How many Christians here are burnt out on church?

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Puddle Jumper

I think the topic has been discussed in various threads but I'm not sure there is a thread specifically about this. I'm curious as to how many Christians on this board do not go to church because they're burnt out on church? You still love God, but things have happened in your experience with churches that makes you just not want to go. You feel like saying, "I love God, I'm just not crazy about all by siblings."

I'm one who fits into this category. I got burnt out on church. After the third church I was a member of forced one of its pastors out under bad circumstances and in every church, it was a pastor who I'd come to respect and care about, I found my heart couldn't take it. And having no one in the church care one ounce about me made me feel the lonliest I'd ever felt in my entire life. But I haven't given up on God because I know enough to know that humans fall short and that you can't look at humans and think that God is the same way.

I wish I could find a church where people embraced the truth and were filled with love and humility.

There's a song that I like on the "My Utmost for His Highest" album. The song is titled "Sometimes He Comes in the Clouds" and is sung by Steven Curtis Chapman.

Sometimes he comes in the rain and we question the pain and wonder why God can seem so far away. But time will show us, he was right here with us.
I have come to feel that the reason why I have experienced this, why I have come to a place where I seem to loathe the idea of going to church is so that I can relate to the many people in the world who also have experienced a burn-out on church. Online especially I seem to meet a lot of these people and have found it comforting to know I'm not alone in feeling this way.
 

Lyra Jean

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I am not burnt out on church. I can never stay awake long enough to figure out what is going on. (I may have narcolepsy and I'm looking into it to see if I can fix my problem.)

Why do I go? I have a good christian boyfriend who wants me to stay strong in my faith. He tries very hard to help me stay awake and sometimes I do.
 

kelker11

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Every church I've attended has either been very clique-ish (reminding me of high school where you had to be one of the cool kids to belong), had extreme ideals that didn't coincide with what I believe, or was dead (I might as well have been in a meeting at work for all the Spirit I felt there). Sometimes around here, it seems like the church's extra-cirricular activities actually outweigh the services.

I'd like to think I just haven't found the right church--I am praying that God will direct me to a good one, where His Spirit lives, people are loving and kind...you know, the kind of church you visual when you think "I want to go to church". People on fire for Him. That's what I want.

I live in Georgia, south of Atlanta, in the Henry County area. So if anyone knows of a church like that around here--PLEASE email me.

Di
 

Tim Dixon

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I don't want to sound rude, but maybe you should think about church being a place where you can be of service and love to others an not a place that has to feed you. It feels like, at least in America, the church has to be a feel-good place that fulfills some emotional need for the members. I don't see that as a Biblical model for the Church. I also am not criticizing anyone in particular, just challenging you to look beyond your own needs and try to figure out how you might bless someone else.
 

Puddle Jumper

kelker11 said:
I'd like to think I just haven't found the right church--I am praying that God will direct me to a good one, where His Spirit lives, people are loving and kind...you know, the kind of church you visual when you think "I want to go to church". People on fire for Him. That's what I want.
Imagine the kind of church we could form if everyone who felt as we did formed our own church?

I haven't gone to my church in quite some time. But there were certains things I didn't like. In my favorite service (favorite mainly because of the music style of worship they used which was unique from all the other services) the people in charge up on stage would usually say every week not to worry, they would get us out of there on time for the big game. That bothered me. If I would rather watch a game on tv than be in church, I'd stay home. I go to church because I'm passionate for the Lord and worshiping Him with other believers. I'm not eager to get back home to do something else.

On the flip side, in the other services the pastor has a tendancy to drone on and on and is very politically minded - one of his biggest passions is to inspire the congregation to get politically active. I don't go to church to hear a sermon about getting politically active. I want a sermon that will help me grow spiritually, teach me how to walk the walk and not how to vote.

I hate seeing cliques in church. I've never liked them and I rather despise them. In my experience when I find people who become close friends, neither them or myself exclude anyone else from hanging out with us. I've been in groups of friends where people come and go but they go on their own, we don't push them away. When I feel pushed away I feel sad, though it is their problem and not mine.

I think some of the worst people for being "cliquish" are pastors and pastors wives. The excuse that I've heard is that because everyone wants to be their friend, they can't be friends with everyone. And what they end up doing is promoting cliquiness. (Is that a word?) I'm sure that could feel overwhelming at times being in a leadership position where everyone wants a piece of your time, some who would like to develop a deeper friendship with you. But my thought in the matter is if I were in such a position where so many people were wanting to be my friend - "Who am I to turn anyone away?"

If I trust God, I will trust God to guide these people. If they seem to really want to be friends with me and get to know me, then maybe I should take that as a sign that God has put that person in my life for me to befriend, perhaps mentor and be a role-model. But usually I see pastors and their wives don't want to befriend people who seem desperate for friendship, people who are needy for positive Christian relationships.

