Word Count frustration

SheilaSeeGee said:

I know, we've discussed word count ad nauseum, but I feel the need to rant because I'm depressed and frustrated.

I recently had a full rejected and the first reason given was its length. It's 92,000 words, agent said it needs to be 50K. It's upper middle grade speculative, with a bit of world building. I knew 92K was going to be iffy.

The agent compared it in tone to Nancy Farmer's House of The Scorpion. Thanks to Judy, I now know how to get word counts for any book and here's what I've found (all of these are categorized as MG, MG+, or UG on renlearn, and are the sort of book I was aiming at writing):

House of the Scorpion - 100,214
The Sea of Trolls - 108,260
Hunger Games - 99,750
The Maze Runner - 101,182
The Uglies - 87,274
Unwind - 95,297
Incarceron - 96,201
The Lost Conspiracy - 130K
Jonathan Stroud's books top 120K

I could go on, because I like procrastinating when I'm frustrated.

So why am I being told my story needs to be cut to 50K? That means cutting it in half. I could cut off a finger, or maybe a couple of toes, but slicing it in half will kill my little franken-story.

But mostly, why do agents act like long word counts are the exception in upper middle-grade speculative/dystopian/fantasy when it happens so often?

Thanks for listening. Whew, I feel a little better now. Time to operate.

Click to expand...

First the diplomatic answer - I don't think any of those books are debut novels - in fact, most of them are novels from established authors with a following (in some cases established in other genres, but established nonetheless).

The rules are different for debut novels.

Second, most aren't really MG. The ones I recognize are all YA books. Those lengths are only slightly too long for the norms in YA. They are way, way too long for the norms in MG. In fact, all of the ones I recognize are YA books.

And here's the harder,less diplomatic answer - and forgive me for adding it, but I believe in keeping things realistic. Of those that I recognize, they are fantastic, perfectly paced, exceptional books. So...the hard answer is that your book might not be as well-paced and working at 90,000. I don;'t think I could cut a word from Hunger Games, Incarceron, The Uglies, or Unwind. Not one word.

So...the agent may be partially reacting to the fact that this would be a debut. But they may also be reacting to this book not working at that length.

Look for debut, true MG book lengths for comparison - not YA books from established authors.

But then really get some strong betas and consider what words are not absolutely 100% necessary.

OR, write another book and let this one be your 2nd, 3rd or 4th...etc.

~suki

Sheila:

I agree with most of what Suki said. However, I dion't think that you should slice your story in half or stop querying based on one agent's opinion. You have a great writing voice and you've gotten quite a bit of attention in contests, so I think you have a good chance of hooking an agent. If every agent starts telling you the book is too long, then yes, it may be time to do some major editing or set it aside for now (the problem is, I suspect, that all your novels tend to run on the long side, since you write stories involving a great deal of world-building).

I do agree that you should have some betas read the novel, though (if you haven't already). I wish I could do it, but I simply don't have the time right now.

Hang in there. Don't get too frustrated.

Ash

It is possible to do all the world building etc in 50K. But. I think if the agent had your full, if I'm totally honest, it wasn't that there were too many words, but that the book just felt long unfortunately.

Mine is an upper MG and when it was sent out originally it was 97K. I had to cut it down to 87K before I was offered representation, but that's still almost twice as long as the average.

I think you shouldn't worry too much about actual word count and more about how the book feels. If the agent requested and read the full knowing that the book was longer than average, obviously it wasn't an absolute no-no. So with that in mind, and only if you want to, you might want to see if there are moments of world building that come across as info dumps. You might also want to shorten chapters (it's pretty easy, just put in a chapter break halfway through a chapter, it really worked well for me). Just see if there are any moments when you think an 8 - 12 yearold might get bored. Don't aim for 50K, aim to have a page turner.

Anyway, those are my two cents.

I'll have to agree with Suki's point about the listed books being YA and also written by established authors. A debut will definitely be treated differently. But like Smish said, don't take one agent's word as gospel. That's just one opinion. If you aren't already doing so, query with the word count noted. Some agents may let you know off the bat if it's too long. In the end, if you do decide to cut, it's not nearly as traumatic as it seems now. I don't know the book, but 50k is still a good bit of room to work with. Keep your head up. You'll figure it out.

One of the things that has always surprised me about AW is the amount of discussion there is about word counts. I've been editing all sorts of children's books for ten years now and I've never heard an editor say that they were going to straight-up reject a novel for being too long. (Too short: yes, sometimes.) At worst it's going to be 'come back when you've trimmed 20K words off it.'

