Science is not so black and white. It's not about what's 100% true, and 100% false. If you want to be really pedantic about it, we can't say anything with 100% certainty. We could all be living in the Matrix, for all we know.
-
This forum is specifically for the discussion of factual science and technology. When the topic moves to speculation, then it needs to also move to the parent forum, Science Fiction and Fantasy (SF/F).
If the topic of a discussion becomes political, even remotely so, then it immediately does no longer belong here. Failure to comply with these simple and reasonable guidelines will result in one of the following.
- the thread will be moved to the appropriate forum
- the thread will be closed to further posts.
- the thread will remain, but the posts that deviate from the topic will be relocated or deleted.
Thank you for understanding.
Life?
- Thread starter JLCwrites
- Start date
It's not a "retreat" it is the basis of what we consider real, or not. It is just one of an infinite number of example of things that cannot be disproven and yet are disbelieved by virtually everyone. I'm afraid that understanding how, and why disproving something is not only unnecessary but impossible is one of the very basics of understanding how, and why science works.The 'invisible pink unicorn' retreat?
I read all this cannot [and cannot), without reading much substance. Arguments from ignorance fail, always.
I'm afraid that while your words stand, your arguments leave a lot to be desired. Rather like a one-legged table. Since you seem so fond of requiring proof of negatives, i think it only fair that you proof that we do not know and can not know which you claim we don't.
Maybe it'll help in understanding the significance of the teapot example. It's not totally arbitrary of course, it is kind of traditional for debates like these, since Russel first used it in 1952.
This is funny. Seriously, i'm laughing. Because this, again is the great chain of being, or possibly special creation or humans as the only beings with souls. According to the ToE, humans are no more or less evolved than, for example, an armadillo. Or any other currently living creature. It is so funny because this argument gets used by people defending the very ideologies that posit humans as special, who then claim that the ToE would posit such a thing. Especially funny since it gets used so often nowadays, while much of the initial resistance Darwin faced was exactly because the ToE states that humans are not special. Aka "My Granpa was no damn ape".
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,940
- Reaction score
- 261
Originally Posted by small axe
The 'invisible pink unicorn' retreat?
It's not an issue of you having to 'disprove' something
It's an issue of the 'bad' science of claiming facts you cannot scientifically support. Period.
And you cannot support any claims which try to rule out possible forms unknown alien life will take, or how it will have originated or evolved. Period.
Science cannot support your argument (the reader can see your previous comments, above and throughout) based on your mere faith assumptions.
Next, you seem to accept that things that cannot be 'disproven' should still be 'disbelieved' ???
To that I say: You have shifted the issue from 'proof' to 'BELIEF' ... and you have done so in a SCIENCE FACT thread.
And that's not science.
small axe wrote:
Someone sincerely points out that person "B" is making claims that "Science" cannot support (about ALIEN LIFE, which obviously "B" can know nothing about to make intelligent claims about) ... claims that anyone using Science's evidence and fact and logic should realize you cannot make (and intelligently realize you should not make) ...
huh?
No need to call the other guy's things 'a one legged table' etc ... unless you hope to win a debate based on poetic images ('O argument of straw / Golden bales be a fortress wall / Prettiest you ever saw / O argument of man of straw')
I don't 'require' proof of negatives ... YOU seem to need to prove a negative to be able to support your claims.
Since you cannot prove a negative,
you cannot support your claims,
and THAT is why your claims should probably not be intelligently made here.
When I have to point that out to anyone ... We are shown the invalidity of the other's claims to be representing valid Science. imo.
Ah ... your 'traditions' ...
So you're merely parroting something you've heard since 1952? I dare say it was a silly position to take then, and probably worse to parrot now.
I hoped we could think the new thoughts and think them for ourselves ... not merely parrot debates from 1952.
Seriously, sir, and respectfully: I'm not arguing any extreme position here. I'm simply pointing out to the reader that you cannot (because NO ONE can) claim to know the forms or origins of "unknown, undiscovered ALIEN LIFE" -- and pretend to be representing a 'Scientific' position.
SCIENCE would demand you seek out, investigate, observe, experiment, etc etc data ... not simply rule out or debate against unknown (but not unknowable) possibilities.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2005
- Messages
- 28,750
- Reaction score
- 2,934
- Location
- right here
- Website
- www.veinglory.com
Sure. I just say something like: "You guys who delight in dissing one another's opinion, stop it!" They know who they are.
Then, if they don't stop, I threaten to close the thread.
Then, if they still don't stop, I do, actually, close the thread and it dribbles off into the back pages of oblivion.
