When is too late to introduce the main conflict?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Imbroglio

PERPETUAL EXISTENTIAL CRISIS VICTIM
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
3,904
Reaction score
123
Location
a dank man cave, yo
I feel like I know what you guys are going to say.

I read a lot of the threads and the consensus is like, you know, bring it in in the first page and you'll be fine.

I'll tell you what my deal is though. In my book, I start it out setting up a lot of things before really diving into the main conflict of the book.

The first chapter tells of how my MC finds the magical artifact that's going to play a big deal in the story, a VERY big deal, and up until chapter 9, the book spends some time building my characters, my world, and introducing some of the villains and minor themes.

However, until Chapter 9, and it's actually the current chapter, I didn't realize that the main conflict hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's because it really can't. I've been letting my older sister read the book, and she said that so far she's been fine with it, since I've been hinting faintly, but I feel like I should... I don't know, have a heavier emphasis on it.

I guess what I'm asking is, as long as I'm able to keep the reader's interests with minor conflicts before I introduce the major one, is that all right? And is eight chapters before that happens simply too much?
 

The Black Ghost

Specter of the Path
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
73
Reaction score
2
Keeping the reader's interest is most important. A lot of people would say you should follow a certain "format" but I think that writing is about being creative and doing things that are unique. Many great works in writing have strayed from the norm.


--Keep in mind however, that the main conflict cannot be really forced at any one point. You have to build up to it if you're going to do it that way. You say you have already been hinting at things and showing off villains---so it seems to me that you already have introduced the conflict as at least an underlying thing.


I guess I would have to know more details about what the conflict actually is to understand if it would work.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
I have an epic fantasy project (yes, it's a trilogy dammit) where I never introduce the "main" conflict at all. Of course, I do have a conflict that matters a great deal to the characters, but that’s neither here nor there… or maybe it is.

One thing to consider here is what you mean by “main conflict”. Surely, in nine chapters the characters have run into some sort of conflict. Otherwise, how can you build their characters? It doesn’t matter whether this is the main conflict or not, as long as it’s enough to keep the reader reading.

For a published example, Steven Erikson doesn’t introduce the main conflict explicitly in any single one of his Malazan books, but there’re still plenty of “minor” conflicts to keep the story running, and over time, the main conflict comes into focus. If he can go seven books without introducing that main conflict, you can go nine chapters. :)

If you assume the common rule that every character is the MC of their own story, each character has their own “main” conflict, and the main narrative conflict is the point of tension where all these character conflicts come together.

A little secret for you: As long as you have some thread of the main conflict early in the story, you can wait quite a long time before you introduce the main conflict itself to the readers.
 

PoppysInARow

Book Reviewer y'all
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
1,281
Reaction score
159
Location
Between the pages
I like the major conflict to kick off from the first page. Really give me the reason for reading. But you know, that's just me.

Maybe the MC's main conflict is actual his lack of a girlfriend. "That big scary demon thing? Who cares? The real problem here is I can't get laid!"

Carry on....
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,029
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
As long as you have a conflict to keep interest, the main one doesn't have to be on the first page.

Thing is what is the main conflict for the Character is not always the main conflict for the Plot ( though the best are intertwined / related). In fact having two main conflicts, one of each, can be helpful ( and much better for screwing over your characters with :D)

For instance one of mine starts with a character being bullied, again, because she looks different. This character conflict leads onto ( and ties in with) the Plot Main conflict, which is related but different and comes in later. In another, an incoming famine is the initial conflict ( Plot related) but theone of the majorconflicts in the book is Character based - which is introduced at the end of chapter 4 - because the reader needs to know beforehand why this is such a disaster for this particular character, when it wouldn't be for almost anyone else.

So, the initial conflict need not be the Main Plot conflict, but it should probably at least a major subplot ( ie Main conflict for character) and it's even better if it's related / intertwined somehow with the Main Plot Conflict

If it isn't important to the character or the plot, it might be fluff. ( note the might. Obviously it's hard to tell without reading it!) But if your Main Plot Conflict isn't appearing till chapter 9, you need some good Character Main Conflict to keep the reader going. Just make sure you don't drop it when the new, shiny Main Plot Conflict comes along.

But I haven't had my tea yet, so....
 
Last edited:

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
Don't bring your main conflict onto the first page. You can't sell it to the reader until the reader cares about the characters and understands why the conflict is important.