Agents, I can't speak for: who knows why they do anything.

One thing to consider: maybe you don't need to do any worldbuilding?

I feel your pain. My original was 92k - I worked with an agent on revisions, put in lots of new stuff but neglected to take anything out, and ended up with a mammoth 120k, which of course was rejected. I must have been crazy, but I've come a long way since then and don't think I was ready. I got it down to 100k, sent the partial off somewhere else and was told that it costs too much (and is too risky) to publish long debut books, so if I was willing to cut it down to 70k then they'd read my full. I cut it to 85k and they passed.

I've since figured out where I was going wrong and it's now a more reasonable 69k and will be ready to go out soon. My problem wasn't just the long word count, it was the pace... but the word count was an immediate red flag for pacing problems.

I'm now of the opinion that shorter is always better, but until this draft every single time I tried to revise the MS, I agonised over every cut. I couldn't think of anywhere to start cutting as it all seemed essential to the plot/backstory/possible series potential. Now, I've got a different eye when I read. I've cut lots of my favourite lines because they didn't drive the plot. Now I evaluate every scene to make sure they're moving the plot forward or I think about whether there are shorter ways to bring in 'reveals' more quickly, ways to compress plot elements etc. For example, I had characters returning to quirky locations, but my reader pointed out that the repeat locations meant it felt like I was stepping backwards rather than moving forwards.

Another example was that I had things happening that made perfect sense character-wise, but which really slowed the pace e.g. the MC needed to go save the world but first he needed to check on his deathly ill friend - having him check on the friend meant the sense of urgency and pace was lost (i.e. so if they're going somewhere important, don't sidetrack them). I had lots of things like that making my pace sluggish, and sometimes a second pair of eyes is a massive help to you. Because a lot of my pacing issues made sense to the character or plot, or were funny asides, I thought they needed to be in the MS, but now I know better and I'll take what I've learned on to my next project.

So basically, after all my waffle (you can tell I'm an overwriter, can't you? Lol) the chances are the pace slackens a little. There's obviously a lot to like in terms of voice, plot etc to get the full requested, so that's great news. Now you just need to be mercenary with the delete button, like I did (I became a cutting maniac in the end but it's much better for it).

Good luck!

I know the word count woes all too well. My novel isn't YA, let alone MG, and was twice the highest recommended word count (first version was 230K!).

As my novel is travel fiction, I asked myself if my characters really needed to go to all of these places. No, they didn't. So I cut out the entire first half of the trip, and moved the important scenes to later. I'm gambling that more readers will want a faster-paced book in which all the good stuff still happens than will want a sweeping narrative with more places. I'm still putting the finishing touches on the rewrite, so I don't have a happy ending *yet*

Best of luck. I hope this helps.

Of the books on your list, the only one I've read so far is Sea of Trolls, and, to be honest, I quit after about 100 pages. Way too slowly paced for my taste, with WAY too much telling. I know, other people think she's a great writer, so...like I said. Not to my taste, that's all.

I haven't read enough of your book to know if the agent is nuts to say Cut it in half. But in general, I'm a believer in Less is More for MG readers. If I were Paolini's editor, I'd have chopped Eragon and Eldest down by a third to half. The Harry Potter books, too.

The reason is that when you get up to that thickness, you start losing kids. They have to be really, really good readers or have really boring lives in order to finish such long books. I mean, my boys both read a lot, but they also do other things. So I notice that when the new Ranger's Apprentice book comes out, they both whip right through it, but neither of them has finished the Potter series, or Inkheart, or some of the other longer books. Just the size is intimidating.

So...think about Toothpaste's advice. If there are changes you can make, places you can cut, to speed up the pacing and shorten the length without sacrificing the story you want to tell, then I would say, Do it. It will just be that much easier to shop a leaner, meaner book.

(Now, anybody have advice for the opposite problem? I just can't seem to get over the 30K hump!)

JudScotKev said:

(Now, anybody have advice for the opposite problem? I just can't seem to get over the 30K hump!)

Click to expand...

Judy, why do you feel it's necessary to write more than 30k for MG? Are you worried some agents may reject the book because it's too short? Or does the book come across as thin and incomplete? I know we toss word counts around all the time, but I think a book simply is what it is. If the story is complete and fulfilling at 28k, then that's the word count for that particular book. Maybe your next project will demand an excess of 30k, but no two books are alike. Some stories should be told in quick fashion. Just my opinion.

My MG is under 30K, and I feel like if I add more to it, it would be simply for the sake of the "ideal word count". So I'm in the same boat Jud.

