Handling Harsh/Mean-Spirited Critiques

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Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
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Not to sound sappy, but thank goodness for Absolute Write, QLH, Jim, Quick, Impress me, Katiemac and all the critters. I honestly don’t know how I could have possibly learned the things I’ve learned here anywhere else.


Exactly the same for me, and for many others I expect. Quick and JCD got a PM from me not too long ago. I owe JCD in particular a lot - for forcing me to make my queries better.

I haven't abandoned SYW because of crit styles or speshul snowflakes though. It's time - I've got a queue of stuff to beta, and my own stuff to write. I try to swing by, but nine times out of ten, someone else has already said what I would have done, so there doesn't seem much point.

If I had the time, I'd be back in there, snowflakes or not.
 

Bartholomew

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I haven't abandoned SYW because of the meanies. I've abandoned it because of the speshul snowflakes. Maybe we could have a separate, "I-just-want-to-be-wanked-off" forum?

Not sure I've seen a whole lot of that, at least not in Sci-Fi/Fantasy. But then, I tend to only read entire threads when it's my own work in front of the tribunal.

I really don't want a YADS forum. :p
 

shakeysix

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getting wanked off is pleasant and easy but the pleasure is short lived. and counterproductive. it's the difference between satisfying yourself and the painful give and take of a real relationship. hang your work out and take the slings and arrows that come your way. yes, it hurts but when you get it right it is much better than reading your words to yourself, alone in the desert, and letting your wit and wisdom evaporate in the desert air--s6
 
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jclarkdawe

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Originally Posted by jclarkdawe
I searched for the punctuation truck because I vaguely remember it. I wonder if it went during that brief meltdown.
The problem with that particular example as part of a crit maybe because it's out of context; if, for instance, the critter pointed out examples of necessary punctuation, and examples of the extraneous punctuation, that's useful.

I think one aspect of a helpful crit is in the specificity of the data; you don't have to list every single problem passage, but give an example.

It's also very helpful to point out the things that are done well, too.

It is hard to judge something out of context. And the punctuation truck line would be better if the next line then says something like, "All the commas and semi-colons you have scattered through this piece interfere with the reader's flow." But I've got to admit, I don't always add the second sentence.

Definitely if asked, I'd explain it. And a person needs to understand that all of our backgrounds are different. As an attorney, I'm used to constructing a sentence with more than a hundred words, more commas than you can shake a stick at, and only marginally understandable to any normal human. So to me, this sort of comment makes a lot of sense. To other people, it may not. And I don't always remember this.

So shot me. I'm not perfect.

But I also laugh at myself just as much. When someone catches me using a word too much, I'm likely to say something like I got them on sale and how else am I going to get rid of them?

Reality is a lot of the reaction to a critique is frustration. The writer is frustrated because what they wrote is not as good as they want it to be. If you're a grownup, you should have learned to deal with frustration quietly, but some people haven't. If you're a kid, well, that's part of growing up. And I'll admit that if I know someone is young, I'll cut them a bit of slack. (Not a whole lot, because the world won't.)

To people like J.W. and Idiot who believe I actually do crits to be nice, you're sweet. I mean I'm glad I helped you and all that, but I really do it mainly to help my writing and amuse me. I'm a very selfish person.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Mr Flibble

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To people like J.W. and Idiot who believe I actually do crits to be nice, you're sweet. I
I think you do crits to vent your spleen - but it's spleen venting that gets the job done, so I'm happy to take the bile :D you refuse to let me get away with a sub par query - that's worth fucking gold.

Plus you and me - sarcasm buddies. I take your comments for what they are, the way I would make them - snarly with a very sharp point. If I got my knickers in a twist about how you said it, I might miss why you said it. As it is, you say the shit I rein back on, but think.

you have taught me more with sarcasm and snark than anyone else might have with a hundred years of 'nice'

But hey, if the shit fits, wear it.
 

quicklime

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you have taught me more with sarcasm and snark than anyone else might have with a hundred years of 'nice'

.


this pretty much sums up my world too. I learned most of what i've learned from folks like jim, and their big meaniness.

I can say I learned more here in the first six months than from years of reading blogs, books, etc....and I'd say a good 90% of what I learned came from "snark" or jabs. I owe many people here thanks, none of them for "I'd totally read that story".
 
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J.W.

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To people like J.W. and Idiot who believe I actually do crits to be nice,

Jim Clark-Dawe
I'm here for what I want; to be published. I like what you say not because of how clever, nice and quick you are, but because I'm learning.

Cheers and good luck.
 
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DancingMaenid

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Some people do learn well from snark and jabs. I don't, necessarily, which I think is also okay. I learn from honesty, and I like that honesty to be given respectfully. Snark can be respectful, but sometimes it's hard to tell unless it's coming from someone you know (or have at least observed a bit).

The first time I tried to write an erotic sex scene, I asked a friend of mine who wrote erotica if she'd be willing to take a peek at it and give me her thoughts. I don't remember exactly what she said in her emailed response, but I know it was something like, "Sorry, but this is bad" followed by a mention of it being like something you'd expect from a stereotypically bad romance novel.

She was right, and I knew that. But just as importantly, I knew her and her style of communication, and knew how to read her words and see the humor in them. With a stranger, I don't know if I would have known exactly how to react, and I might have seen their critiquing style as presumptuous.
 

wheelwriter

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To people like J.W. and Idiot who believe I actually do crits to be nice, you're sweet. I mean I'm glad I helped you and all that, but I really do it mainly to help my writing and amuse me. I'm a very selfish person.