What you need on your first page is bridging conflict -- conflict that makes us love your main characters and understand them. After that's happened, you can introduce your main conflict, though you don't have to be obvious about it.

E.g. Captain Glaxnor is eventually going to try and save the universe from the Nanoids, but when we meet him he first has to get his space-ship out of a planetary pawn-shop.

To answer your question directly: it's too late to introduce your main conflict once the reader is invested in the answer to some other question. This can occur if some other question starts creating more change in your main characters than the main conflict has.

For example, suppose that Glaxnor has a mind-parasite that's gradually taking him over. Whatever else goes on, he spends his time wrestling with this creature and we gradually learn that the creature feels awful about destroying him. If their mutual struggle starts to change them, then as readers we'll grow irritated and distracted if we find that he also has to fight the Nanoids. No matter how challenging that external goal, it's not going to change him as much as his struggle with the parasite.

On the other hand, if he gets his ship out of the pawn-shop, then goes to fight the Nanoids, then gets diagnosed with mind-parasitism, so that his internal conflict is hanging over him until after the Nanoid fight is done, I think you won't find the same contention.
 
Last edited:

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
41
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
Your main conflict doesn't need to appear on the first page, but you need to introduce something in the first paragraph to keep the reader turning pages. Others have suggested some secondary conflict; you could also use tension of various sorts. Never underestimate tension's ability to drive scenes. Causing the reader to ask questions (and not answering them just yet) is also an effective technique.
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
Not being picky SP, but what sort of tension is there other than conflict or threat of conflict?
 

Sevvy

Spec Fic Writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
595
Reaction score
36
Location
New York State
I'll tell you what my deal is though. In my book, I start it out setting up a lot of things before really diving into the main conflict of the book.

The first chapter tells of how my MC finds the magical artifact that's going to play a big deal in the story, a VERY big deal, and up until chapter 9, the book spends some time building my characters, my world, and introducing some of the villains and minor themes.

It sounds like you have a plot thought out, and you know where your story is going (hence why you introduce that artifact in the beginning that has purpose down the road). I think what you might actually be sensing as a problem here is the fact that you need eight chapters to introduce your characters and world before you are getting into the main conflict. Unless these are short short chapters, then disregard everything I say here.

While the reader does need some background info, it doesn't need to be introduced until it's needed in the story. Let the reader get to know the world and the characters throughout the book, rather than what sounds like an info dump that's eight chapters long. If you cut that stuff out and space it out more organically through the text, your current chapter nine moves closer to being chapter two or three.

But again, I haven't read it, I'm just going off of what you posted here. If I'm completely wrong, feel free to say so.
 

Makai_Lightning

Love Addict
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
538
Reaction score
51
From looking at the way the plots to my novels turn out, the general pattern I notice is I start with a more minor conflict at the heart of my characters problems, with the "main conflict" as a minor conflict or as not a conflict at all yet, and then they merge, escalate into influencing each other and the main conflict eventually takes precedence, or the resolution to the minor conflict ignites the problem with the main conflict. I only rarely start outright with the "big main conflict" as the thing that starts out my characters problems, but that's just me.

In a sense I'd say it's like my characters start treating the symptoms before the start treating the disease, either because they don't know they aren't hitting the disease yet, they don't know how, or they're not ready to yet. I don't think you ever have to start immediately with the one big problem, but if you don't do something that in some way deals with it until a really good way into it all, then as a reader you might be annoyed or disappointed.
 

Bookewyrme

Imagined half of it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
4,859
Reaction score
408
Location
Home Sweet Home
Website
bookewyrme.straydreamers.com
Raymond Feist didn't introduce his 'main' conflict for something like 15 books. There was plenty of large-scale conflict, and you get to know those characters that are involved quite well, and he certainly makes it seem like the main conflict. But each book reveals some new aspect of the conflict, until several trilogies later you finally find out what it's all about.

I'd say, bring in the conflict when it's appropriate to the story and not before. If it's a long time, just make sure there's something there to keep the reader going till the conflict.
 

zornhau

Swordsman
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
1,491
Reaction score
167
Location
Scotland
Website
www.livejournal.com
I feel like I know what you guys are going to say.

I read a lot of the threads and the consensus is like, you know, bring it in in the first page and you'll be fine.

I'll tell you what my deal is though. In my book, I start it out setting up a lot of things before really diving into the main conflict of the book.

