Is the Bible based on fact or fiction?

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tommy

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First and most of all, the Bible is the greatest book ever written.
I am no different from anyone else. Since the beginning of time mankind has always asked- Who is God? How do I satisfy God? Will I live forever?
Millions upon millions of people base their belief, religion, tradition, existence, and even their own life’s according to their Bibles, but are the writings of ancient Holy Scripture based on fact, myths, hard core evidence, and the real truth.
As I continued to read, it soon became very evident to me that the Bible was nothing but mere cliff notes of a much larger story. Take for example, the Memoirs of our Presidents who either served four or eight year terms. These books contained more information on these Presidents’ terms than the entire Bible contained on the combined total number of years of all prophets, saints, and even the Messiah. I knew more about the lives of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Ronald Reagan than I did Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus Christ.
Who really wrote the Bible? How many Bibles are there? And which is the true Bible?
Before I go on further it is very important that I stop here and tell you what I have learned:
· History is not always the real truth
· History is written by the victor
· History is sometimes based on the sayings or writings of people of prominence
· History is sometimes written by others
· History is sometimes based on hearsay
History May Not Be the Real Truth
The first most important fact that I must point out is that history is always written by the victor. So, history would have been written to his or their own ideas, thoughts, and ideologies. Could you imagine how history would read today if Hitler’s army would have won the war? What would we be reading or thinking as history today? What would you think the history of yester year would be like if Hitler’s army would have won the war? Also, what were the thoughts of the Japanese as to World War II? What do they have to say as to their side of the story?
The next fact you must understand is that history was also written according to the sayings and writings of others especially, those of the affluent or those of prominent stature. Here’s a prime example of what I am saying. Take for instance the story of the Famous Midnight Ride of Paul Revere written by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Paul Revere did not actually complete the famous ride shouting, “ the British are coming, the British are coming.” According to actual accounts of the ride there were three men who began the ride, Paul Revere, William Dawes, and Dr. Samuel Prescott. The three were captured at a British roadblock. Paul Revere was detained and remained detained as Dawes and Dr. Prescott escaped. Dawes escaped into the woods. As he fled through the dark forest, he fell off his horse and was unable to ride. Dr Prescott jumped his horse over a brick wall and continued to ride. Actually, Dr. Samuel Prescott continued and completed the ride to Concord proclaiming that the British were coming. The reason Paul Revere gets credit is because there was no feasible rhyme as to the name Dr. Samuel Prescott to complete Longfellow’s poem. People took this as the truth because the poem and story was written by someone of stature, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Thus Paul Revere became the real hero and not Dr. Samuel Prescott.
A most puzzling fact also is that scholars and experts of today as well as back then could not agree on interpretations of scriptures and their actual dates and authorship. Many unknown scribes who wrote scriptures often used the names of other more famous people to give validity and substance to their writings misleading many people to believe that prophets, leaders, and saints had really written them when in fact they had not. Some were even written after the death of these prominent people. Also, many times I found that scriptures had been written from hearsay- long after the event or demise of a person.
That’s my opinion, What’s yours?
 

kaitiepaige17

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I'm not a Christian, nor do I agree with organized religion. I personally think it divides people, not unifies them. That being said, I see all Bibles as written guidelines on how to live life "morally." I agree with some stuff in the Christian bible (don't kill people, be nice to your neighbors, ec. ec.) But I don't take the stories (like Jonah and the whale) literally. I think they teach good lessons, but that's it.

Strangely, I used to be a Christian. That was until I realized I only practiced because I was afraid of burning in Hell for not worshiping God. When I finally accepted the fact that my heart wasn't in it, I began living much happier.
 

Deleted member 42

That’s my opinion, What’s yours?[/SIZE][/FONT]

In my opinion, you're a drive-by spammer who's here to exploit the community.

You post these interminable hard to read and less than grammatical screeds, and then don't engage.

Go read the Newbies Guide.

