Anything but Patriarchy

Ardent Kat · Jan 13, 2010

This thread is for anyone interested in writing SF/F matriarchies, gender egalitarianism, or any other system outside the usual patriarchy. What published books have you read with these themes? What worked best and what didn't work as well? What book would you LOVE to read if it only existed?

Have you written matriarchies or gender-egalitarian societies into your fiction before? How did you make it work? How can others help you brainstorm ideas or flesh out your WIPs? What made you interested in writing/reading from a non-patriarchal perspective in the first place?

Everyone is invited to share and discuss, but let's please keep on topic. If you're not interested in writing or reading non-patriarchal fiction, this is not the thread for you. We want to hear from writers who are up to the challenge of making these alternate societies work!

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 13, 2010

I can't think of an equal society I've read about that didn't work (at least, that didn't work for the reason of being equal). Almost all the science fiction I read is about equal societies.

I was originally inspired to write matriarchies because I couldn't find any books that did work for me. People always seem to feel that the book needs to be all about the fact it's taking place in a matriarchy, instead of an interesting story which just happens to take place in a matriarchy. My current main WIP is just a story about magical terrorism which happens to take place in a matriarchy. Most of the cast is female and I make no attempt to shoe-horn in a strong male character to placate people. The male character with the largest part is the MC's fiance, who's very bright but also submissive to her and and completely satisfied with his place in society.

Right now I'm trying to work out a new matriarchy, which will be the most extreme one I've ever written. They made a brief appearance in one book already, but I have no history or explanations of their society.

Kat, you should answer some of your own questions. I'd love to hear more about your societies.

Canotila · Jan 13, 2010

Weren't the mulefa in The Amber Spyglass matriarchal? I don't have a copy so can't check up on it, but remember them being that way. They weren't humanoid though. I got the impression that Pullman patterned them off elephants (who are also matriarchal).

I don't really go out of my way to find or write matriarchal societies, but I can't remember finding one that struck me as being implausible.

DeleyanLee · Jan 13, 2010

The rulers of the "hero" country in my present MIP are a king and queen. The king is responsible for the defense of the nation. The queen is responsible for the administration and running of the nation. The queen can take any man as a lover that she wants. The king is greatly encouraged to do as he pleases, but not to spawn. There is no concept of a "royal marriage". The king and queen are always brother and sister. Their heirs will be children of the queen.

That's is the part that's important to the story I'm telling.

Children can claim whichever (or both or neither) parent they want to in naming themselves, but property goes through the maternal line. Men and women have things they are best at, as genders and as individuals. I don't ignore that basic fact to create the society, but I don't dwell on it either. It's just background that's reflected in the genders of various characters I need as I write.

I've created matriarchies in the past and have been generally dissatisfied with them so the books they spawned never got finished. Usually I write historical fantasy, so patriarches are pretty much the standard for the setting. Which is one of the reasons I like writing them--"quiet women never made history."

Deleted member 42 · Jan 13, 2010

DeleyanLee said:
The rulers of the "hero" country in my present MIP are a king and queen. The king is responsible for the defense of the nation. The queen is responsible for the administration and running of the nation. The queen can take any man as a lover that she wants. The king is greatly encouraged to do as he pleases, but not to spawn. There is no concept of a "royal marriage". The king and queen are always brother and sister. Their heirs will be children of the queen.

That's is the part that's important to the story I'm telling.

Children can claim whichever (or both or neither) parent they want to in naming themselves, but property goes through the maternal line. Men and women have things they are best at, as genders and as individuals. I don't ignore that basic fact to create the society, but I don't dwell on it either. It's just background that's reflected in the genders of various characters I need as I write.

I've created matriarchies in the past and have been generally dissatisfied with them so the books they spawned never got finished. Usually I write historical fantasy, so patriarches are pretty much the standard for the setting. Which is one of the reasons I like writing them--"quiet women never made history."

What you've got is a matrilineal culture--those have been used quit a lot in history and in fiction.

Judaism is matrilineal; if a mother is Jewish, her children are Jewish.

A number of royal dynasties have been matrilineal. It's a lot easier to trace the mother of a child than a father.

DeleyanLee · Jan 13, 2010

Medievalist said:
What you've got is a matrilineal culture--those have been used quit a lot in history and in fiction.

Judaism is matrilineal; if a mother is Jewish, her children are Jewish.

A number of royal dynasties have been matrilineal. It's a lot easier to trace the mother of a child than a father.

Yep, I'm aware of these. But it's amazing how many people I talk to can't comprehend that it's not the king's son, but the king's nephew that will inherent his throne. Like it's a completely foreign concept to them.

