Modeling? Escapism vs. Realism

Ardent Kat · Mar 31, 2010

A little while back, I cringed through a thread about matriarchies in the sci-fi/fantasy forum. I say "cringed" because the thread was intended for brainstorming how to develop a fictional female-dominant society, but the thread was constantly derailed by mansplainers who kept advocating for eternal patriarchy under the guise of "realism." Men have always been oppressive and in charge, thus they will continue to always be oppressive and in charge, seemed to be the consensus of the pro-patriarchy camp. Those of us interested in exploring gender egalitarian or matriarchal cultures had our ideas slammed for lack of "plausibility."

...Which brings me to the idea of "plausibility" in portraying a character who's gay/queer, but whose queerness is not a source of pain or conflict. Some slam such ideas as escapism, infantalizing, or overly idealistic. Others say they're not interested in reading LGBT fiction because it's always so damn depressing/moralizing.

I saw this comment and response in another thread (names removed because I'm not trying to single anyone out, just illustrated the idea):

I absolutely detest YA stories where the gay character is harassed, suffers terribly, makes angsty and boring ass speeches about tolerance, etc. Add to these tired themes,they are only in the story as a a sidekick to the straight folk. Why can't a gay character be like;This is me and if you don't like it,kiss my ass?

My guess would be, because an attitude like this in the real world frequently results in extreme harassment and/or death, particularly among the rather cruel world of high school. Harrassment of QLTBAG folks is sadly still the norm, not the exception in most parts of the world.

I see both sides of the argument. On one hand, I don't think a conflict-free sunshine-and-rainbows queertopia would make good fiction or realistic characters, but can we write a few stories that stretch realism for a minute for the sake of letting gay characters let it all hang out without having to cover, hide, or suffer persecution for it? Can we allow conflict to come from sources unrelated to the character's queerness?

It's exploring these ideas that attracts me to fantasy/sci-fi/speculative fiction. Unfettered by the rules and history of our own world, we can create a fictional culture where bisexuality is the norm, or transgender leanings are perceived as sacred. I like writing nonhuman characters in nonhuman cultures that explore these culture-bending themes because no one can say, "It couldn't happen!" when the society in question is centaurs or goblins instead of humans.

Moreover, there's plenty of absurdity and lack of realism allowed in the straight/white/male-centric fiction. Does anyone think for a moment that James Bond is anything close to a real human being? So why is he allowed to be absurd and escapist, while queers and women are held to strict standards of realism?

I think about modeling, too. By that, I don't mean moralizing or modeling good behavior, but simply modeling what might be possible in the future, even if it's not possible now. For instance, the idea of a black president was at one time incredibly unlikely given the current and historical social climate, but that didn't stop movie-makers and fiction writers from putting black presidents in their fiction. Years later, it's a possibility and reality. Similarly, even if an unashamed, uncloseted, unpersecuted queer character isn't likely in today's social climate, can't we write such characters into our fiction to help legitimize the idea for the future?

Is fiction in which queerness isn't marginalized liberating or overly idealistic? Where and when do you believe realism vs. escapism has its place? Of course, this thread isn't looking for One Right Answer (so, please, let's keep it civil), but I'm interested in hearing individual opinions, even musing on both sides of the issue instead of "choosing a side."

Kitty Pryde · Mar 31, 2010

David Levithan's "Boy Meets Boy" is set in a "queertopia" of sorts. The MC came out as a little boy, his parents are totally cool with it, so are his friends, and he has a handful of wholesome grownup gay guys to be role models. He's happy and none of his problems have to do with persecution. In his whole world, there are only 4 described homophobic characters--two high school kids who attempt to beat up a gay guy, and his gay friend's religious parents. For the MC, his small town is a great place to be gay. It totally works. "Ash" by Malinda Lo is a good fantasy novel where homosexuality is no big deal.

I also think there's a happy medium to be reached between unrealistic utopia and depressingly terrible homophobia land. After all, plenty of real LGBT folks live an ok life, spending most of their time not being a victim or being hated on. I've been threatened and hated on before, and I have to be wary in some situations, but that's not the story of my life nor how I spend the vast majority of my time.

The gay kids at my high school (in the late 90s) were almost never hassled, and most of the straight students would be quick to tell someone off for gay-bashing type behavior. Were we all big hippies? Yes. Is it unrealistic? No! It's possible to be a gay high school student and not have a tragic life because of it.

Anyways, stories of dealing with persecution are good to have. But I agree that it's also good to have stories in which LGBT characters do more than get harassed. I don't think that has to be unrealistic, either.

Bookewyrme · Apr 1, 2010

Great thread Kat. I remember that Matriarchy thread too (I decided not to get into it, for the sake of my sanity) and it was one of the things that turned me off of the Scifi/Fantasy board.

Kitty Pryde said:
I also think there's a happy medium to be reached between unrealistic utopia and depressingly terrible homophobia land.

QFT. I mean, there's a place for each extreme, I suppose, particularly in writing. But it seems a shame to always ignore the middle-road for the extremes.