If you're here to participate in the community that's great, but you don't seem to engage with the community.
 

Gravity

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I came from a former lifestyle of hardcore athiesm. Through a set of circumstances I'm sure no one but me cares about, thirty-seven years ago I became a born-again, unapologetic Christian. In that time, through hellish circumstances and good ones, God, and his word, have proven to be faithful, reliable, and one hundred per cent trustworthy.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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In my opinion, you're a drive-by spammer who's here to exploit the community.

You post these interminable hard to read and less than grammatical screeds, and then don't engage.

Go read the Newbies Guide.

If you're here to participate in the community that's great, but you don't seem to engage with the community.

He does seem to hit and run, doesn't he?

I'm not sure he really wants to hear opinions... more like, keep the thread going so people visit my website.

:(
 
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You're asking in the Christian forum if people believe the Bible is the word of God?
 

stephenf

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It is hard to respond to your post, because it is a ramble of ideas, however I will give it a go.

Is the bible the greatest book ever written? NO .Most people in the world are not christened and most people, since the beginning of time, have not been christen. Christianity is a backward looking and outdated state of mind, which in time, will die out. This state of mind has been cultivated and manipulated by a large number of people over a very long time.
Personal, I do not believe in the absolute truth. But I do believe all religions are a fantasy.
 

Bartholomew

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I found his website. He's selling some kind of self-help book.

I think someone should remove the URL in his profile until he's got a few dozen more posts, some of which are replies.
 

ishtar'sgate

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It is pointless to try and explain something faith-based to someone without faith. I'm not talking faith in ourselves or our leaders or anything man-focused. Those who wholly believe in and follow God believe what the Bible tells them about the Bible - that it is an inspired text, that men wrote it under the influence and direction of the Holy Spirit, that it can seem foolish to those who are not believers and is not understood intellectually but rather spiritually.

I wholeheartedly agree with Gravity. God has seen me through some pretty horrific times and the Bible has always been a comfort and a reilable guide for my life. I wouldn't trade the Christian life for anything. I have a Friend who is always right there with me no matter what.

Is the Bible the greatest book ever written? Before I was born again I wouldn't have thought so. Now I do.
 

CACTUSWENDY

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This is why I did not respond to his posts.....he is a spammer.
 

MacAllister

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Yeah. I'd previously written to Tommy warning him that this is a community, not a virtual stage provided for his own brand of performance art. He'll be leaving us, now.
 

Gravity

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Yeah. I'd previously written to Tommy warning him that this is a community, not a virtual stage provided for his own brand of performance art. He'll be leaving us, now.

"Tommy, can you hear me? Can you feel me near you? Tommy....Tommy..." Sorry, had a Who moment there. :D
 

shadowwalker

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I'm a believer in God (though views of God may differ) and I believe the Bible was inspired by spirituality - and influenced by the society during which the various parts were written. As to whether it is "fact" - well, considering the number of translations it's gone through I can't accept that. A guide through use of parables and anecdotes, certainly. Follow it word for word - no.

So fact - not entirely. Fiction - not completely.
 

JustDave

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I'm a believer in God (though views of God may differ) and I believe the Bible was inspired by spirituality - and influenced by the society during which the various parts were written. As to whether it is "fact" - well, considering the number of translations it's gone through I can't accept that. A guide through use of parables and anecdotes, certainly. Follow it word for word - no.

So fact - not entirely. Fiction - not completely.

Interesting. Who gets to decide which parts are fact? You? What parts, in your opinion, are fictional? Noah and the flood? Jesus made reference to Noah. But then, do you decide Jesus is fiction? Or maybe lying or mistaken?

Think through the consequences of such flip remarks and their ramifications. All the major bible events that are currently questioned were referenced by Jesus, including creation.

Do you know how many ancient copies of ancient scripture there are? Did you know they are in the thousands, from divergent eras and found in wide locales? Don't be lazy. Do a little research and you might be amazed. These different ancient texts differ less than 1% of the time and that only in some minor issues (spellings, etc.).