But I don't consider it a matriarchy as people seem to imply the term--that women are automatically in charge or that the genders are flipped in some way. Of course, I could just have a wrong connotation for the term. Always a possibility.

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 13, 2010

DeleyanLee, your society sounds really well thought-out and plausible. I particularly like this part.

Children can claim whichever (or both or neither) parent they want to in naming themselves, but property goes through the maternal line.

Passing property through the maternal line only makes sense, because, unless you have DNA testing, there's no way to prove paternity.

I've struggled with the family names in the equal society which features in one of my WIPs, though. Should the married couples each keep their pre-marriage surnames? If not, how do you decide which surname gets taken by the couple? If both keep their pre-marriage names, then what are the children's surnames? Should they get to choose which name they want at a certain age, or should all the daughters take the mother's name and all the sons take the father's? None of this would really matter, except that in this particular society family legacy is extremely important because all the political power is held by the old 'legacy blooded' families. Blah. I honestly think matriarchies can be easier to write than these equal societies.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 13, 2010

DeleyanLee said:
Yep, I'm aware of these. But it's amazing how many people I talk to can't comprehend that it's not the king's son, but the king's nephew that will inherent his throne. Like it's a completely foreign concept to them..

There's a lot of mythology around the sister's son as heir and hero in Indo-European myths, going way way back to Hindu myths and laws, Greek myth, Celtic myths and laws, and Western European sagas.

It's there in Arthurian lit, and in Germanic cycle myth, and Old Norse sagas. It's all over the place in Celtic myth.

DeleyanLee · Jan 13, 2010

Chasing the Horizon said:
DeleyanLee, your society sounds really well thought-out and plausible. I particularly like this part. Passing property through the maternal line only makes sense, because, unless you have DNA testing, there's no way to prove paternity.

Thanks! I've actually made it up as I went along, so I'm glad it hangs together well.

I've struggled with the family names in the equal society which features in one of my WIPs, though. Should the married couples each keep their pre-marriage surnames? If not, how do you decide which surname gets taken by the couple? If both keep their pre-marriage names, then what are the children's surnames? Should they get to choose which name they want at a certain age, or should all the daughters take the mother's name and all the sons take the father's? None of this would really matter, except that in this particular society family legacy is extremely important because all the political power is held by the old 'legacy blooded' families. Blah. I honestly think matriarchies can be easier to write than these equal societies.

Remember that names reflect the cultures which create them. In this case, what the values of the culture are. Maybe a little reflection on that might help you figure out what to use.

Good luck.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 13, 2010

Terms:

Matriarchal

Matrilineal

Matrifocal or Matricentric

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 13, 2010

DeleyanLee said:
Remember that names reflect the cultures which create them. In this case, what the values of the culture are. Maybe a little reflection on that might help you figure out what to use.

Good luck.

Hmmm. They're really, really obsessed with the idea of legacy, because all their political power and most of their magic is held by the old legacy families. Maybe it would make sense for the whole family to take the name of the older, more powerful family. Yeah, I think I'll do it that way.

Thanks.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 13, 2010

You might look into Spanish naming conventions as a possible model.

geardrops · Jan 13, 2010

What would you call it when you kind of don't really want to deal with gender/race politics, so you kind of ignore it all?

Because that's what I'm doing. Or trying to, anyway. Not that culture is homogeneous or anything (far from). Just that no one really cares how you're born, just what you bring to the table.

(Personally I'm calling it laziness.)

Ardent Kat · Jan 13, 2010

DeleyanLee said:
The rulers of the "hero" country in my present MIP are a king and queen. The king is responsible for the defense of the nation. The queen is responsible for the administration and running of the nation. The queen can take any man as a lover that she wants. The king is greatly encouraged to do as he pleases, but not to spawn. There is no concept of a "royal marriage". The king and queen are always brother and sister. Their heirs will be children of the queen.

Interesting! I'd considered a system where the first-born is monarch, regardless of hir sex, but not where the siblings are co-rulers. In the case of disputes, does eldest win out? What if there are 7 siblings instead of just 2? What would happen in the event of all-girl or all-boy royal progeny (since their roles are gender-divided)? Could the king be allowed to reproduce, but his kids just have no title, or is there a reason this is discouraged? What is the rank of the queen's lover who helps with the baby-making? Can she have multiple lovers since paternity is unimportant?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm curious! =D

Lately, I've been interested in writing more fiction based on alternative sex roles seen in the animal kingdom (like Canotila's earlier observation about basing a society on the matriarchal system of elephants.)