I also have an issue with anyone saying anything is "always" unrealistic. In Kat's YA quote examples, it might be unrealistic for there to be happy-fun utopia, because a lot of LGBT YA seems to be about the "real" world, just fictional characters. And if you write historical fiction, you are expected to be more-or-less realistic to the time period. But if you create your own internally consistent world (even if it's just a variation of "our" world), regardless of genre, then anyone who tells you something is "unrealistic" in that setting needs a swift kick in the pants. In your world, whatever you write is "realistic." It's your bloody world!

MumblingSage · Apr 1, 2010

The Scifi/Fantasy board does seem to, for whatever reason, be obsessed with 'plausibility' lately. I've never been enchanted with that idea, since too often people seem to figure 'realistic=darn depressing'. Which isn't always true (or I'm the only person on earth who has been mostly happy and satisfied with her life).

Unfettered by the rules and history of our own world, we can create a fictional culture where bisexuality is the norm, or transgender leanings are perceived as sacred.

The best part is that both those examples exist in our world, just not in Western culture.

Mara · Apr 1, 2010

I'm actually tired of "realism" being espoused in fantasy threads entirely, and am almost wondering if that's the problem more than "mansplaining" and the like. I definitely notice a certain trend of "realism" being associated with "unquestioned cultural bias," though.

Here are examples.

New Writer: I want to have a world where women are soldiers!
Some Guy: No, that's unrealistic! Women are weak and helpless!

New Writer: I want to have a world where gay people aren't discriminated against.
Some Guy: No, that's unrealistic! Everyone hates gay people!

New Writer: I want to have a character that uses two swords!
Some Guy: No, that's unrealistic! He should use a gun!

New Writer: I want to have a world where dragons are real!
Some Guy: No, that's unrealistic! Dragons don't exist!

New Writer: I want to have a world inspired by eastern culture instead of western.
Some Guy: No, that's stupid! Anime is stupid! Fantasy should be about white people who speak English.

All of these demonstrate some kind of incredible ignorance of the basic tenets of fantasy by "Some Guy," who mostly just seems to want to shoot down new writers' ideas no matter what. ("Some Guy" doesn't refer to any particular person, but some people have played the "Some Guy" role in particular arguments. And not everyone who argues realism is Some Guy; it's just when they keep doing it until they're blue in the face, and it's code for "I don't like your ideas and I hate your writing preferences," that it becomes a problem.)

Some Guy always seems particularly dedicated to shooting down anyone who threatens his view of "pure" fantasy, which always happens to be male-centric, heteronormative, cisnormative, Eurocentric, and usually devoid of actual "fantastic" elements.

And it starts to get really offensive where we have to use "it's fantasy" to defend things that actually exist in the real world, such as women in combat, QILTBAG people being treated with special respect, or most non-Eurocentric ideas. And even more frustrating when "it's fantasy" still isn't a good enough excuse.

SOLUTION:
We just go ahead and write our pro-QILTBAG books, our matriarchies, and our dragons that are actually magical. We get published and influence the genre and our readers.

And once we stop arguing with him, Some Guy will actually have time to work on his wonderful novel that will no doubt take the world by storm and show everyone how superior his knowledge of fantasy is. Or maybe not.

I don't think some of the arguments that take place in SF/F are hugely relevant to the publishing industry when it comes to fantasy. I'm still seeing matriarchies, pro-QILTBAG settings, and high fantasy in modern books. So I don't think we should worry too much about it.

friendlyhobo · Apr 1, 2010

If reading isn't escapism most of the time, I don't know what I've been doing all these years. Even in escapism the author still devises their own system of logic within the implausibility. So in any book where there are elements that don't appear in reality, ya know, CAUSE IT'S FICTION (I'm super glad I never read that matriarchy thread, btw, or the veins in my brain probably would have exploded, and there have been matriarchal cultures in reality, dagnabbit), good authors still abide by internal logic. MY POINT IS (wait I had one?) that I like to read books where being gay and/or angst caused by being isn't the focus of the plot, and whether or not that plausible in real life (TOTALLY IS), I don't care. As long as the author makes sense. Whether or not I made sense... I think this topic may be triggering some continual rants I make in life, and I may have forgotten to some point that makes this all, ya know, lucid.

Chasing the Horizon · Apr 1, 2010

Heh, considering I started the matriarchies thread, do I even need to post a response?

Of COURSE there's nothing wrong with creating a fantasy culture where there is no prejudice towards gays. I've done it, and I read a book a long time ago that did it (can't remember the title, much as I would like to).

I think the 'plausibility' arguments are just a fear reaction. People are afraid to imagine a world where their own prejudices don't exist. They feel very threatened by the idea, probably because deep down they know it IS possible. If they were really so sure it wasn't possible and that it wouldn't get published, why would they spend so much time debating it? I've been on AW long enough to know that the truly bad ideas get very few responses, and those they do receive tend to be vague and general. To be fair, I think the idea of matriarchies and warrior women is going to get blasted more than the idea of a 'queertopia', because a lot of men are genuinely afraid women will take over our own society (and with the way our education system is stacked towards a female learning style this is far from out of the question).