One must ask, if there is a God and He is powerful enough to create the universe, can He not hold His scripture together, assuming there is such a powerful God? Or is He powerless at this particular point? Did He not say in scripture that not one jot or tiddle of His word would pass away?

Consequences. Ramifications. Think it through and don't be passive about any conclusions. Research and question everything. I too am a skeptic in life, but got off my backside and did the work and reasoned it out to my comfort level. NEVER the ostrich. Not saying you are. These are my conclusions and thoughts and what drives me.

Dave
 

Deleted member 42

Do you know how many ancient copies of ancient scripture there are? Did you know they are in the thousands, from divergent eras and found in wide locales? Don't be lazy. Do a little research and you might be amazed. These different ancient texts differ less than 1% of the time and that only in some minor issues (spellings, etc.).

So I take it, from your abjuration to do research that you yourself read Koine and Hebrew, at least, and are working from manuscript?

Otherwise, you're really not in a good position to chastise anyone, are you.

And the 1%? Not true. Really not true. Not even true for the two best manuscripts we have--both of which are now available in high quality images, for free.
 

JustDave

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So I take it, from your abjuration to do research that you yourself read Koine and Hebrew, at least, and are working from manuscript?

Otherwise, you're really not in a good position to chastise anyone, are you.

And the 1%? Not true. Really not true. Not even true for the two best manuscripts we have--both of which are now available in high quality images, for free.

Wow. Who's chastising? Although I do read a little ancient Greek (college, doncha know, least till I ran out of money to feed the kiddies) Hebrew is a toughie for me. Must one really reinvent the wheel to make a decision on a new car?

As to your other point. I don't know what your sources are. I could offer you a couple that are from a number of renown experts (not me, believe me). But if you have found a gross contradiction I think I can dig up at least one source offering a sizable reward for that error, if you have found one.

But that misses the point a bit. Who decides what parts are in error and which parts are those?
 

Deleted member 42

Wow. Who's chastising?

You right here.
Interesting. Who gets to decide which parts are fact? You? What parts, in your opinion, are fictional? Noah and the flood? Jesus made reference to Noah. But then, do you decide Jesus is fiction? Or maybe lying or mistaken?

Think through the consequences of such flip remarks and their ramifications. All the major bible events that are currently questioned were referenced by Jesus, including creation.


Although I do read a little ancient Greek (college, doncha know, least till I ran out of money to feed the kiddies) Hebrew is a toughie for me. Must one really reinvent the wheel to make a decision on a new car?

The average modern Jewish adolescent manages enough biblical Hebrew. Modern undergrads take a year and are quite competent.

As to your other point. I don't know what your sources are. I could offer you a couple that are from a number of renown experts (not me, believe me). But if you have found a gross contradiction I think I can dig up at least one source offering a sizable reward for that error, if you have found one.

I helped digitize the first samples of http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/, and worked on the prototype of Vaticanus.

I'm a textual scholar; I have no agenda, one way or the other. There are many differences, ranging from orthography, to different verb forms, (plural, or singular) to pronouns, to entire omitted passages. Much of the NT is horribly corrupt. Much of it is incredibly complex.

Not to mention a number of places where there are alternate readings--some of which are less plausible than others.

You might want to revisit textual scholarship. We've been able to recover deletions from Sinaiticus. We know a lot more about the editorial practices than we ever have before.

But that misses the point a bit. Who decides what parts are in error and which parts are those?

Me. And other scholars--who have no religious mission. And you can go learn the languages and paleographic skills necessary to decide for yourself. That's pretty much the reason for the Reformation; don't cast that freedom aside.
 