The first chapter tells of how my MC finds the magical artifact that's going to play a big deal in the story, a VERY big deal, and up until chapter 9, the book spends some time building my characters, my world, and introducing some of the villains and minor themes.

However, until Chapter 9, and it's actually the current chapter, I didn't realize that the main conflict hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's because it really can't. I've been letting my older sister read the book, and she said that so far she's been fine with it, since I've been hinting faintly, but I feel like I should... I don't know, have a heavier emphasis on it.

I guess what I'm asking is, as long as I'm able to keep the reader's interests with minor conflicts before I introduce the major one, is that all right? And is eight chapters before that happens simply too much?

Is this what you're really doing? Or is chapter 9 the point at which the conflict behind the main conflict is revealed?
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
Conflict is between sides, tension is between outcomes.
Nice expression, but I think it's only half-true. Flip a coin. Whether it comes heads or tails, it's hard to find any tension.

Now flip a coin with a gun at your temple. You get shot on heads, but go free on tails. Suddenly there's tension, created by a situation you don't want to be in.
www.etymonline.com said:
conflict (v.)
c.1430, from L. conflictus, pp. of confligere "to strike together," from com- "together" + fligere "to strike" (see afflict). The noun also dates from mid-15c. Psychological sense of "incompatible urges in one person" is from 1859 (hence conflicted, pp. adj.); Phrase conflict of interest was in use by 1743.

So conflict is between sides (even sides within ourself), but tension is only between outcomes when there's conflict.
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
41
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
Can't agree, Ruv, though I think I see where you're coming from. We appear to have vastly different writing styles--no surprise there. For my work, the distinction is neatly parallel to that between Swain's scenes and sequels. Oversimplifications are illustrative:

- in a scene, there's a POV character with a clear goal opposed by some antagonist, possibly herself, and the scene usually ends with a disaster; but

- sequels cover that character's emotional/psychological/internal reaction to what happened in one or more scenes, and tension grows from, for example, the anticipation of choice and outcome.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Nice expression, but I think it's only half-true. Flip a coin. Whether it comes heads or tails, it's hard to find any tension.

Now flip a coin with a gun at your temple. You get shot on heads, but go free on tails. Suddenly there's tension, created by a situation you don't want to be in.


So conflict is between sides (even sides within ourself), but tension is only between outcomes when there's conflict.

I’m sorry, I worded that badly. Replace tension with suspense. Tension underlies both conflict and suspense.
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
I’m sorry, I worded that badly. Replace tension with suspense. Tension underlies both conflict and suspense.
I'd swap them a bit: conflict underlies tension and suspense -- tension is unresolved conflict, and suspense is what happens when you prolong tension.
Unresolved outcome: you flip a coin
Conflict on the outcome: you get shot on heads
Tension on the outcome: you've flipped the coin, but don't yet know which side it came up
Suspense: it landed on the floor and rolled under the couch. Meanwhile, the phone rings.
That covers action (what SP called 'scene'). But what about sequel?
sequels cover that character's emotional/psychological/internal reaction to what happened in one or more scenes, and tension grows from, for example, the anticipation of choice and outcome.
In sequel, tension emerges from internal conflict. This happens when you must pick between bad choices -- i.e. it's a dilemma. E.g. the hero's girlfriend is being held hostage across town and will be killed in ten minutes, but the hero knows that a busload of schoolkids is about to be blown up.

Unresolved outcome: are the kids or girlfrind going to be saved?
Conflict on the outcome:hero wants to save both
Tension on the outcome:we don't yet know which the hero will choose
Suspense: just as the hero makes his choice, he's caught in a traffic-jam​

The inner conflict creates the tension. Changing circumstances can suspend resolution.
 
Last edited:

Falen

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
51
Reaction score
1
Location
White Bear Lake, MN
Website
falenformulatesfiction.blogspot.com
I guess what I'm asking is, as long as I'm able to keep the reader's interests with minor conflicts before I introduce the major one, is that all right? And is eight chapters before that happens simply too much?

If you're super worried about it, could you add in some foreshadowing? perhaps in your hook?

If you have a good hook and it's got some nice foreshadowing to the greater conflict, well readers will stick around because they know something's coming.
 