I have had some agent feedback in general, not specific to this book, that over 30K is easier to sell these days. But I do feel that the story is solid as is, so I'm querying with it. We'll see what happens!

I also think word count is one area that follows market trends. Books published before Harry Potter tended to be much shorter:
Ramona The Pest: 27K
The Black Cauldron: 47K
Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH: 57K
Sarah, Plain and Tall: 8K
The Whipping Boy: 13K

(imagine these days winning the Newbery with a book under 20K! Not gonna happen.)

It's only recently that you see MG books inching up near the 100K mark.

But I predict that the economy, mixed with the uncertainty of the future of books and bookstores in the age of Kindle and the iPad, will push word counts back down again, at least for unknown authors. It just makes more sense financially for publishers to hedge their bets when they have so little control over so many other pieces of the puzzle. A shorter book is cheaper to publish and easier to sell.

Had to join this discussion. I think the reason word counts come up so much on AW (yes, yes, I know I'm stating the obvious here) is that a word count represents edits. For me, word count is a concrete way to see how much I've changed. I don't know about you, but in almost all cases when I got back to my work I end up cutting. Not that cutting words is always the goal. But it is easy to concentrate on word counts, which are easy to understand, vs. the idea of pacing, which is a bit trickier.

My advice? Try being a beta for someone else. It is easier for me to see all the weird pacing and extra words when I don't know where the story is going. After I beta, I can more clearly see it in my WIP.

I'd see if there is too much lull in the action in your story, Sheila. The first draft of my Young Adult novel is as long as "New Moon" by Stephenie Meyer, i.e., too long for a debut novel in my opinion . I know I have pacing issues and an entire separate storyline at the start of the book that I'm in the midst of abolishing. I'd make sure that your writing is as tight as it possibly can be if I were you. If you're certain you've done that, then just keep querying until someone bites. It'll happen if you keep trying

Firstly, most, if not all of those books are YA. not MG. word count for MG is significantly lower, even 50k is high for an MG tbh.

Hey Sheila, that's some excellent advice above; can't think of too much to add to it, but two little points: first, have you queried those books' agents? Obviously they don't have a problem with high word counts; and second, I'm copying AW member Adrian's signature line here because I love it:

ANY SCENE, THUS, WHICH DOES NOT BOTH ADVANCE THE PLOT, AND STANDALONE (THAT IS, DRAMATICALLY, BY ITSELF, ON ITS OWN MERITS) IS EITHER SUPERFLUOUS, OR INCORRECTLY WRITTEN. David Mamet

There are always exceptions and I won't name them here, but you are just stacking the odds against yourself if you try to get around this. For example, the Rowan of Rin books by Emily Rodda are a fantasy series, and each book is relatively short. The MC is also young, and I can't see a 12-year-old, while they might like the books, getting passionately attached to them. The content is more for younger children. Nobody dies (I think), and while bits are a little scary, younger MG readers can handle it. It's a great first fantasy series.

The Gregor the Overlander series are also fantasy, but each book is longer and the content is for slightly older kids. People die, including an evil kid, and some younger children might be put off by some aspects of it. Again, an excellent series.

That's one question I had...

If the books you have in mind as inspiration/role models are all YA, are you sure you don't have a YA novel? If it's possible, that gives you room to do two kinds of revisions--tighten things up as much as possible, while upping the tension and intensity.

From what I've read of the book, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work to target an older audience.

Melia said something very interesting that has made me look at this whole word count thing in the context of my own work.

Melia said:

I always look at word count issues from a practical business standpoint. If you are trying to get an agent interested in a manuscript, your attempts will be much easier if your wordcount matches your story-For a lower MG book, storyline etc., of more interest to 8-10 year olds, a lower wordcount is fine. If you are directing your story to 10-12 year olds, a higher word count would work better.

Click to expand...

Sweetness is only 28k, but the MC is 10 and the target audience obviously on the younger side. While there are a couple of subplots, I don't give them heavy detail. The main story about Robyn, the birds and the mean girl and her cat drives most of the narrative. This isn't something older kids would be interested in reading, but younger kids might get lost in a more complex book.

The work I just finished is 35k, but it wasn't a target word count or anything. The work, by its sheer nature, demanded a longer book. My MC is 12, and the issues she faces are more weighty than birds and mean cats. She's dealing with the murder of her father, her father's best friend putting the moves on her mom, her own best friend acting all nutty over boys, her struggles with her English papers and the chance she may flunk the class. By writing for a slightly older audience, I'm able to give the subplots more attention, which itself made for a higher word count. I think the audience and subject matter play a huge role in how long or short a book should be.