One thing I would find hard to believe in is a society where all prejudice of every type has been entirely removed. There are several societies on my fantasy world that are extremely progressive and oh-so-proud of how they've eliminated every bias and prejudice from their society. Of course, they can't get enough of pointing out how backwards and inferior the societies which remain prejudiced are. So they still get to exercise that basic human instinct to point out their own superiority, just in a slightly different way. It would be a hard task indeed to create an entire society where they've somehow removed that need for feeling superior to others.

friendlyhobo · Apr 1, 2010

Chasing the Horizon said:
To be fair, I think the idea of matriarchies and warrior women is going to get blasted more than the idea of a 'queertopia', because a lot of men are genuinely afraid women will take over our own society (and with the way our education system is stacked towards a female learning style this is far from out of the question).

Well, I think we should all get a turn. So...

lachlan · Apr 8, 2010

I am so glad I missed that thread!

Anyway, Yes, yeah, da -- a character who happens to be gay, rather than a story that's about being gay.

friendlyhobo · Apr 8, 2010

lachlan said:
Yes, yeah, da -- a character who happens to be gay, rather than a story that's about being gay.

I really can't agree more, personally. It's what I wanna read, it's what I wanna write. Not that there is no place for the other, but holy moly. It's almost they same way that I can't read straight (not a pun, but why not) up romance, that is only about that one aspect of someones life, straight or gay. Um, more please?

AyJay · Apr 8, 2010

Ditto, absolutely, yes - great thread! This is something I think about frequently. There is a "burden" on minority writers, of any stripe, to depict their experience as "realistic," while writers in the majority never get asked such questions as: what are you saying about heterosexual people? (or white people, or men, etc.) when they write about heterosexuals who are flawed, or heroic, or villains. So, what do we do...We keep writing our stories and believing that there are readers out there who "get it," and for the rest, I think, adopting an attitude of let's agree to disagree.

MumblingSage · Apr 13, 2010

There is a "burden" on minority writers, of any stripe, to depict their experience as "realistic," while writers in the majority never get asked such questions as: what are you saying about heterosexual people?

On the other hand, there's a very real concern (justified or not) that majority writers who write minority characters might be accused or racism/sexism/homophobia/miscellanious sterotyping and douchebaggery. Every once in a while I'm overcome by the horrible feeling that I'm perpetuating sterotypes when, say, a gay character checks to see if his tie is on straight (he's so concerned about his appearance! How typical!). Then I try to slap myself out of it. But I do see this fear come up a lot in some of the fantasy-writer circles I hang in--to the point that I strongly suspect it's being used an excuse not to write minority characters.

shaldna · Apr 14, 2010

Ardent Kat said:
...Which brings me to the idea of "plausibility" in portraying a character who's gay/queer, but whose queerness is not a source of pain or conflict. Some slam such ideas as escapism, infantalizing, or overly idealistic. Others say they're not interested in reading LGBT fiction because it's always so damn depressing/moralizing.

I get what you are saying. None of my gay friends agonise particularly over their sexuality. For some of them it was more difficult to come out than others. I have one friend who didn't come out to his mother until after his dad died. He was never going to tell them. Then loosing his dad made him really think, and he decided that he had to tell his mother because he didn't want to loose her one day without her knowing who he really was. It was a really tough time for him, but when he told her, and told her all his reasons for keeping it to himself etc, she was upset, and confused, and then very angry at him - mainly because he had kept it to himself instead of telling her.

Maybe its a cultural thing though, I don't know. But I know that I'm pretty tired of it being assumed that if you're gay then you must be filled with some internal angst. Most people seem to loose the angst after coming out. For the people I know it was a relief.

mirandamiranda · Apr 24, 2010

Just wanted to say that I have for a while been wanting to write something with a gay character almost as a periphery - just as you might have a heterosexual character and it is assumed that such a thing is normal/standard. Why does homosexuality have to be a problem or an issue especially when, as many have stated, we are writing fiction? It is often not an issue in real life, and surely it is a good thing if we want to focus on those elements of real life that we actually like. I'd love to see more writing that accepts homosexuality as a normal part of life rather than a hurdle to be fought against. This is not to diminish the many struggles that I'm sure many gay people must face; but they should not be defined by such.

efreysson · Apr 25, 2010

My two cents:

I'm not gay and I don't especially seek out gay fiction, but when I do come across a gay character in fiction and it isn't all about angst and drama and misery I find it refreshing. Partly because I wish mankind would just leave discrimination behind already, and partly because I just can't stand angst-porn.
This is especially true in fantasy, because I read fantasy to enjoy interesting adventures and spectacular characters performing heroics . . . not to cringe and shake my head at humanity's stupidity.

So yeah, escapism is good.

Modeling? Escapism vs. Realism

Ardent Kat

Kill your television

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Bookewyrme

Imagined half of it.

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

Mara

Clever User Title

friendlyhobo

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

friendlyhobo

lachlan

I've been around the block.

friendlyhobo

AyJay

Luv's Conscript

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

mirandamiranda

efreysson

Closer than ever