I do it because I plan to redeem my rep points for a toaster. Who doesn't like toast?

Critiquing is one of those beautiful things where both the critter and crittee learn. QLH has helped me plot better, write more active sentences, and look at my work more critically. And unlike Jim and all his meanness (which is clearly exemplified by how happy he gets when someone succeeds), I enjoy watching a query letter evolve.
 

MacAllister

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Some people do learn well from snark and jabs. I don't, necessarily, which I think is also okay. I learn from honesty, and I like that honesty to be given respectfully. Snark can be respectful, but sometimes it's hard to tell unless it's coming from someone you know (or have at least observed a bit).

The first time I tried to write an erotic sex scene, I asked a friend of mine who wrote erotica if she'd be willing to take a peek at it and give me her thoughts. I don't remember exactly what she said in her emailed response, but I know it was something like, "Sorry, but this is bad" followed by a mention of it being like something you'd expect from a stereotypically bad romance novel.

She was right, and I knew that. But just as importantly, I knew her and her style of communication, and knew how to read her words and see the humor in them. With a stranger, I don't know if I would have known exactly how to react, and I might have seen their critiquing style as presumptuous.
People learn lots of different ways - none of them wrong. What matters is that we're learning.

But yeah - critting and being critted takes a measure of trust and goodwill from both parties.
 

quicklime

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I do it because I plan to redeem my rep points for a toaster. Who doesn't like toast?

.



toastophobes, mostly.....and Scientologists, I believe.

But really, a toaster? Wish I knew before I sent in for fucking plastic cufflinks...

Now I will have to be extra mean.
 

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A bit like pouring cola on it? How does that tell you what to revise?

Actually they are specific in that they suggest you to go away and learn how to use punctuation and grammar, which seems a lot more constructive than tearing up your copy and proclaiming it shit.

The difference is that it was Alan Rich pouring coke on my copy, a noted music critic, national columnist, and fine writer and editor.

Alan pronounced my copy "treacle" (hence the pop) but then spent most of that summer working with me, showing me how to sharpen my prose, how to write honest and interesting ad copy, how to structure a detailed music review of a CD, how to make copy fit in the small spaces allotted in catalogs and packaging.

And when I got it right, he told me, and everyone else in earshot and took me out for a champagne lunch.
 
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flyingtart

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The difference is that it was Alan Rich pouring coke on my copy, a noted music critic, national columnist, and fine writer and editor.

Alan pronounced my copy "treacle" (hence the pop) but then spent most of that summer working with me, showing me how to sharpen my prose, how to write honest and interesting ad copy, how to structure a detailed music review of a CD, how to copy fit in the small spaces allotted in catalogs and packaging.

And when I got it right, he told me, and everyone else in earshot and took me out for a champagne lunch.

Never heard of him. But I'm glad he taught you something.
 

quicklime

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How do plastic cufflinks...

No, forget I asked. I don't need that kind of picture in my head.


allow me to elaborate, using these carefully drawn stick-figure diagrams and a pair of sock-puppets to better illustrate the nuances of cufflink intercourse.....
 

Blarg

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My. We seem to have some real hardcases on this board.
If I read a piece, and I like the piece, and I don't have any specific criticism about the piece, I will simply post that I read and enjoyed it, as an acknowledgment that I did in fact read and enjoy it.
I will not complain if others do the same for me.
Of course, I'd prefer some sort of constructive criticism; that's why we're all here, to become better... but if one simply has none to offer, an acknowledgment that one read/understood/appreciated/enjoyed the piece is fine with me.
I'm not going to be like, "If you can't say something negative, then keep your damn mouth shut!"

Nobody here has said that.

But most people want a thoughtful critique that has something to say beyond, "That was nice." Especially after they've spent time giving others in-depth comments. It's a bit one-sided.

Shelley

I think you have to take the comments you get and be glad you got any at all.

It does feel unfair to put more work into things than another does, but in what arena of life is that sort of unbalanced exchange not the norm? If we weren't okay with the very solid chance that would happen, we wouldn't write in-depth crits in the first place.

When I'm critting, I'm doing it because I think of it as a service to the community as a whole, including new members I might never have seen if they hadn't found a vibrant community rather than people being parsimonious with their help. If someone irks me, I'm no saint; I'll become less interested in helping them. But I'm not looking for a very even exchange. That's not the way most people work. People are largely selfish and will take more than they give. That's life. Some of them, though, shown a little generosity, become less selfish, maybe even generous themselves. If we don't set an example ourselves, though, why should they?

Some people don't have the skill or knowledge to contribute to every different writer or style or genre, either. So they help where they can, which may be not much. Seems fair to me. Maybe they help more elsewhere, or will contribute more in time.

For myself, I make a lot of detailed crits but also find it's quality as much as quantity of crit work that counts. Sometimes you can point out a single quite important thing and be gone, leaving the author (and his ego) breathing room to think, and reconsider. Saying something quick and useful and then leaving ample room for others to contribute can also be an artful way to keep from being irritatingly omnipresent and stifling conversation, too.

So I don't try to parse too finely on the crit exchange rate. People do the best they can, or they don't. It's more important that the forum in general participates and keeps growing even as old members leave than that we try to find the few perfect members we can ally ourselves with against the others.
 
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