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,611
Reaction score
7,289
Location
Wash., D.C. area
My gut tells me that if you keep the reader's interest you're good. Putting the main conflict on the first page (IMO) turns your book into a screenplay. Not bad in itself, but there is so much more we can do with novels.

My current WIP (nearly cut down to size!) is travel fiction, and the characters must go to some places before they meet the bad guy. Along the way, I foreshadow the main conflict, so that it's not a total surprise (if you catch all of the foreshadowing) when the characters get kidnapped. We'll see how well it works once I'm done.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
I'd swap them a bit: conflict underlies tension and suspense -- tension is unresolved conflict, and suspense is what happens when you prolong tension.
Unresolved outcome: you flip a coin
Conflict on the outcome: you get shot on heads
Tension on the outcome: you've flipped the coin, but don't yet know which side it came up
Suspense: it landed on the floor and rolled under the couch. Meanwhile, the phone rings.
That covers action (what SP called 'scene'). But what about sequel?

In sequel, tension emerges from internal conflict. This happens when you must pick between bad choices -- i.e. it's a dilemma. E.g. the hero's girlfriend is being held hostage across town and will be killed in ten minutes, but the hero knows that a busload of schoolkids is about to be blown up.

Unresolved outcome: are the kids or girlfrind going to be saved?
Conflict on the outcome:hero wants to save both
Tension on the outcome:we don't yet know which the hero will choose
Suspense: just as the hero makes his choice, he's caught in a traffic-jam​

The inner conflict creates the tension. Changing circumstances can suspend resolution.


So, you wouldn't call it a tense situation if we're wondering whether the boulder's going to smash our sculpture or not? I'm not sure I see the conflict in that; you seem to have a very wide definition of it, though, so maybe you can help me.
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
So, you wouldn't call it a tense situation if we're wondering whether the boulder's going to smash our sculpture or not?
A conflict need not be between two characters or one character and itself. It can be between a character (what it wants) and reality (the present situation). This happens for instance, in Hemingway's classic The Old Man and the Sea -- the old man is a fisherman, but he hasn't caught a fish.

Please recall that the etymology of 'conflict' means 'things hitting things'.

When the conflict is character-vs-environment or character-vs-situation, it's also interesting to note that the environment or circumstance is often written as a character. Emotions are often ascribed to it, sometimes motives and intentions. Lightning 'strikes the ground', thunder 'roars', the sea 'heaves restlessly', the steering on a car can be 'wilful'. We don't just misunderstand road-signs, they 'deceive us'. We tend to personify objects whenever our desires conflict with their nature. Then other objects become 'allies' in the conflict -- a sword becomes 'trusty', a GPS becomes 'comforting', our engine 'eager'. So although conflict can be character vs situation, writing it for drama often makes it character vs character anyway.
 
Last edited:

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I'd have to read it. On one hand, I like novels that build and I don't mind a slow beginning. OTOH, I've been frustrated recently by books that are all hints and no Now. I don't like collecting hints for hundreds of pages if that's all I'm doing as a reader. These are hints you can't figure out, btw, not like a mystery.

What you have going on before the reader knows the main conflict is crucial, imho. The writer in you my think it's clever, but the reader won't necessarily trust that the payoff is going to be worth the tease. They don't know the payoff yet!

Give some direction or urgency to what is going on 'now,' always, imho.
 

jruby

Procrastinator Extraordinaire!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
71
Reaction score
4
Like others have said, I don't think you've got a problem here. When I'm reading, what matters is that my interest is held - and that doesn't necessarily mean with the big, main conflict.

I would advise just making sure there's some sort of conflict - like Ruv Draba mentioned about a "bridging conflict".
 

Dale Emery

is way off topic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
1,429
Reaction score
311
Location
Sacramento CA
Website
dalehartleyemery.com
However, until Chapter 9, and it's actually the current chapter, I didn't realize that the main conflict hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's because it really can't.

How many chapters will you have? How big are the chapters so far -- or what's your current word count?

I'd likely be nervous if my main conflict were not clear a quarter of the way through the book.

Through chapter 9, do you show some elements of the MC and the setting that would seem to the reader to be unsustainable? A storm brewing, or a character flaw on the verge of erupting into dysfunction, or something like that? Those things can help foreshadow the main conflict, so that even if readers haven't seen the main conflict yet, they know it's coming, and they have some inkling of its likely nature. Especially if those rickety elements end up being central to the main conflict.

Dale
 
Status
Not open for further replies.