Also, it helps if those who would like the thread to stay visible and on topic, post something. You know... something actually on topic.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So, you guys . . .
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,940
- Reaction score
- 261
It turned into the taste of Tribbles, like, about the third comment though.
If the topic was, Could alien signals reflect a civilization that had long since changed ... We seemed to agree they could.
A related interesting question might be ... Could the UNIVERSE itself have evolved and changed, in ways unlike OUR area of Universe, since its early history (which we can see) or in areas we can NEVER see (since light and information can never reach us) ???
Imagine (if you care) an area of our Universe where an alien civilization is NOT limited by how space-time works in our own local area. Where their "laws of nature" or "physics" evolved away from ours from the Universe's earliest moments.
Could they exist in ours to come here?
Might there be a sort of Universe where their laws of physics are more easily "translated" (or violated) than ours?
Where "inflation energy" might still work as a basic principle, and power their starships (or Universe-ships) to come here?
We wouldn't suspect how strange they could be ... until they arrived.
"Just a drop of water in an ebdless sea"
Cool topic,
As a radio engineer I agree that if we could encounter those conventional (non-warp, non-subspace) radio signals they would be very out dated. In fact Alpha-Centauri has been receiving our re-runs of 'Laverne and Shirley' for quite some time. (Since we haven't begun receiving re-runs of 'Zenoplod and Xandorg' yet we might well assume they haven't developed a sophisticated society yet, or they have really strict copyright laws .)
If I send a radio signal from dwarf-planet Pluto to earth (at 4.02 light hours -Perihelion) to tell you that I choked on a Plutonian pear. By the time you called me back 8+ hours later I would not be alive to answer.
Ok back to topic, sorry I tend to drift.
If you could receive the alien signals, then we our faced with deciphering the modulation out of the clutter and noise. Radio waves are dissipated from a single point into a 3D universe.
"In free space, all electromagnetic waves (radio, light, X-rays, etc) obey the inverse-square law which states that the power density of an electromagnetic wave is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance from the source.
The power density per surface unit is proportional to the product of the electric and magnetic field strengths. Thus, doubling the propagation path distance from the transmitter reduces each of their received field strengths over a free-space path by one-half."
Thus signal strength decreases very quickly. I would suggest it would be like finding a molecule of a drop of red dye in the ocean 1,000,000 years after after it had dissipated.
Thus I can't believe conventional radio signals would have much of a chance against a background of electromagnetic radiation, but hope springs eternal that the aliens on the other end have overcome those obstacles.
On other thread topics...
If Tribbles are tasty could we solve world hunger with them? Or have they advanced beyond tasting like chicken? Maybe we should look into making sure humans aren't tasty in case we might be seen as the chickens?
Project idea for NASA:
What if we could send advanced detection equipment through a wormhole to encounter the light from earth in the past, and look at it?
Cool topic,
As a radio engineer I agree that if we could encounter those conventional (non-warp, non-subspace) radio signals they would be very out dated. In fact Alpha-Centauri has been receiving our re-runs of 'Laverne and Shirley' for quite some time. (Since we haven't begun receiving re-runs of 'Zenoplod and Xandorg' yet we might well assume they haven't developed a sophisticated society yet, or they have really strict copyright laws .)
If I send a radio signal from dwarf-planet Pluto to earth (at 4.02 light hours -Perihelion) to tell you that I choked on a Plutonian pear. By the time you called me back 8+ hours later I would not be alive to answer.
Ok back to topic, sorry I tend to drift.
If you could receive the alien signals, then we our faced with deciphering the modulation out of the clutter and noise. Radio waves are dissipated from a single point into a 3D universe.
"In free space, all electromagnetic waves (radio, light, X-rays, etc) obey the inverse-square law which states that the power density of an electromagnetic wave is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance from the source.
The power density per surface unit is proportional to the product of the electric and magnetic field strengths. Thus, doubling the propagation path distance from the transmitter reduces each of their received field strengths over a free-space path by one-half."
Thus signal strength decreases very quickly. I would suggest it would be like finding a molecule of a drop of red dye in the ocean 1,000,000 years after after it had dissipated.
Thus I can't believe conventional radio signals would have much of a chance against a background of electromagnetic radiation, but hope springs eternal that the aliens on the other end have overcome those obstacles.
On other thread topics...
If Tribbles are tasty could we solve world hunger with them? Or have they advanced beyond tasting like chicken? Maybe we should look into making sure humans aren't tasty in case we might be seen as the chickens?
Project idea for NASA:
What if we could send advanced detection equipment through a wormhole to encounter the light from earth in the past, and look at it?