Which really throws out what the Bible says that we are to live as broken people. What I see is pastors and their wives wanting friends who are mature, they want to raise leaders up to lead others, they don't want to deal directly with the little people. So I think they lead by example and this example is passed to those that they lead many times.

In my experience, I've seen more cliques in bigger churches. I think you really begin to lose a family like atmosphere when a church gets to be so big. It definitely starts to become a lot more impersonal and from what I've seen, a lot more like a country club.
 

Puddle Jumper

Tim Dixon said:
I don't want to sound rude, but maybe you should think about church being a place where you can be of service and love to others an not a place that has to feed you. It feels like, at least in America, the church has to be a feel-good place that fulfills some emotional need for the members. I don't see that as a Biblical model for the Church. I also am not criticizing anyone in particular, just challenging you to look beyond your own needs and try to figure out how you might bless someone else.
We were not created to be islands unto ourselves. We need other people. We need God, but He also created us to need the fellowship of others.

I don't care how strong a Christian you are, if you are only around people who are mean to you, snub you, are unkind to you, and you have no one who is there encouraging you, praying with you, keeping you accountable and showing that they love and care about you, you will eventually become like those you are around. It can occur slowly and gradually over a long time, it did for me, I never noticed I was changing until one day I took a good look at my life to see I was a different person than when I was younger in my faith because of all the negatives other Christians put into my life and the lack of positives.

We are all seed planters and we all plant seeds in others. If people keep planting bad seeds in us, it will affect us.

It's all good to say that we should be focused on others and their needs and not our own. That we should focus on blessing others. But there is such a thing as burn-out.

Biblical proof? Look at the model for marriage found in Ephesians where it talks about wives submitting to their husbands and husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church. If the husband is loving his wife in the manner in which Christ loves the church, she will feel so complete and fulfilled that it will be her joy to submit to her husband. And if she is loving and submitting to her husband and showing him respect, it will be his joy to love her sacrificially placing her above himself. The Biblical model for relationships shows that if we are being cared for by others we can care for others and all is Godliness.

Likewise Jesus told us to in humility, treat everyone as better than ourselves. If we all treat everyone that way then we will feel the same as those we are treating. We will all feel fulfilled.

Problems come when only one person is living according to how the Bible tells us. If we are loving others sacrificially and placing them above ourselves and no one is loving us in the same way - we will eventually burn out. That's human nature plain and simple. Because this is a sinful world and sin is all around us and even as Christians we still feel tempation and are capable of falling to sin. And God is distant, He is not detectable by any of our physical senses. And so when you lose all relationships with Christians and have no one else helping you on your journey, slowly you begin to lose focus and stray off the path. This is how Christians become lost sheep. Like the parable where the Good Shepperd had to leave the 99 sheep in his flock to go find the one who became lost. If that sheep was in Christ's flock to begin with and somehow strayed away and became lost, they were a Christian. Maybe the other 99 sheep were all being cliquish and were unkind and uncaring to the one. And so the one got its feelings hurt and went off alone somewhere to cry but no one cared that they had left and the flock moved on or perhaps the sheep moved off on its own too grieved to realize it was becoming lost.

The Bible very clearly shows us we need positive relationships with other Christians. The Bible tells us we should not give up the habit of meeting together - it says that because we need fellowship to survive. But if your fellowship with others is tainted because everyone is being selfish, no one is being truly humble, then even fellowship can be harmful.

There's a saying that the single greatest cause of atheism in the world are Christians who confess Jesus with their lips and deny Him with their lifestyle. It doesn't just cause atheism, it's a cancer in the body of believers seperating Christians from each other and causing some believers to become lost, though not unsaved, merely strayed from the flock and hurting because no one in the family of God cares one bit about them.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Puddle Jumper said:
I think the topic has been discussed in various threads but I'm not sure there is a thread specifically about this. I'm curious as to how many Christians on this board do not go to church because they're burnt out on church? You still love God, but things have happened in your experience with churches that makes you just not want to go. You feel like saying, "I love God, I'm just not crazy about all by siblings."

I'm one who fits into this category. I got burnt out on church. After the third church I was a member of forced one of its pastors out under bad circumstances and in every church, it was a pastor who I'd come to respect and care about, I found my heart couldn't take it. And having no one in the church care one ounce about me made me feel the lonliest I'd ever felt in my entire life. But I haven't given up on God because I know enough to know that humans fall short and that you can't look at humans and think that God is the same way.

I wish I could find a church where people embraced the truth and were filled with love and humility.

There's a song that I like on the "My Utmost for His Highest" album. The song is titled "Sometimes He Comes in the Clouds" and is sung by Steven Curtis Chapman.


I have come to feel that the reason why I have experienced this, why I have come to a place where I seem to loathe the idea of going to church is so that I can relate to the many people in the world who also have experienced a burn-out on church. Online especially I seem to meet a lot of these people and have found it comforting to know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

God says go. If you're burnt out on church, maybe it's because you're the one who's supposed to be lighting the fire.