I'm currently developing a short story based on the system of mountain goats. With goats, the entire herd is called a "nursery" made up of nannies (females) and their offspring. Billies (males) don't form their own society, but wander around solo and competing with each other in the pre-rut season. Come mating season, the two sexes come together, but the rest of the year, the ewes aggressively chase off the rams so there's very little contact between the sexes. (Except of course, the dependent nursery years when male and female kids are both included in the herd.)

I decided to make the story about centaurs rather than humans. I like writing not-quite-human characters and their unique POVs. I also think it's easier for readers to get their heads around alternative societies when they realize, "Oh, they're not human, so anything's possible."

Since nanny goats violently keep the billies away at all times except breeding season, I decided my centaur women would have to be warriors. It could make sense that they're better trained and equipped since they have the benefit of a society, while males are solo.

Why the women keep the men at bay all year is something I haven't decided yet. A culture of perpetuated misandry could explain a superiority complex on the part of the centaur women. They view men as inferior, and avoid all contact but the necessary breeding.
Alternatively, the men could strike out solo to make heroes and warriors of themselves to prove themselves to the women. (This would follow the mountain goat model well.)

Would male kids be expelled when they come of age, or would they strike out on their own choosing to become men? What sort of theology or code of honor would the men be following while they're out on their own? What social or environmental pressures prevent them from grouping together? Do they view each other as competitors or is there some sort of kinship between men?

What sort of society would develop among the all-women tribe? Would they form intimate same-sex relationships with one another? (I figure people still need love, but this wouldn't be between men and women since they barely interact all year) Would sex and love be viewed as completely unrelated things? Might the sex act be pleasureless with an equine lower half instead of human? How does that change things?

I'm not looking for answers, just using that as an example. I love dreaming this stuff up. There's a wealth of possibility for a speculative fiction writer just by choosing an animal species and exploring how it would look if that template were applied to humans. No social commentary that this society would be better or worse, but just exploring something vastly different. I find it incredibly interesting to consider variations like this. But then, I've always been drawn to the alien and never-heard-before elements of SF/F. If I just wanted to read about humans in a very human-like world, I'd be reading mainstream fiction.

sunandshadow · Jan 13, 2010

I'm interested by the concept of a society where the normal family pattern is not the nuclear one, particularly ones where two or more males have to share a female, and thus can't have that usual territorial jealousy thing going on. This might be a world where there is a shortage of females, or a world with high infertility, or a world where a family of only two adults just can't survive well, but ones with 4-6 adults do much better. The shortage of females concept could go two very different directions - are the women matriarchial queens, or are they their father's property, sold for a bride price or traded for a bride for one of their brothers?

Some other interesting possibilities are: A 3-gender species where all three need to cooperate to conceive a child. While the three might be 'monogamous' (bigamous?) permanent mates, on the other hand any two might want to raise children together and just grab a handy attractive person of the third gender for reproductive purposes, then send them on their way again. Or, a single-gender species where people are born male, remain male until age 25 or 30, then transform to female and remain female for the rest of their lives. That would mean every single heterosexual romance would be between a younger man and an older woman, and masculinity would be equated with being a teenager while femininity would be equated with being middle aged. Then of course hermaphrodite species are interesting; would larger and/or more popular individuals have a prejudice against getting pregnant, preferring to be 'studs'? Would they pair off, or live in communal clans, or would single-parent families be the norm?

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 13, 2010

Medievalist said:
You might look into Spanish naming conventions as a possible model.

OK, I'll google Spain, since I know absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing) about it.

Kat, I like the idea of a society where sex and love are completely separate things. Of course, my answer may not be objective because I HATE it when dominant female characters are portrayed as lesbians. It always strikes me as the author being unable to wrap their head around a man being willing to submit to a dominant woman. I'm sure you would never do it for that reason but it's a huge pet peeve of mine.

Also, if the genders were separated like that, I think the men would have to form close relationships with each other, because sentient creatures with human emotions need that connection. Maybe they would form into small tribes that acted like families, and the tribes would then compete with each other.

I wonder what sorts of events or cultural evolution could lead to extreme misandry? I was thinking about that already today, because the new matriarchy I'm trying to build absolutely hates men. My fully-developed matriarchy is actually really nice to the men, as long as they stay in their social place and accept their gender role, but the new one is just cruel to them. I'm trying to think of an Earth patriarchy which is equally cruel to women and drawing a blank. Hmmm. What can lead to such hatred of an entire gender?