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Okay, well I may not be the scholar you purport to be, but do you seriously mean I ought to be holding your annonymous name in greater esteem than the following?:

Dr. F. F. Bruce, the late Ryland’s Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the
University of Manchester, asserts of the New Testament: “There is no body of ancient
literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New

Testament.”
4 Professor Bruce further comments, “The evidence for our New Testament
writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical writers,
the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a
collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all
doubt.”


5
It is this wealth of material that has enabled scholars such as Westcott and Hort, Ezra
Abbott, Philip Schaff, A. T. Robertson, Norman Geisler and William Nix to place the restoration
of the original text at 99 percent plus.


6 Thus no other document of the ancient period
is as accurately preserved as the New Testament:
Hort’s estimate of “substantial variation” for the New Testament is one-tenth of 1 percent;


Abbott’s estimate is one-fourth of 1 percent; and even Hort’s figure including trivial variation is less than 2 percent. Sir Frederic Kenyon well summarizes the situation: The number of manuscripts of the New Testament... is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or another of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world. Scholars are satisfied that they possess substantially the true text of the principal Greek and Roman writers whose works have come down to us, of Sophocles, of Thucydides, of Cicero, of Virgil; yet our knowledge depends on a mere handful of manuscripts, whereas the manuscripts of the New
Testament are counted by hundreds and even thousands.


I'm just saying....
 

JustDave

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Sorry. Here are the references:

Notes:
1. Chauncey Sanders, An Introduction to Research in English Literary History (New York:
MacMillan, 1952), p. 160.
2. J. McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, rev. 1979, pp. 39-52; and Norman
Geisler, William Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible (Chicago: Moody Press, 1971),
pp. 238, 357-367.
3. McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, p. 42; Robert C. Newman, “Miracles and
the Historicity of the Easter Week Narratives,” in John Warwick Montgomery (ed.), Evidence
for Faith: Deciding the God Question (Dallas: Probe, 1991), pp. 281-84.
4. F. F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments (Old Tappan, NJ: RevelI, 1963), p. 78.
5. F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Downer’s Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press, 1971), p. 15.
6. J. McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, pp. 43-45; Clark Pinnock, Biblical
Revelation: The Foundation of Christian Theology (Chicago: Moody Press, 1971), pp.
238-39, 365-66.
7. Robert C. Newman, “Miracles and the Historicity of the Easter Week Narratives,” in John
Warwick Montgomery (ed.), Evidence for Faith: Deciding the God Question (Dallas:
Probe, 1991), p. 284.
8. See John Warwick Montgomery, Faith Founded on Fact (New York: Nelson, 1978); F. F
Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Downer’s Grove, IL:
InterVarsity); John Warwick Montgomery, History and Christianity (Downer’s Grove, IL:
InterVarsity); Norman Geisler, Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1976),
pp. 322-327.
 

poetinahat

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She's not exactly anonymous; she makes no secret of her identity. Her name is in her sig line. But nice try.

Now that we have the ad hominem out of the way, let's get ready to rumbllllllllle...

Excuse me while I go pop some corn; this ought to be fun.
 

Deleted member 42

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I'm just saying....

None of them have any expertise in any other ancient language.

None of them are from peer reviewed publications.

So, no, not really interested.

By the way--"purported scholar?"

You really don't want to go there do you? Seriously?

I have a Ph.D from UCLA in English. My specialty is in medieval English and Celtic languages. I've had training in Hebrew, Koine, various dead Germanic languages, Sanskrit, Hittite, and rudimentary Sumerian. I have extensive training in paleography and codicology. I am, quite honestly, one of the better authorities on ms. digitization. I was the primary support person for UCLA's Digital Cuneiform Project. I first learned Koine at 14--from my seminary trained father. I later studied Hebrew at UCLA and yeshiva for four years.

My paleography classes were largely taught by Michele Brown, and Bengt Lofstedt.

Here's the kind of source you ought to be looking for; it's from a scholar who has a substantial history of peer reviewed publications.
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why Ehrman is a devout Christian, a seminary trained theologian, and a fine scholar.
 
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