There are all sorts of reasons and excuses for not going, but God says go, and when God says go, then you go.
 

Nateskate

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The hunt for real Christians.

Once upon a time, in a far, far away kingdom, there was a wide-eyed boy, searching for meaning in the Universe. He listened to atheists, and gurus, and read books on the occult. These only caused more questions than answers.

Deep down, hardcore atheism, which I leaned to, was indefensible, in that it is always no more than an opinion, and based upon certain Archetypes. Many of the atheists I knew were either mislabeled agnostics, angry at God and protesting his existence, or arrogant, and not wanting a god to interfere with their agendas.

In an Archetype, you start with a collective conclusion and weigh the evidence accordingly, like a stacked deck. "I don't believe in God". Once you start with that premise, then you look for all that is wrong in the world- social injustice, Tsunamis, and you avoid all that is right with the world.

Ultimately, I had to honestly admit, my unbelief was based on the fact that I didn't think the Universe was fair. Not that it wasn't good, but only that it seemed things happened randomly, especially insofar as mankind goes. You don't get to choose your parents, your intelligence, your looks, and so you have these gaps in fairness, where some seem to have one the lottery, and others are sadly thrown into chaos not of their choosing.

Sifting through my brothers pagan libraries, I found interesting stories. At least someone had seen something to suggest there was more to this world than salt, carbon and water. My question with these many paths, was that God seemed milk-toast, who caved in his personality to be manipulated by spells and incantations. It was the tail waging the dog.

If we were in control, then WE were doing a horrible job. If God dropped a box of mystical legos in our laps, and just let us at it, learning to juggle through spells, then why were people using them so selfishly, to "Make others do what you want them to do"-take away their free will.

Now, I'm going to be a little metaphorical here. What if a three eyed wart toad, sitting on a day lillie could cast a spell and make me fall in love with it? Now am I benefited or a victim whose will is stollen?

And frankly, it went well beyond that. I simply knew too many people who were malicious and self-centered, and I believe the truth would make people more loving, less demanding, more "other" focused. But being disenfranchised, and at the time, feeling ugly, which I wasn't. I panicked and wondered if anyone would ever fall in love with me. The ability to make someone love you was tempting. However, in the end, I knew I wanted someone to choose me, and that was the beautiful option, otherwise they were no more than a robot serving my selfish desires. (Tempting)

Still, I figured this was also a puppet/puppetmaster area. Do people have intrinsic power, or are they given powers, Example, Pilate saying to Jesus, "Do you not know I have the power to kill you or free you..."

Jesus answer, "You have NO power, except that which is given to you from above..." Even Satan needed permission to take Judas, and Jesus said, "Go quickly and do what you must do..." Then he entered Judas.

I'm only saying what things I was working through. There are clearly good spirits and bad spirits, and spirits can change form. How could you know you were not dealing with an evil spirit pretending to be a good spirit. And when I looked at spiritists, reading Taylor Caldwell, and looking into Edgar Cayce- well, I could go on and on.

The point is that I was not simply looking for a place to "choose" as if I shopped for a religion. I wanted truth, even if the truth was that there was no God, and we just made up stories to comfort ourselves.

Obviously, if God is God, then he doesn't fit in a box, or our pre-conceived notions. And if any accounts of God were true, then God is able to hear. And I assumed, if God could hear, then why not ask him, "Who are you? Where can I find you? Are all religions a road that leads to you?"

Well, getting an atheist to say a prayer is no small chore. Lets just say, God has a way of getting past our quirks. So, eventually I came to the conclusion that Jesus was the Messiah of the Old Testament. Then later, he was God and not simply a man.

Now, I'm in the middle of a proverbial ocean of choices, and realized that the churches were in a mess, misguided (most) outright decieved (more than a few) and filled with people who had no idea who God was, who Christ was, how they fit in, or what their purpose was in life.

Concerning churches, in general, there is no perfect church. As long as men fill the pews, that will continue to be so. The question though, is not "Where is the best church?" But either, "Where is the best place to grow" for right now. "Where does God want me to be right now..." And these questions are not answers people find over night. In general, "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened, and ask and it shall be given" applies.

If our hearts are in the right place, God has a way of taking care of the rest. So the larger issue is always dealing with the stuff in side of us, which may be attitudes, prejudices, stubborness...etc. Being "Alone" is counter-intuitive to Christ's prayer, "That they may be one, even as you and I are one" (See John 17) You can't be one isolated and apart from others.

So, the question is this, "Do we tollerate sup-standard places where there are flawed people?" According to the churches Paul address, and Jesus addressed in Revelations 2-3, if you want to find a really good church, start by going to a nation where Christians are impoverished, and suffering persecution. If you want to find selfish, and self-centered churches, then start by looking in places of relative wealth and ease.