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 13, 2010

sunandshadow said:
I'm interested by the concept of a society where the normal family pattern is not the nuclear one, particularly ones where two or more males have to share a female, and thus can't have that usual territorial jealousy thing going on. This might be a world where there is a shortage of females, or a world with high infertility, or a world where a family of only two adults just can't survive well, but ones with 4-6 adults do much better. The shortage of females concept could go two very different directions - are the women matriarchial queens, or are they their father's property, sold for a bride price or traded for a bride for one of their brothers?

Some other interesting possibilities are: A 3-gender species where all three need to cooperate to conceive a child. While the three might be 'monogamous' (bigamous?) permanent mates, on the other hand any two might want to raise children together and just grab a handy attractive person of the third gender for reproductive purposes, then send them on their way again. Or, a single-gender species where people are born male, remain male until age 25 or 30, then transform to female and remain female for the rest of their lives. That would mean every single heterosexual romance would be between a younger man and an older woman, and masculinity would be equated with being a teenager while femininity would be equated with being middle aged. Then of course hermaphrodite species are interesting; would larger and/or more popular individuals have a prejudice against getting pregnant, preferring to be 'studs'? Would they pair off, or live in communal clans, or would single-parent families be the norm?

These are some cool gender-bending ideas. The biggest problem I see with writing a species that has 3 genders or are all hermaphrodites is pronouns. He, she, and ????. I thought that for hermaphrodites you could perhaps use the set of gender-neutral pronouns from which Kat got 'hir', but those words aren't in the dictionary. I'm certainly not going to try to write an entire book using 'it' and 'they'.

How would a 3-gender species work physically? Would one gender bring the sperm, another the egg, and the third a uterus in which to carry the child? What other ways would 3 genders work, in theoretical science?

maxmordon · Jan 13, 2010

I really haven't thought about it deeply, but there's a culture for a future WIP I have been thinking around called the Azancians.

In a nutshell, they believe in two gods (mother moon and father sun) who created mankind giving them 3 attributes of each one of them and consider that their essence live inside each other and part of the point in life is to find a balance with these qualities; they, for example, consider Wisdom inherent of the women and Courage inherent of the men. Gender is not a matter while becoming a ruler in Azancia and the royal marriage rules equally as long as they are from different houses (to assure balance between the different provinces of Azancia) and also a balance between the couple's qualities: if the crown prince or princess si considered to have to lean too much among "moon" qualities, he's forced to marry a prince or princess who leans too much over "sun" qualities. Also, to provide even more power equality among the different regions (Azancia is pretty much several neighboring kingdoms who has each royal house ruling over a kingdom and one of them ruling over all) each generation the ruling house passes the power to the crown prince/ss of the next ruling house and so on.

The Oioku, who were slaves of the Azancians for centuries, mostly have an imposed egalitarian society since the Azancians pretty much burned all their books and cut their tongues and broke the fingers of those who could write pretty much effacing their culture, making them a culture of servants with a simplistic language where there are no pronounced gender difference except when is necessary to be specific and saying things like "male-person" or "female-person", not even their naming convention reflects gender but do refer servitude classification without giving individuality (Seventh Child of the Second Baker, First Child of the Fourth Fisherman, etc.) if the village is short of males, they simply start instructing the girls the work that is necessary to be done usually made by males, same thing on the reverse case if the village is lacking of girls. This has been seen on Albanian and Maori cultures, respectively.

Sorry, but I haven't gave this WIP much thought in a while, so, some things are fuzzy.

geardrops · Jan 13, 2010

Chasing the Horizon said:
How would a 3-gender species work physically? Would one gender bring the sperm, another the egg, and the third a uterus in which to carry the child? What other ways would 3 genders work, in theoretical science?

Nitpick: Gender != Biological Sex

The questions you're posing about a 3-sex system rely on the way a 2-sex system works, in that DNA is composed of 2 halves. Why can't it be a synthesis of 3 thirds?

maxmordon · Jan 13, 2010

Chasing the Horizon said:
OK, I'll google Spain, since I know absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing) about it.

Juan Pérez marries María López, now she becomes María López de Pérez. They have a son and a daughter, their names are José Pérez López and Mónica Pérez López. Pretty much like that.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 13, 2010

DeleyanLee said:
Yep, I'm aware of these. But it's amazing how many people I talk to can't comprehend that it's not the king's son, but the king's nephew that will inherent his throne. Like it's a completely foreign concept to them.

But I don't consider it a matriarchy as people seem to imply the term--that women are automatically in charge or that the genders are flipped in some way. Of course, I could just have a wrong connotation for the term. Always a possibility.

