POV issues?

Jenifer

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I'll try to knock the details out of this and keep it as basic/simple as possible...

I'm having an issue with point of view in my WIP. Starting about a quarter of the way through, the action is essentially one long hallucination, interspersed with blips of reality presented as nightmares. It isn't obvious right away, but by the end of the story- well, hopefully, if I can keep my ducks scrubbed and in some sort of coherent order- it will be.

It occurred to me the other day that I shouldn't really be including scenes from other points of view. If the majority of it is a hallucination, the other characters would be supporting roles more than anything, and not exist in any substantial way outside of their direct interactions with the main character... clear as mud, right?

Any advice? I'd really like to continue as planned, with the primary characters getting their own scenes. It adds a little richness and, in the end, I'd like to be able to (once the main character starts to really suspect that something's brown in Cowtown) have them start reacting in ways that would raise more hurdles for the main character. Her suspicions would cause her subconscious to change the way the others act.

Thanks all! I don't post all that much, but I really enjoy this forum. You're all so helpful!
 

Maxinquaye

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Depends on how your world works. If it's something like Otherland by Tad Williams, but a hallucination instead of VR, then the chars count. But if all you're really writing about is an elaborate dream, where the other chars are part of the dream, then... they are figments of the mc's imagination.
 

Jenifer

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I'm sorry, I haven't read that book... :) So I'm not sure I understand you.

But yes, that's my point- that the other characters walk and talk only in the MC's imagination and so shouldn't be able to function outside of her direct presence. The MC takes a bad fall that nearly kills her and experiences recovery, rehab and overcoming the obstacles that come with those things- but begins to have nightmares in which she's back in the hospital and her situation is desperate. The "dreams" are just uncomfortable at first, but then they start to occur outside of sleep (and even predict versions of things that happen to her in her waking life). The three primary characters are her therapist (who diagnoses her with PTSD and remains involved throughout), her maybe-fiance and her best friend. All three are crucial to her recovery in their own ways, but as her dreams become more like visions and darker all the time, she starts to fear her seemingly pending death... I would LOVE to be able to allow her own crazy suspicions (perfectly justified, as it turns out) to alter the way her personal cast behaves- for instance the therapist might come to the conclusion that she's in danger of a psych break when she hits the point at which she THINKS she's going to die, become a danger to herself and others. He'll start to take steps towards an involuntary committal, etc.

The thing hinges on the idea that we might be able to experience overcoming our greatest obstacles in the days, hours or seconds before we die... that the heart can triumph while the body fails.

I don't know if I can do the thing justice without giving the other major players a little bit of time behind the wheel, but in the middle of all of this really unrealistic stuff, my little logic monkey is choosing THIS particular hatch to bang on. :p And someone taught the monkey to say, "Hey MORON," instead of, "I'm sorry, Dave."
 
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Maxinquaye

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Well, if you ask me, only people that your readers will and should root for should have their pov's.

Otherland is a trilogi about a "dreamworld", or virtual reality world, that you hook yourself into so as not to lead your normal mundane life, but partake in sort of 'Holodeck adventures'. It's a short circuit trick by Williams to get around the whole unbelievability factor of "oh it was only a dream". I guess. :)
 

Jenifer

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I guess I think of the three of them as part of the team that helps her get from point A to point B- and so I'd definitely be rooting for them, too... does that make sense? Looking at it a little more closely, the therapist would really only get one or two small POV pieces for the purpose of foreshadowing. The other two are top tier and very involved throughout.

Huh... sounds interesting! :) Thanks.
 

Monkey

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If the reader isn't crystal clear about what is hallucination and what is reality, I would keep all hallucinations from the POV of the one hallucinating.

Otherwise, you might leave your readers feeling mislead or even a bit cheated. I'm pretty sure that I would; I might even suspect that the POV changes were meant to throw me off the trail of what was really going on rather than to pull me deeper into the actual plot. (Obviously that's not what you're doing. But still.)

It's an interesting concept, and I wish you all the best with it. :)
 

Jenifer

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Thanks so much, you two!

Monkey, the cheated feeling is exactly what I was worried about. Eep! I hate coming to the end of the grisly entrails as a reader and thinking, "That makes NO SENSE!" My complete inability to let things go ruins books and movies for me on a regular basis. So I'm not sure it would be fair to ask readers, should I ever be blessed with any, to ignore the POV problem when I KNOW it would stick in my nose in a hurry.
 