Of course that is a little tongue in cheek answer. But it is true that sorrows and trials purify people. "What's more we rejoice in our suffering...for suffering produces...character..." Since most would prefer not changing countries, or cities, I think the best we can do is find the best imperfect church, and the best people within that imperfect church, until something better comes along.

And be proactive. I have said, "The difference between a critic and a prophet are motivation". Both see the problem, one sits on the sidelines complaining about it, the other gets in the game and tries to do something about it.

In other words, we will do better in a flawed church trying to make it a better church, presuming if we see a problem, maybe we were put there to fix it, rather than disbanding from fellowship because we can find nothing but imperfect people.

The whole idea of Paul comparing us to parts of a body, was to imply every part is needed for the whole to opperate right. And not only do we need others, but they need every bit of what we have to offer. So, it comes down to a wisdom decision, "Why was I put on this earth?" If God wants me to have fellowship, which is actually commanded in Hebrews, "Do not forsake the fellowshiping...as some are prone to do..."

But I think its' that sense of futility, "Who am I? What can I do," vs faith, "God can raise up children...from rocks" And if God can use a rock, he can use me...and maybe I am the solution or a catalyst to the solution.
 

Robin Bayne

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I find this topic very interesting and have just ordered a related book, called "Revolution"-from www.prophecynewswatch.com

I see more and more fellow Christians who are getting more from home groups and online fellowships than they are from churches filled with routines and traditions.
 

kelker11

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Inspiewriter said:
I find this topic very interesting and have just ordered a related book, called "Revolution"-from www.prophecynewswatch.com . I see more and more fellow Christians who are getting more from home groups and online fellowships than they are from churches filled with routines and traditions.
I checked out the website you mentioned and found the blurb from the book, Revolution. It starts out like this:

There is a new breed of Christ-follower in America today. These are people who are more interested in being the Church than in going to church. They are more eager to produce fruit for the kingdom of God than to become comfortable in the Christian subculture.

I think that describes what I'm feeling exactly!

I'm not opposed to church, don't dislike going, and I'm not 'against' churches in any way. But if I'm going to go, I want my time there to be of value. And while childrens plays, different programs, or discussion of field trips may have their place in the church world--they are not THE point of church.

One church my family has visited three different times (its my brothers church of choice so he invites us often) is socially oriented. They constantly have family programs, outings, etc...but not once in three visits to the church have I seen or heard the pastor preach--he's never there. On one visit, apparently the person designated to speak in the pastors place didn't show or was late, because someone from the congregation got up to speak, and it was blaringly obvious that the man didn't really know his Bible. You could tell that while he did know some scriptures, he had no faith in their power. And if memory serves me correctly, he was an elder of the church. The church has no statement of faith. You can asked members what they believe, what is taught, etc --and they can't tell you.

I know that no church will be perfect, but if I want social activities, I have friends for that. I want a church where the preacher knows the Bible better than I do. I want to be able to learn when I go there. I want a place where worshipping God is prevalent in their attitudes and actions. I want God--not social activities or cliques or trips--to have priority.

Yes, I should be a help and blessing to others. As believers, we all want that. But church should be a place where my knowledge of Christ and His teaching is enriched--not where He's given second place to everything else the church is doing.

James--I agree with you too. It is God's command. But that doesn't mean any church will do. I believe that God has a place for each of us. Its up to us, through seeking His will by prayer, that we will be lead to where He wants us to be. Until we find that place, I don't think we can be content just anywhere.
 

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Puddle Jumper said:
We were not created to be islands unto ourselves. We need other people. We need God, but He also created us to need the fellowship of others.

I don't care how strong a Christian you are, if you are only around people who are mean to you, snub you, are unkind to you, and you have no one who is there encouraging you, praying with you, keeping you accountable and showing that they love and care about you, you will eventually become like those you are around. It can occur slowly and gradually over a long time, it did for me, I never noticed I was changing until one day I took a good look at my life to see I was a different person than when I was younger in my faith because of all the negatives other Christians put into my life and the lack of positives.

We are all seed planters and we all plant seeds in others. If people keep planting bad seeds in us, it will affect us.

It's all good to say that we should be focused on others and their needs and not our own. That we should focus on blessing others. But there is such a thing as burn-out.

