Thinking Like the Bad Guys

TheIT

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... and it's making my head hurt. :D

I considered starting this thread up in Novels, but figured it would fit better here. I'm trying to work out the villains' plans in my current WIP and I keep running into problems. Two sets of villains in this story - one set I know pretty well, but the other is still rather nebulous. I'm thinking that's where my trouble is. Hard to plan something when one doesn't know the nature of the people involved.

When you're working out your M/T/S story, how much do you preplan before jumping in and writing? Do you plot out what the villain's trying to accomplish ahead of time, or do you let it unfold as you write?
 

Sassy3421

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I suppose most of the time I start with an idea of what propels my villains - their agendas, and motivations. I might picture and even write some scenes as they strike me. But as with most characters, I find they develop to their full potential as the story moves along.
 

TheIT

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Hmmm... My novel starts after both sets of villains put their plans into motion, so I think I need to figure out who's done what so far and what their contingency plans are (if any). Both plans are about to get majorly derailed. Once the story starts, then it's a matter of move/countermove.

Feels like the actual novel is going to be the tip of the iceberg with a lot of the action happening either before it starts or offstage from my POV characters.
 

heyjude

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TheIT, I usually start out with no idea of anything but the characters. A bit of the way in I stop and jot down some notes on motivations, history, etc, on paper, just to help me wrap my mind around it. It usually comes pretty smoothly--it's there, it just needs teased out a bit.

I love flying by the seat of my pants. :D
 

ToddWBush

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Outlined mostly in the past. But with these short stories I've been writing, I have kind of just had a vague idea of what the start of the story is, then just start writing.
 

sheadakota

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I have no idea what is going on until I start to write- I love that-it surpises me on a daily basis- I might have to stop and figure it out at some point and maybe even change a few minor things once i do figure it out, but I wouldn't do it any other way-

If i had to sit down and figure it out before I wrote- I would never finish anything-
 

Exile87

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Usually I have a vague idea of what my villains will be up to when I begin writing. (I guess it helps that my main villain has one main goal for the entire length of my trilogy! ha!) I second what the others have said about knowing your villains' motivations, too. Because actions mean nothing unless the reader knows why the villain is doing what their doing.
 

Ruv Draba

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It's getting so that I'm putting more effort into my MTS adversaries than my mains. I feel that they need to be at least as interesting, or they won't give the main something taxing to grow against.

What matters most to me in my adversaries are their passions, visions and style. Even when I'm outlining I don't need to know their plans in tiny minutiae, but I need to have a clear vision for what they want, a feel for how much they want it and why, and for what sort of impact they have on the world around them. Based on that, I can improvise their responses to situations and build backstory whenever I please.

I find that the best way to develop my adversaries is to ignore the main completely. Think about the adversary's world -- its own challenges and influences. Think about their ideal world -- how the adversary wants things to be. Think about the reality and the setbacks it creates. Bring myself to the point where I not only sympathise for them, but want them to succeeed -- then their passion has caught me. Once I have vision, passion and style I draw back and look at things through my main's viewpoint and get a sense of:
  • Those areas where their passions, vision or style actually agree;
  • What my adversary could teach my main;
  • What my main could teach my adversary;
  • How their passion, vision and style come into conflict and why that conflict is both irreconcileable and "impossible" for my main to overcome.
Then I'm ready to develop the plot -- either by outline or just writing it, depending on what process I think best suits the story.
 

Takvah

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It should make your head hurt. You should be examining the motives and the reasoning of your villain in a three dimensional way. You should be trying to punch holes through the logic... because your readers will. If the rationale for a villain's actions are suspect it ruins a story for me... so yeah, obsess about it. I know I do! :D
 

Said The Sun

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My villain is so brilliantly toxic, he intimidates both me and my MC. Sometimes we don't know how to approach him. But by God, we try.
 

quicklime

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i don;t think you need to outline (not knocking it, if it works, by all means do) but I think it is helpful to at least as "why?"

If your good guy is being chased, there should be a reason. More nuance can come from character develpment, but I need to have some idea of why before I can start anything.....

why is my protag on a death spree? his wife was murdered.

why was she murdered? punks and thrill-seekers

why specifically? wrong place, wrong time, and she is asian in a very white town...and beautiful.....resentment builds

why resentment? bigotry and mysogyny and a couple failed come-ons


why death spree instead of going to police? no death penalty for bad guys, no desire to live, and avoid prison, for protag.


lots of whys I am not comfrotable writing without some notion of. I know some people just jump in, but I like to look a bit before I leap, although I have not done an outline yet. I generally know why, and have an idea of story arc
 

cbenoi1

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> Hard to plan something when one doesn't know the nature of the people involved.

My method around that is to write the story from everyone's perspectives, then cut the parts that shields the reader from some information so the story unravels naturally. In other words, I write from the villain's perspective as well as the hero's. Those parts that I know will be cut, I go with telling versus showing. Telling is more efficient.

When it's not clear in my head what is everyone's motives and how they should evolve with time, I pop in Dramatica Pro, plug in my hero's data, my villain, then plug whatever character I'm having trouble with in-between. That helps me visualize the whole story at a glance and dig down into character motivations and typical scenes where those motivations can be shown.

Hope this helps.

-cb
 

orion_mk3

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I read a quote in an old writing book that has been my watchword on the subject: "Villains are the heroes of their own stories." I take it to mean that even the most debased villain generally considers themselves to be in the right even if their reasoning is warped.

As a case in point, I'm working on a mystery outline right now, with a major villain that uses his factory as an elaborate front for bootlegging and gunrunning. He is convinced that, by keeping his workers employed and bringing hard cash into the community, he is saving his city from the ravages of economic depression and open street crime. In other words, to himself, he is a hero.
 

Midnight Star

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I love thinking like the bad guys. Getting inside their heads is my favorite part about writing them. I love to piece together their motives and personalities.

I always know they're ready when they turn golden brown start to scare me. Book and movie-wise it takes a lot to scare me, so if I get scared, it means that I'll continue reading. And that at least means I won't get bored with my story. :D