What happens if the queen gets too big of a get?

SilverBirch · Jan 13, 2010

The only books I can recall offhand that featured matriarchies are by Martha Wells (specifically City of Bones and the Fall of Ile-Rien trilogy - The Wizard Hunters, The Ships of Air and Gate of the Gods). The matriarchal society plays a very prominent role in The Wizard Hunters, and I found it fascinating, and a very welcome change from most fantasy. I seem to remember that Ms. Wells' background is in anthropology, and it shows - her cultures are very well fleshed out.

In my first story I tried for a gender-egalitarian approach - rule of my little city-state was dependent on royal bloodline regardless of gender. Looking back, I'm not sure how successful it was - I think it ended up more like Dempsey's society (i.e. authorial laziness). :tongue

sunandshadow · Jan 13, 2010

Chasing the Horizon said:
These are some cool gender-bending ideas. The biggest problem I see with writing a species that has 3 genders or are all hermaphrodites is pronouns. He, she, and ????. I thought that for hermaphrodites you could perhaps use the set of gender-neutral pronouns from which Kat got 'hir', but those words aren't in the dictionary. I'm certainly not going to try to write an entire book using 'it' and 'they'.

How would a 3-gender species work physically? Would one gender bring the sperm, another the egg, and the third a uterus in which to carry the child? What other ways would 3 genders work, in theoretical science?

Actually dempsey is correct, what I had in mind was a triploid species: each of the parents contributes one set of chromosomes. Specifically one has a womb which has a constant supply of 'sperm A' swimming around in it, one lays an egg package into the womb with an ovipositor, and the third is pretty much a typical male which deposits 'sperm B' into the womb with a penis. Also sex is not genetically determined, so there's no such thing as an X or Y chromosome, all individuals have the same chromosome set. Sex is environmentally determined (more or less random).

For pronouns, I wrote a story using genderless pronouns once but didn't really like it, so I decided to use she for the gender that gets pregnant and he for the two genders that don't. Similarly when I'm writing about hermaphrodies I prefer to use he for all of them. (I chose he instead of she for purely personal reasons - I'm attracted to males and find it much easier to write romance and sex when using male pronouns for characters.) Also, there's a notable subgenre of MFM erotic romance novels, I was vaguely thinking I could market it as that.

But, if you want to read a book which uses different pronouns to see how it can work pretty well, try Melissa Scott's Shadow Man.

DeleyanLee · Jan 13, 2010

Ardent Kat said:
Interesting! I'd considered a system where the first-born is monarch, regardless of hir sex, but not where the siblings are co-rulers. In the case of disputes, does eldest win out? What if there are 7 siblings instead of just 2? What would happen in the event of all-girl or all-boy royal progeny (since their roles are gender-divided)? Could the king be allowed to reproduce, but his kids just have no title, or is there a reason this is discouraged? What is the rank of the queen's lover who helps with the baby-making? Can she have multiple lovers since paternity is unimportant?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm curious! =D

No problem. I'm just happy I have answers.

Liosse de Velishaf said:
What happens if the queen gets too big of a get?

This is a Fantasy world, so the king and queen are chosen from the eligible siblings by the magical thrones created when the kingdom was first brought together. Doesn't matter how many the queen has (the present queen mother has 6 daughters and one son, for instance).

The queen's lovers have whatever the queen gives them while they're in favor and afterwards (rank, lands, position) and often remain as her inner circle of advisors. She can have as many lovers as she wants, the sire(s) of the new king/queen has a lot of bragging rights as well as a secured position in the next reign.

In this novel, the previous king DID reproduce and starts off the book by murdering the rightful king in a coup attempt, thus bringing to head some of the main fun of this particular story.

I've never dealt with the problem of the queen only having one gender because it's not important to this story. I'm assuming it hasn't happened yet. But, then, since there's magic involved in choosing the queen, the gender of her future offspring might be part of what the magic takes into consideration. One of the reasons I love magic--I don't have to explain it.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 13, 2010

See the aliens in Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis/Lilith's Brood triliogy.

Anything but Patriarchy

Kill your television

Blowing in the Wind

Sever your leg please.

Writing Anarchist

Deleted member 42

Writing Anarchist

Blowing in the Wind

Deleted member 42

Writing Anarchist

Deleted member 42

Blowing in the Wind

Deleted member 42

Good thing I like my day job

Kill your television

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Blowing in the Wind

Blowing in the Wind

Penúltimo

Good thing I like my day job

Penúltimo

I really should be writing

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Writing Anarchist

Deleted member 42