I agree that man is a social being, but there's a difference in saying that and in saying that we are dependenton the fellowship of others. Think of the great saints--John Bunyan, alone in prison for years, writing Pilgrim's Progress; the apostle Paul, abandoned by all in the Philippian prison, and yet saying, "I have learned in whatever state I am to be content"--his spiritual walk was not hindered by lack of fellowship. There's a deeper secret; Christ must be sufficient, He must be "enough" in the final analysis, even when our life is in the pits. This only comes about when you can see things, events, and people with God's perspective...and see it all as 'good' because it is His sovereign will for you. It's the difference between reluctantly 'kicking and screaming' and accepting His will when things aren't going well versus embracing His will--all of it, even the 'bad times.' The one who embraces His will even when it means people are treating him poorly, is the one who loves God more than self, who loves God's will more than his own--and that is a tall order, indeed. There are not many who have that same agape (sacrificial) love for God that He has for them.
Biblical proof? Look at the model for marriage found in Ephesians where it talks about wives submitting to their husbands and husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church. If the husband is loving his wife in the manner in which Christ loves the church, she will feel so complete and fulfilled that it will be her joy to submit to her husband. And if she is loving and submitting to her husband and showing him respect, it will be his joy to love her sacrificially placing her above himself. The Biblical model for relationships shows that if we are being cared for by others we can care for others and all is Godliness.
The Biblical perspective is not conditional in this way; there are no "ifs". The actions of the marriage partners are not conditional on the other person treating them the way God would have them treat them. Marriage is actually a picture of Christ's love for us. And Christ did not wait for us to treat Him the way we ought before He decided to love us sacrificially, and even die for us. The Bible says, that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". That is the true Biblical model. And that should be our example in earthly marriage, or any relationship. We love GOD by loving others; we can continue to love Him by loving others even when they are unlovable, because it is actually God we are loving and serving when we love and serve them.
Likewise Jesus told us to in humility, treat everyone as better than ourselves. If we all treat everyone that way then we will feel the same as those we are treating. We will all feel fulfilled.
That's assuming your fulfillment comes from how people treat you. But the paradox of the Bible is that 'getting' is not fulfilling; doing the will of God is fulfilling. That's why you can treat others as you would have them treat you, and even if they don't respond in kind, you can still feel fulfilled...because your will is one with God's. (This is not to say you won't feel sadness or grief from the treatment of others; but you will have an abiding peace regardless.)
Problems come when only one person is living according to how the Bible tells us. If we are loving others sacrificially and placing them above ourselves and no one is loving us in the same way - we will eventually burn out. That's human nature plain and simple. Because this is a sinful world and sin is all around us and even as Christians we still feel tempation and are capable of falling to sin. And God is distant, He is not detectable by any of our physical senses. And so when you lose all relationships with Christians and have no one else helping you on your journey, slowly you begin to lose focus and stray off the path. This is how Christians become lost sheep. Like the parable where the Good Shepperd had to leave the 99 sheep in his flock to go find the one who became lost. If that sheep was in Christ's flock to begin with and somehow strayed away and became lost, they were a Christian. Maybe the other 99 sheep were all being cliquish and were unkind and uncaring to the one. And so the one got its feelings hurt and went off alone somewhere to cry but no one cared that they had left and the flock moved on or perhaps the sheep moved off on its own too grieved to realize it was becoming lost.
If no one were loving you and God was distant, yes, you'd burn out. But Someone is loving you, and He's not at all distant; it's just that self--especially wounded self--can distance itself from God. The Shepherd doesn't wander from the sheep; the sheep is the wanderer. And when that sheep wanders, it doesn't need the flock, but it does need to feel the Shepherd's arms around it. It needs to keep from wandering in the first place by listening to the Shepherd's voice, even if all the other sheep are snubbing, wandering, bleating, or whatever.
The Bible very clearly shows us we need positive relationships with other Christians. The Bible tells us we should not give up the habit of meeting together - it says that because we need fellowship to survive. But if your fellowship with others is tainted because everyone is being selfish, no one is being truly humble, then even fellowship can be harmful.

Jesus said, "Unless you 'hate' your mother, father, sister, brother,etc. you cannot be my disciple." Even close relationships are to be held loosely; loved for the gift they are, but acknowledged as the loan that they are. We are to not forsake the habit of fellowshiping together because it is conducive to spiritual growth, but it is not mandatory for it. I agree some 'fellowship' can be harmful (eg. abusive people)--but these extremes are rare, and the occasional failings of others are some of the ways He tests and purifies the dross out of us. God's ultimate purpose is not for our 'personal happiness,' but it is for us to grow into the image of His Son, and the closer we are to that image, the happier we are for that to be our goal as well.
There's a saying that the single greatest cause of atheism in the world are Christians who confess Jesus with their lips and deny Him with their lifestyle. It doesn't just cause atheism, it's a cancer in the body of believers seperating Christians from each other and causing some believers to become lost, though not unsaved, merely strayed from the flock and hurting because no one in the family of God cares one bit about them.
There are hypocrites in all walks of life, and no Christian will be 'perfect' until he reaches heaven. But hypocrisy does not do away with the free will of every sheep--to choose to stay close to the Shepherd and His voice, or to wander off, and blame the other sheep for leading him astray. Even Job in all his friendless misery said, "though He slay me, yet will I follow Him". It's a tough road when you can't find healthy fellowship, but it's still possible to stay close to Him, especially because it causes you to find your all in Him.
 

