of the higher level skills surrounding creativity that an author would add to a book, are non-existant. Perhaps, there are alternative views here?

Round Two · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
I negotiate a set price per project or by the hour with all of my contractors.

Writers typically payout $1,500 to $3,500 per project or $18.75-$35/hour.
Editors/copyeditors, have typically been paid $250-$750 per project or $25/hour
Artists & Designers are highly dependent on the type of work, and have typically negotiated from $15 to $95 per spot art, and from $150-$1,750 for full page and full illustrations.

In all of these there are variations below and above these figures, as an example some of the contractors will ask for less if the project is particularly large, or more if it is small or for any series of factors. If my clients insist on choosing from a variety of writers, I will typically pay a flat $35 review fee for the client to look at a one-page sample or sample of previously written work. Much of the rates that have been paid out have been a factor of the projects that we have received.

On a final project, payment writers are seeing between $0.03 to as high as $2.15 per word. We only work with writers who can produce at least 2,500 words per day of usable content, of the writers that I work with regularly, all but 3 typically produce 8,000 to 15,000 words per day. No one produces that type of content that fast without some mistakes, which is why I have to use editors to go over the work. But so far revisions have typically been minor.

From the Editorial Freelancers Association, here are their suggested rates. Notice how far away they are from what you're paying and who is accepting the rates you're offering.

Fiction Writing - $40-50/hr OR $.20-.25/word.
Ghost Writing - $50-60/hr OR $.26-50/word.
Based on an average of 1-3 pages/hr.

Developmental Editing - $45-55/hr (Based on 1-5 pages per hour)
Line Editing - $40-60/hr (Based on 1-6 pages per hour)

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Round Two said:
From the Editorial Freelancers Association, here are their suggested rates. Notice how far away they are from what you're paying and who is accepting the rates you're offering.

Fiction Writing - $40-50/hr OR $.20-.25/word.
Ghost Writing - $50-60/hr OR $.26-50/word.
Based on an average of 1-3 pages/hr.

Developmental Editing - $45-55/hr (Based on 1-5 pages per hour)
Line Editing - $40-60/hr (Based on 1-6 pages per hour)

Again, much of the rates are offered by the contractors, and those rates are for freelancers who need to charge for downtime when they are without work. Is it possible that some of the price difference is accounted for in the fact that the work I contract for is fairly regular?

I contract the rates in order to guarantee costs for clients.

Add-in how i pricep projects, we price a page as equaling 250 words. This would make the hourly rate on a per word basis range from $0.08 to $0.16 per word.

Round Two · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
I would like to point out that I only pay in USD, so there will be some exchange differences. But even considering that, for a single project, the highest that I have paid out was $4,750 negotiated flat fee for a 130,000 word project, the writer was paid for a few other service fees, but the base pricing was negotiated and offered by the writer based on the scope of the project. For this particular project, because of the circumstances, I added some additional fees which increased what the writer received in total.

If I paid out by the hour at $18.75/hr, with an expectation of a cost per word at $0.06/word, that would be 312.5 words per day or 2,500 words per 8 hour period. If I maintained that production expectation, the writer would be hired for 120 hours, and would receive $2,250 as a flat fee for a 37,500 word project. I don't consider that unfair.

Since DB would be producing the treatment and the story concept, there is no question about buying copyright from the writer, copyright is owned by DB from the get-go, so there is no need to factor that into a fee schedule. In this process I would literally be using the writer to flesh expand the content, they won't need to think about how the story will develop or any other factors. So, I would offer that much of the higher level skills surrounding creativity that an author would add to a book, are non-existant. Perhaps, there are alternative views here?

Conversion of £10,000 would be $13,234.

I'm not doubting you were able to get somebody to work at the rate you're saying. But I'm willing to bet that either (A) the material is inferior relative to the market, or (B) that person has no idea of their worth.

It's understood that DB would own the copyright. The issue is that a writer gets more upfront for a project they don't own and won't receive royalties for. It's compensation for a lack of future earnings.

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Round Two said:
Conversion of £10,000 would be $13,234.

I'm not doubting you were able to get somebody to work at the rate you're saying. But I'm willing to bet that either (A) the material is inferior relative to the market, or (B) that person has no idea of their worth.

It's understood that DB would own the copyright. The issue is that a writer gets more upfront for a project they don't own and won't receive royalties for. It's compensation for a lack of future earnings.

If the work is consistent, I am not likely to pay freelance rates, according to the BLS the average hourly rate is $29.75 for a writer, I'm certainly not going to pay more than that. $18.75 is in my view the rate I would start any college graduate off at, and I don't think that I would pay more than $35 or so per hour.