Caitlin Black

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I wouldn't use the other characters' POVs - it is simply a hallucination, and that's a very personal thing. Ie. like you've said, it should only be something that the MC knows about.

I'd still read it regardless, but some people (such as yourself) would find the "this doesn't make sense" part too much. I always aim for re-readability, and something like this would make me not want to read it again, I guess.
 

kuwisdelu

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Who says hallucinations can't have POV?

Writers give imaginary people POV's all the time.

Why can't our imaginary people's imaginary people get POV?
 

backslashbaby

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Unreliable narrator territory! I love reading those :)

I think you could hint in the scene that the happenings are really what your MC is imagining. Very tricky! I like it :)

Now, I may have misunderstood. Do you also have scenes where you want reality to come out [or be hinted at] by real interactions with these other characters? That's more straightforward unreliable narrator stuff, so that should be fine.

We have some experts on that here on the forum. Hopefully they'll chime in.

There is a Japanese Magical Realism book that does some crazy stuff with reality that you might want to read. I'll be back when I can remember its $%$& name ;)
 

Lady Ice

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I guess I think of the three of them as part of the team that helps her get from point A to point B- and so I'd definitely be rooting for them, too... does that make sense? Looking at it a little more closely, the therapist would really only get one or two small POV pieces for the purpose of foreshadowing. The other two are top tier and very involved throughout.

Huh... sounds interesting! :) Thanks.

It seems to me that this will be a very character-driven piece. For you to pull it off, we ideally need to be in 1st person POV. When the chronlology/reality vs. illusion becomes confusing, as it will do, people will stick on if you have a strong emotive 1st person narrator.
If it's an illusion, she could always take on a sort of omniscient-narrator mode, or be able to witness events outside her experience. This allows you to show us more of the other characters whilst still keeping the hallucinating character as a central part of the action.
 

backslashbaby

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^^^ Nice :)

I remembered the author, but many folks hate this book. I'm just saying that I admire tricky tricky things :)

It's not Murakami, btw, although he's probably a much better suggestion!

Kazuo Ishiguro, The Unconsoled.

http://jaiarjun.blogspot.com/2004/10/kazuo-ishiguro-and-unconsoled.html

This is the sort of stuff I thougght might be helpful to ponder:

I have read the comments here and agree that the expansion and shrinkage of time Ishiguro employs is quite remarkable (though I had not associated it with surrealism so much as post-structuralism). but what of his merging of first person main character with narrator? Ryder not only follows the conversation between Stephan and Miss Collins into the house and through to other rooms, whilst remaining in the front seat of a car (we are reminded, by reference to Boris in the back seat), but he speaks with Stephan about something which he could not have known - the contents of stephans thoughts, a memory, and the details of the thoughts contained in that memory, as a matter of course.

this work engages us in a deconstruction of not only the literary narrative model, but to some extent, of our lved experience, and languaging of it. it overlaps with the non-linear dance of imaginings which is our experience as complex beings, the interplay of memory and space and time, much more than any linear depiction of reality. I like to think that this endeavour was purposeful!
 

shrimpsdad

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I seem to have a real issue. I have a solo main character. I am writing him in 3rd person with his POV. trying to stay off the omnisicient narrator path. I am finding that too many character have a POV that is tight. Is this a problem
 

WriteMinded

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I have noticed that many new writers believe it is necessary to add POVs to show/explain everything that is going on with every character in the book. It is impossible to know, without reading your MS, whether the other viewpoints add or detract. Maybe you should just write the book the way you see fit and see what betas say.
 

shrimpsdad

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Hey it works!!!
This is so cool. It is the first thread I have ever written/posted and your response was the first I have ever read. To start thank you for taking time out of your busy day to help someone with nothing no alterior motive. Such an altruistic act will be returned. I will purposfully go out of my way to something nice for someone else today. Really cool of you.
The issue I am having is caused by the main character being on a solo journey so everything that impacts him comes from other characters who he never comes in contact with. The woman that has been coaching me through my writing I guess you would call her an editor, told me it would be best to only have one or two POVs but after reading my ms she now feels I should limit it to five. I trust her completely and am sure that less is more but I am trying to learn the process so one day I can actually put 300 pages together and call it a novel. I did finish the novel but there are issues. Not so much story issues but technical issues like the POV and the use of "was". Passive voice is another problem. It is very hard to break this habit.
 

BethS

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what is a zombie thread

This one. It was started in 2010. Resurrecting zombies is generally frowned on here. :) Better to start a new thread. Which I think by now you've already done.