Shwebb

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Pat, that was an awesome response!

I agree--if God is one's source of strength, then we won't burn out. God is ultimately our source of healing, strength, ability to minister.

I'm not burnt out on church at all--just frustrated in my attempts to find one. It would be great if I saw a huge finger come from out of the sky and point to the place I'm supposed to go. But we all know that ain't gonna happen!

Over the last few years, the healing I have experienced has come from being away from the church and spending time with God, getting to know him, and understanding His expectations of me. And learning how to accept His blessings--that's been the most difficult lesson of all.
 

Lyra Jean

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I love my church. Yes, often I am asleep to my utmost shame and I don't always agree with what my pastor says but I have learned a great deal and have grown in my faith. I'm not afraid to talk about my faith, I pray more, and I read my bible more.

My church is Sawyer Road Baptist Church in Sarasota FL. I don't know if any of you are in my area but you are welcome to come. We are a small church and looking for other christians to fellowship with.

Sunday school: 10 am
Sunday service: 11 am
Sunday evening: 6:30 pm

Wednesday evening: 6:30pm
 

Puddle Jumper

You can appeal with logic all you want, the problem is my brain and my heart aren't matching up. My problem is that I get it, I understand Christianity on a very deep level, I know the answers - but my heart has been so battered that its instinct is to avoid anyone or anything that causes it pain and right now that place in church and other believers. So I have a war raging between my heart and my mind and my heart keeps winning because it feels the more strongly. Essentially I'm feeling burn-out and frustration - frustrated because I want to be a part of a church, I want to be in fellowship with other believers, but past experiences are keeping me away.

So you can give me all the logical explanations you want but I already understand all the logical explanations. My brain is convinced, my heart is not. My understanding is not what's hurting. But in all of it I also have peace because my heart believes my brain when it says that we don't go through dark times in life without reason. Most likely I have a lesson to learn which I've not learned yet. At least that's what my heart hopes.
 
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Canada James

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Church is important, but so is our understanding of what Church is and is not.

Church is not the pastor. It is not the bricks. It is not even the sermons.

Church is the body of Christ, the people who gather together for the sole purpose of worshipping Him. Jesus did say that where 2 or more gather, so shall he be. You don't need hundreds of people to have a Church, you just need a group of people dedicated to the Word of God as we are given it through Scripture. (Helps to have a guide who is dedicated to studying it.)

Try reading (it's very, very short) "Church, Why Bother?" by Philip Yancy. If nothing else it may change your perception of the Church, and free you to find what you've been needing.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310243130/qid=1131519687/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8089604-3834361?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

*whoever it was that said they might have a sleep disorder:
I had to go to a sleep clinic to get tested. I don't have narcolepsy, but I do have sleep apnea. I also have trouble staying awake and often just fall asleep.
 

Shwebb

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Puddle Jumper said:
You can appeal with logic all you want, the problem is my brain and my heart aren't matching up. My problem is that I get it, I understand Christianity on a very deep level, I know the answers - but my heart has been so battered that its instinct is to avoid anyone or anything that causes it pain and right now that place in church and other believers. So I have a war raging between my heart and my mind and my heart keeps winning because it feels the more strongly. Essentially I'm feeling burn-out and frustration - frustrated because I want to be a part of a church, I want to be in fellowship with other believers, but past experiences are keeping me away.

So you can give me all the logical explanations you want but I already understand all the logical explanations. My brain is convinced, my heart is not. My understanding is not what's hurting. But in all of it I also have peace because my heart believes my brain when it says that we don't go through dark times in life without reason. Most likely I have a lesson to learn which I've not learned yet. At least that's what my heart hopes.
I understand where you are. And God is bringing me out of that same place.

I have had to find out God's opinion of me, instead of the hurtful opinions that others have had--what their opinion of God's opinion was regarding me. (I hope that sentence makes sense, because it's too early in the morning for me to edit it!) Granted, my church experiences were probably not typical, and not all of it was bad, but some of it did terrible, painful damage. Couple that with my home life, and it was a disastrous mix. But that's not God's fault.

God told me once that He was going to restore everything others have taken from me. I hold on to that promise! And He is doing it, but sometimes only as quickly as I allow Him to. Even now, I hold Him back from that, but He lets me know when I do. But God is a gentleman--He doesn't push. And I know He's also okay with me, where I am, right now. His grace, for me, is that He is able to see me as He has called me to be, as the completed work. I take hope from that vision.

And as frustrated as I am about finding a church, I know that, in time, I will find one. I'm not expecting a perfect church, but I am expecting to find the right one for me--one that will welcome me and my children, that will be open to using the gifts that God has given to us all.
 