The reference link: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/media-and-communication/writers-and-authors.htm

From the view of a writer, would you rather be paid by the hour or by the project or by the word? Because any of those three perspectives can make any activity look poorly or fabulously paid.

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Round Two said:
I'm not doubting you were able to get somebody to work at the rate you're saying. But I'm willing to bet that either (A) the material is inferior relative to the market, or (B) that person has no idea of their worth.

From a business perspective, we have a lot of repeat professional media clients, I would say that A is unlikely. With regard to B, if the contractor offers a price that is below market, I don't know that I have any obligation counter with a higher market price.

eqb · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
You are correct, that is where I located that information.

And those numbers are for novels with advances and royalties, with the author retaining copyright. Your fees are not in line with industry standards.

Old Hack · Jul 16, 2018

traveo2343 said:
You are correct, that is where I located that information.

Then you've completely misunderstood what those amounts represent.

traveo2343 said:
We only work with writers who can produce at least 2,500 words per day of usable content, of the writers that I work with regularly, all but 3 typically produce 8,000 to 15,000 words per day. No one produces that type of content that fast without some mistakes, which is why I have to use editors to go over the work. But so far revisions have typically been minor.

You're suggesting here that editors are required to fix mistakes. They do so much more than that, and frankly, if that's all you're using them for the works you put out are not going to be very high quality.

traveo2343 said:
Since DB would be producing the treatment and the story concept, there is no question about buying copyright from the writer, copyright is owned by DB from the get-go, so there is no need to factor that into a fee schedule. In this process I would literally be using the writer to flesh expand the content, they won't need to think about how the story will develop or any other factors. So, I would offer that much of the higher level skills surrounding creativity that an author would add to a book, are non-existant. Perhaps, there are alternative views here?

Authors own the copyrights to the works they produce, even when they produce that work to someone else's outlines.

This does not excuse you from paying a reasonable rate of pay.

traveo2343 said:
Again, much of the rates are offered by the contractors, and those rates are for freelancers who need to charge for downtime when they are without work. Is it possible that some of the price difference is accounted for in the fact that the work I contract for is fairly regular?

No, Travis, that's not how it works.

You're still paying way below market rates.

Old Hack · Jul 16, 2018

eqb said:
And those numbers are for novels with advances and royalties, with the author retaining copyright. Your fees are not in line with industry standards.

Not only that--the authors would still have foreign, translation and subsidiary rights to exploit, which are often more lucrative than the original deal in their home territory.

An agent friend of mine aims to get each of her author-clients a new advance or royalty cheque every week, from all of those subsidiary deals. It's how authors build their incomes, and their pensions. Selling flat-fee work is only worth it if each deal is very lucrative. The only way you can make it work otherwise is by writing like the clappers, and turning in substandard work. And that's never a good option.

Calla Lily · Jul 16, 2018

I am a copyeditor with more than 30 years' experience. If you're hiring inexperienced new grads, you must adjust for that. Do you have experienced editors on staff to oversee them? Is their pay commensurate with their experience?

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Thank you all for the feedback. I will check back and make one final reply to this thread tonight by 8pm (Chicago Local time - about 3.5 hours from now). If there are any final comments, questions, concerns I will take them into consideration. If I do move forward on this project I will check in with AW a year into the project to let you know how it has progressed. At the present time, I still need to evaluate this venture along with a few other opportunities that I am considering. Of the feedback that has been highlighted payment to authors, distribution vs sales support, and my personal experience with books are the main focus. I will include those in my final due diligence analysis.

traveo2343 · Jul 16, 2018

Calla Lily said:
I am a copyeditor with more than 30 years' experience. If you're hiring inexperienced new grads, you must adjust for that. Do you have experienced editors on staff to oversee them? Is their pay commensurate with their experience?

Generally, the average experience is 3-7 years, with some having as much as 20+ years. Again, while I have a range that I target, I allow contractors to offer a price they are comfortable with based on the project scope, and I contract them in order to lock in that price point for a given project or series of projects, or time period.

The Zharmae Publishing Press

Behind the door of a small house.

socially distancing

Publisher at TZPP

Publisher at TZPP

I write novels

Such a nasty woman

Publisher at TZPP

I write novels

Grr. Argh.

Such a nasty woman

I write novels

Publisher at TZPP

Publisher at TZPP

Publisher at TZPP

Behind the door of a small house.

Publisher at TZPP

Behind the door of a small house.

Publisher at TZPP

Publisher at TZPP

I write novels

Such a nasty woman

Such a nasty woman

On hiatus

Publisher at TZPP

Publisher at TZPP