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Puddle Jumper said:
You can appeal with logic all you want, the problem is my brain and my heart aren't matching up. My problem is that I get it, I understand Christianity on a very deep level, I know the answers - but my heart has been so battered that its instinct is to avoid anyone or anything that causes it pain and right now that place in church and other believers. So I have a war raging between my heart and my mind and my heart keeps winning because it feels the more strongly. Essentially I'm feeling burn-out and frustration - frustrated because I want to be a part of a church, I want to be in fellowship with other believers, but past experiences are keeping me away.

So you can give me all the logical explanations you want but I already understand all the logical explanations. My brain is convinced, my heart is not. My understanding is not what's hurting. But in all of it I also have peace because my heart believes my brain when it says that we don't go through dark times in life without reason. Most likely I have a lesson to learn which I've not learned yet. At least that's what my heart hopes.

I understand that war between the heart and the mind. The heart is governed by emotion, the mind by logic. It's interesting that the Bible teaches that all of our speech and action flows out of the heart (rather than the mind). That's why simply 'reprogramming the mind with truth' is not the whole answer to changing our behaviors; I firmly believe that we have to develop a passion for choosing the right choices (a passion for pleasing God), because we are driven by our passions, not our logic. Fear is one of the primary emotions of mankind; the only thing stronger and more compelling is Love. (And now I'm starting to sound like my book here...bear with me!) I think that God will give you the grace to operate out of a LOVE base rather than a FEAR base, but He only gives the grace one step at a time--to keep us totally dependent on Him. Six years ago I was in the pits; but God was using it to teach me this type of dependence--and coaxing me one step at a time to make my choices from a love base rather than a fear base. (I was clinically depressed and anorexic, and on a self-destruct mode.) As I finally turned to the Bible in desperation, He began teaching me that operating from a Love base requires coming to the altar of obedience; giving up my fearful instincts in love to Him, and making choices that preferred His ways over my own harmful ones. Like Gideon, I am a total wimp my nature; but God did a major work in my life by supplying the courage I needed for each step He showed me to take. It took time; give yourself time, and much grace (because God does). When you reach the point where you love Him so much for who He's revealed Himself to be to you, then you are at the point to start laying those fears on the altar. Love always makes obedience easier--in fact, I think that we will only truly obey Him to the extent that we love Him. And that's a life-long process!

Sorry if this got rambly...
 

Puddle Jumper

I love finding secular songs that you can attribute a Christian meaning to it. I heard Bryan Adams song "Remember" the other day and listening to it, I felt like the woman he was singing about and as though it were God singing the song. God with a raspy voice - yeah. But here are the lyrics...

I just love when you can find a Christian aspect to a secular song...

Pardon me,
Have you got the time
To let me say hello?
Couldn't help but see
That you look like a lady I used to know
A long time ago.

Remember the time we spent together.
Remember the days I dreamt forever.
Remember the nights we stayed together.
Whatever I do I still remember.

It's hard to believe
That I held her up
And then she let me down.
Someone's sayin' to me
That she broke my heart and left me
Spinnin' round and round and round.

Remember the time we spent together.
Remember the days I dreamt forever.
Remember the nights we stayed together.
Whatever I do I still remember.
 

Unique

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Tim Dixon said:
I don't want to sound rude, but maybe you should think about church being a place where you can be of service and love to others an not a place that has to feed you. It feels like, at least in America, the church has to be a feel-good place that fulfills some emotional need for the members. I don't see that as a Biblical model for the Church. I also am not criticizing anyone in particular, just challenging you to look beyond your own needs and try to figure out how you might bless someone else.

It's hard to be of service when you're running on empty yourself. I go to church to be spirit filled. Then I can take my joy out into the world and share it. When I come out of church feeling worse than when I went in - then something's seriously wrong.

I check to see if it's me - but sometimes it's not me. I think churches need to minister to the body they have and quit trying to chase down those 'unbelievers' who don't want to be there any way. The best witness is a joyful life and it's darn hard to find out in the world and it seems like it's getting harder to find in the church as well.
 

Lyra Jean

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My pastor said that non-christians shouldn't even come to church because they aren't christian, although he will not turn them away. He has seen churches get rendered in two because non-christians gained power and tore it in half because they wanted to do things a certain way and get people to follow them and stuff.

He also says that church for christians is like an oasis in a desert. A place where christians can go to rest, fellowship, and fill up for the coming week.

That's what I got from what he said. Those might not be his exact words. I was in a sleep haze at the time.
 

Unique

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Your pastor sounds like a smart guy, Rosemerry. I believe in missions, don't get me wrong - but to me church is a place for a spiritual 'fill-up'. It's for the existing Body of Christ, not the 'maybe someday bodies'.

It's hard to be an effective witness to others when you are having a hard time witnessing to yourself.

A lot of the churches around here are bursting at the seams because of all the new subdivisions being built. They are also trying too darn hard to please the 'masses' by offering 'Contemporary Worship' services. BLECH.

Fine - there's a place for Christian Rock/Rap/Whatever. But I don't want to hear it on Sunday from the 'Worship Team'. Especially when that 'team' has more members than the choir sitting right behind them.

I find it extremely telling that my 8 year old prefers the 'old hymns' to the 'new worship choruses'. He told me that all on his own with no influence from me. I hadn't mentioned it because I didn't want to present any negatives re: church. He just flat doesn't like the 'new stuff'.

He heard Contemporary Christian music at the roller rink the other day - it sounded like plain ol' radio music to me...but he didn't like it there either. So with this injection of 'Contemporary' - just who are we trying to persuade?

Running a bunch of social programs trying to gain new members is like pouring honey on the ground. Yes, you'll catch more flies, but sooner or later the wasps are going to show up, too. They won't pass up 'free' and pretty soon, they drive the flies away.
 

Puddle Jumper

rosemerry said:
My pastor said that non-christians shouldn't even come to church because they aren't christian, although he will not turn them away. He has seen churches get rendered in two because non-christians gained power and tore it in half because they wanted to do things a certain way and get people to follow them and stuff.

He also says that church for christians is like an oasis in a desert. A place where christians can go to rest, fellowship, and fill up for the coming week.

That's what I got from what he said. Those might not be his exact words. I was in a sleep haze at the time.
I think it's extremely rare to see non-Christians just walk into a church on their own. Unless maybe they had some kind of agenda of their own. It seems to me that a non-Christian isn't apt to come to church unless they're brought by a Christian. I'm all for that because church has an immediate personal appeal to the non-Christian through the person who brought them.

It's hard for a Christian just to start up going to a new church when they don't know anyone. At least it is for me. I think we all need that personal touch.
 

Robin Bayne

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kelker11 said:
I checked out the website you mentioned and found the blurb from the book, Revolution. It starts out like this:

There is a new breed of Christ-follower in America today. These are people who are more interested in being the Church than in going to church. They are more eager to produce fruit for the kingdom of God than to become comfortable in the Christian subculture.

I think that describes what I'm feeling exactly!

I'm not opposed to church, don't dislike going, and I'm not 'against' churches in any way. But if I'm going to go, I want my time there to be of value. .

Exactly! The book arrived today. I'll post after I read it.
 

Ralyks

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I've pretty much always gone to church out of a sense of duty. Sometimes I get something out of it, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm bored, sometimes I'm not. But God deserves our collective worship, and I can't imagine any other context under which I could collectively worship Him. Also, Christians need to be around other Christians...and I can't think of any other way to make sure I am in community with other Christians. Church is one of my few sources of friendships as well, and after a move, it is often the only source.

So I go to church and will continue to do so. I've long ago given up trying to find the "right" church or the "right" denomination. I just go and stick with it, until I move to another geogrphical area, and then I try new churches. When I move, I often try a new denomination. I've only left a church once for a reason other than a geographical move, and that was because it was becoming very, very narrow and I just wasn't comfortable there.

I've stopped being and idealist when it comes to church. I go to pay my respect to God, not to get anything for myself--and often I don't get anything for myself. I know some will say there is no sense going if you are not on fire, but I don't feel that way. Duty is not a bad thing. You've got to do what is right even on those days when your heart isn't exactly in it. I wish I loved playing Ring Around the Rosie for the tenth time with my daughter today--I wish my heart were in it--but its not. But I do it anyway, because I love her.

I wish things were other than they are, but in all my church-hopping, I've never found that church that set me on fire...so I will hunker down and do my duty wherever I happen to be, and get and give what I can.
 
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Ralyks

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Unique said:
the 'masses' by offering 'Contemporary Worship' services. BLECH.

My church offers both contemporary and traditional services. To each his own. I am glad people who relate to God in different ways can find different styles of worship. I just hope that those who relate best through the richness of tradition aren't left by the wayside in the rush to assist others to relate. My problem with the contemporary worship is that "temporary" part of the word. I don't want the temporary, I want the permanent. I don't want what's hot today, I want what's been anchored in time, passed down from generation to generation, tying people togehter acorss the years.

I'm relatively young, but I think more and more evangelical Christians are overlooking people like me who long for the beauty and richness and permancy of tradition, of something that extends back into the ages and trancends the temporary. They tend to think all Christians of my generation want what's "hip." Hey, I love rock n' roll--but I got to be honest, the secular world offers a much better version of it than the Christian church. I like community service, but I can do that without the church. I like hanging out with friends, but I can do that without the church. The secular world can give me everything the "contemporary" church can give me--and often give it better. What the secular world can't give me is the anchor of tradition and a sense of the wonder and awe of God. And I don't feel awed by God in a contemporary service. But hey, some people do. So I hope to see both forms continue. I fear, though, the more traditional is slowly dying. I'm not just talking about music here--I'm talking about the dumbing down of liturgy (or its nonexistence), the rewriting of scripture to make it more "accessible," the slow draining away of the beauty and complexity and intricacy of Christianity.
 
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